InVerse
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| #21 Posted on 24.7.10 0918.59 Reposted on: 24.7.17 0919.24 | Vince McMahon didn't kill ECW. Paul Heyman killed ECW. ECW died because it was an indy fed that tried to overreach and failed miserably. No matter who tries to resurrect it, even if it were Heyman himself, it's going to fail. Because the original failed. If the fans wanted ECW, ECW wouldn't have died in the first place. | lotjx
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| #22 Posted on 24.7.10 1142.49 Reposted on: 24.7.17 1143.23 | ECW was so terrible, WCW hired most of their wrestlers away and Vince funded them while taking their ideas along with the other wrestlers and their personalities that they developed in ECW. ECW also had a number of PPVS and TV time, indy feds can barely squeek that out unless its funded by Vince. ECW could have gone on longer, but with WCW going out, Vince decided to close up shop. Like Rhyno said in the DVD, "They weren't wrestling in empty arenas, so where did the money go?" WWE's version was a very pale product and somehow produced some talent while giving title reigns to Mark Henry, Vince and others who didn't fit the bill. I also agree NXT has been treated better, yet they are still gone in the fall after Smackdown comes in. WWE's ECW would have been fine if Heymen was allowed to book it and if people like Kurt Angel didn't see it as a job demontion. ECW failed for a number of reasons, but in my opinion it came down to Vince looking at the landscape and wanting to the Emperor of wrestling, so he pulled his funding from ECW and then neogatited with Spike which was ECW's network at the time for a large deal. I will agree Paulie put the company in the firing line due to bad booking and management, but Vince pulled the trigger.
(edited by lotjx on 24.7.10 1143) | El Nastio
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| #23 Posted on 24.7.10 1241.38 Reposted on: 24.7.17 1243.14 | Originally posted by lotjx ECW was so terrible, WCW hired most of their wrestlers away and Vince funded them while taking their ideas along with the other wrestlers and their personalities that they developed in ECW. ECW also had a number of PPVS and TV time, indy feds can barely squeek that out unless its funded by Vince. ECW could have gone on longer, but with WCW going out, Vince decided to close up shop. Like Rhyno said in the DVD, "They weren't wrestling in empty arenas, so where did the money go?" WWE's version was a very pale product and somehow produced some talent while giving title reigns to Mark Henry, Vince and others who didn't fit the bill. I also agree NXT has been treated better, yet they are still gone in the fall after Smackdown comes in. WWE's ECW would have been fine if Heymen was allowed to book it and if people like Kurt Angel didn't see it as a job demontion. ECW failed for a number of reasons, but in my opinion it came down to Vince looking at the landscape and wanting to the Emperor of wrestling, so he pulled his funding from ECW and then neogatited with Spike which was ECW's network at the time for a large deal. I will agree Paulie put the company in the firing line due to bad booking and management, but Vince pulled the trigger.
(edited by lotjx on 24.7.10 1143)
You're saying all of this as if it is a bad thing for someone to try and crush their competition. Isn't that one of the goals when you compete? You play to win.
Vince is nothing if not a fierce competitor. Anything less than him crushing his rivals with his foot would be unacceptable and possibly diminish his product.
| KJames199
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| #24 Posted on 24.7.10 1243.24 Reposted on: 24.7.17 1245.36 | Originally posted by lotjx ECW was so terrible
Not all the time.Originally posted by lotjx Vince funded them
An exaggeration! Vince paid Paul a consultant's fee, and I think there may have been a lawsuit settlement in there too. But Vince wasn't running ECW.Originally posted by lotjx ECW could have gone on longer, but with WCW going out, Vince decided to close up shop.
Well... Vince moved Raw from USA to TNN, so ECW didn't get their TV deal renewed. And Vince could afford to pay wrestlers more (or pay them at all). But Vince wasn't running ECW.
ECW was something special for a long time. It was very innovative for its time and was a home for a lot of wrestlers that would have had a harder time finding steady work in the US otherwise. But WWE and WCW kept signing away their guys and driving up talent costs, and once they lost their TV show, it was over. They couldn't stay small because they'd never get any long-term talent, but they couldn't grow quick enough to be competitive with the other two companies. Too big to be small and too small to be big.Originally posted by lotjx WWE's version was a very pale product and somehow produced some talent while giving title reigns to Mark Henry, Vince and others who didn't fit the bill.
Vince's ECW and Paul's ECW had nothing in common but the name - even at that, Vince's ECW was never "Extreme Championship Wrestling," just "ECW." There's no sense in overly comparing the two.Originally posted by lotjx WWE's ECW would have been fine if Heymen was allowed to book it and if people like Kurt Angel didn't see it as a job demontion.
Wow. | Quezzy
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| #25 Posted on 24.7.10 1310.37 Reposted on: 24.7.17 1311.12 | Originally posted by Matt Tracker Two thoughts regarding the ECW guys:
If Dixie is sincere that she heard the fans' demands for hardcore wrestling, there's no reason why it can't be done under the TNA banner. It just needs to be done simply -- no complicated cage rules, no wacky themes (barbwire ropes, etc). Let the guys innovate with props. That's what I want from hardcore wrestling. Blood, not so much. They don't have to be foolhardy. Let them be clever. If the WWE wants to punish people for using TIES, TNA can find a niche with the hardware.
Right. Beer Money/MCMG had two hardcore matches the last two weeks and I'm sure they can come up with some innovative stuff. An Abyss match doesn't go by without a prop. AJ Styles has shown he is willing to jump off any part of the building. I don't know why we need Foley, Stevie, Dreamer, etc there. If Dreamer or Foley was there as a host and someone like Raven was helping the wrestlers come up with matches then that would be cool, but the ECW guys wrestling? Not even RVD is that entertaining anymore and he's by far the most fit today.
TNA has ridiculous gimmick matches all the time and they even have a PPV of all cage matches. If their fans are still clamoring for hardcore wrestling then it means TNA sucks booking matches and shows. ECW guys aren't going to make it any better.
Dreamer gave a heartfelt speech. That's great, here's hoping that the PPV is three hours of heartfelt speeches.
Originally posted by OndaGrande Stop beating dead horses already.
Speaking of hardcore matches that sounds like a Russo special. "In each corner there will be a horse hanging from a pole. In the middle of the ring there will be a kendo stick..." | InVerse
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| #26 Posted on 24.7.10 1614.18 Reposted on: 24.7.17 1614.24 | Originally posted by lotjx I will agree Paulie put the company in the firing line due to bad booking and management, but Vince pulled the trigger.
So, by that logic, you're saying that Vince is also responsible for the failure of WCW? | Peter The Hegemon
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| #27 Posted on 24.7.10 2319.51 Reposted on: 24.7.17 2320.09 | Originally posted by lotjx ECW was so terrible, WCW hired most of their wrestlers away and Vince funded them while taking their ideas along with the other wrestlers and their personalities that they developed in ECW. ECW also had a number of PPVS and TV time, indy feds can barely squeek that out unless its funded by Vince. ECW could have gone on longer, but with WCW going out, Vince decided to close up shop. Like Rhyno said in the DVD, "They weren't wrestling in empty arenas, so where did the money go?" WWE's version was a very pale product and somehow produced some talent while giving title reigns to Mark Henry, Vince and others who didn't fit the bill. I also agree NXT has been treated better, yet they are still gone in the fall after Smackdown comes in. WWE's ECW would have been fine if Heymen was allowed to book it and if people like Kurt Angel didn't see it as a job demontion.
Apologies in advance if this comes off as mean...but this reads like you got your wrestling history from reading Inside The Ropes columns. (Yes, Bulldog used the name "Kurt Angel"...there's an example that just recently posted to The 7.)
ECW had a good run. They were never a true major fed, and they never really had a chance to be. But they made it further as an indie than anyone else ever had, they created a bunch of legitimate stars (not megastars or anything, but stars) for the major feds, and they definitely had an impact on the way wrestling was done. Saying it failed (and here I'm responding to InVerse, not to lotjx) is a bit like saying that The Ramones failed because they never had a top ten hit. | InVerse
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| #28 Posted on 25.7.10 1129.46 Reposted on: 25.7.17 1130.04 | Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon Saying it failed (and here I'm responding to InVerse, not to lotjx) is a bit like saying that The Ramones failed because they never had a top ten hit.
I don't think that's an accurate comparison at all. The Ramones didn't fall apart because they couldn't afford to remain a band, they chose to disband because they weren't satisfied with their level of success after 20+ years in the business.
ECW didn't even last a full decade and "disbanded" specifically because they couldn't afford to go on.
Nor did The Ramones ever show up at a recording studio and try to convince a band to let them record "Just One Last Ramones Album" under their moniker. | redsoxnation
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| #29 Posted on 25.7.10 1212.49 Reposted on: 25.7.17 1214.36 | Originally posted by Scottyflamingo .
What I'd like to see is Dreamer come out after the next Beer Money Vs. MCMG match and say something like, "You four guys never spent a day in ECW, but what you are doing is exactly what ECW was about. I'd like for the finals of your series to be at Hardcore Justice."
Beer Money has a 2-0 advantage. The series very easily could be over in a sweep before Dreamer could make the offer. One of these times a best of won't go the distance. If Heyman gets national TV 2-3 years earlier, maybe it is different. If Heyman doesn't decide a few months after getting national TV to waste half his show each week ripping Rock 'n Bowl and RollerJam, maybe everything is different. The AWA was influential. It's been dead 20 years. World Class was influential, it has been dead for 20 years. ECW was influential, it has been dead 10 years. Maybe next time TNA gets desperate for an idea (which, at the rate they are going, should be in 2 months), they can do a Memphis PPV. ECW: From young hungry guys looking for a chance (and Terry Funk) to Heroes of Wrestling. | JustinShapiro
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| #30 Posted on 25.7.10 1252.47 Reposted on: 25.7.17 1253.36 | Originally posted by BoromirMark when WWE ... had [Dreamer] drink tobacco spit and toilet water
Good post overall, I just wanted to point out that Tommy Dreamer Eats Garbage was all Tommy Dreamer's idea based on his real life feats of disgusting amazement to entertain guys backstage.
I don't know if Dreamer has a personal pro/con checklist of the nice moments and the bad moments but if he did its going to be leaning towards the bad.
That's fair, I just think it'd be less incredulous-sounding coming from someone like Rob Van Dam, who was still in his prime and was promised things that didn't come through and actually would've had a job in WWE from 2006-2010 had he wanted one if there were no ECW show.
There's no question ECW was misused terribly by WWE, but in some ways I think Dreamer is one of the less effective spokesmen on the subject, since his roster spot was very much a charity case because of the ECW show and because he was well-liked. Sadness of seeing his friends fired notwithstanding, the fact is that Sandman and Balls Mahoney weren't close to major league-level performers in 2007, and the one who was, Sabu, lost his job because of drug problems.
Getting that out of the way ...
I hardly think "Vince fucked ECW up the ass" is a controversial or factually untrue statement
... you can't disagree. He took a brand responsible for the biggest selling DVD in company history and a significantly above-average buyrate for a show with no matches advertised on TV and turned it .9's on SyFy. ECW Reborn! wouldn't have been sustainable, but there was a hot run it could've had in 2005-06 that was pretty much deliberately left on the table.
Originally posted by lotjx ECW failed for a number of reasons, but in my opinion it came down to Vince looking at the landscape and wanting to the Emperor of wrestling, so he pulled his funding from ECW and then neogatited with Spike which was ECW's network at the time for a large deal.
Well, WWF made the deal with Spike in May 2000, long before WCW went on sale that fall. I think the motivation for the deal was to sign a gigantic deal with Viacom, and ECW losing their network was collateral damage that WWF didn't feel that bad about. | OndaGrande
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| #31 Posted on 25.7.10 2148.44 Reposted on: 25.7.17 2148.45 |
Speaking of hardcore matches that sounds like a Russo special. "In each corner there will be a horse hanging from a pole. In the middle of the ring there will be a kendo stick..."
I would be all for that if it was Vince Russo, Eric Bischoff, Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash in cheaply constructed horse costumes in a 10 man match where the winner was the one who got the most hits in. | ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE |
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