It's False
Scrapple Level: 151
Posts: 2950/6155 EXP: 43059328 For next: 237248
Since: 20.6.02 From: I am the Tag Team Champions!
Since last post: 2199 days Last activity: 581 days
| #1 Posted on 20.11.08 0309.23 Reposted on: 20.11.15 0309.28 | After 18 seasons, Mussina calls it quits.
ESPN - New York Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina decides to retire
As expected, New York Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina has decided to retire, according to a baseball source with knowledge of the situation. Mussina informed the Yankees last week he would give them a decision by the end of this week.
Mussina, who turns 40 next month, spent the last eight seasons with the Yankees after pitching for the Baltimore Orioles for the first 10 years of his career. His 270 wins rank second among all active right-handers, behind only Greg Maddux. In the final start of his career, he pitched six shutout innings against the Boston Red Sox to finish off the first 20-win season of his career.
With no championships, one 20-win season, and 30 wins shy of the big "300" plateau, it'll be hard to make a HOF argument for Mussina. He might make it eventually, but it'll be a long while.
Hard to believe Mussina was one of the first lucrative Yankee free agent signings (that yielded a grand total of zero championships) of the decade. Seems like so long ago. Promote this thread! | | MisterHenderson
Boerewors Level: 43
Posts: 304/359 EXP: 550022 For next: 15029
Since: 3.5.06 From: New York
Since last post: 5274 days Last activity: 5193 days
| #2 Posted on 20.11.08 1144.22 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1144.22 | Loved Moose. Loved having him on the team. NOT a Hall of Famer. | StaggerLee
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 4096/7105 EXP: 53050011 For next: 1063222
Since: 3.10.02 From: Right side of the tracks
Since last post: 937 days Last activity: 937 days
| #3 Posted on 20.11.08 1427.10 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1427.20 | 270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?
He has more wins than: Sandy Koufax Bob Gibson Dizzy Dean Don Drysdale Bob Feller Whitey Ford Catfish Hunter Bob Lemon Juan Marichal Jim Palmer Hoyt Wilhelm
| spf
Scrapple Level: 144
Posts: 4494/5410 EXP: 35857830 For next: 852564
Since: 2.1.02 From: The Las Vegas of Canada
Since last post: 3069 days Last activity: 404 days
| #4 Posted on 20.11.08 1458.39 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1459.01 | Originally posted by StaggerLee 270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?
He has more wins than: Sandy Koufax Bob Gibson Dizzy Dean Don Drysdale Bob Feller Whitey Ford Catfish Hunter Bob Lemon Juan Marichal Jim Palmer Hoyt Wilhelm
ERA+ for those guys Sandy Koufax - 131 Bob Gibson - 127 Dizzy Dean - 130 Don Drysdale - 121 Bob Feller - 122 Whitey Ford - 133 Catfish Hunter - 104 Bob Lemon - 119 Juan Marichal - 123 Jim Palmer - 126 Hoyt Wilhelm - 146 (and 221 saves)
Mike Mussina - 123
I honestly did not know how this would turn out when I started looking for the numbers.
I think I would probably vote for him. | Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong Level: 88
Posts: 665/1782 EXP: 6607868 For next: 42822
Since: 11.2.03 From: Hackettstown, NJ
Since last post: 61 days Last activity: 30 days
| #5 Posted on 20.11.08 1551.33 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1551.35 | Originally posted by StaggerLee 270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?
He has more wins than: Sandy Koufax Bob Gibson Dizzy Dean Don Drysdale Bob Feller Whitey Ford Catfish Hunter Bob Lemon Juan Marichal Jim Palmer Hoyt Wilhelm
Was there any point where, if you were discussing the topic "who is the best pitcher in baseball right now?" you would have even mentioned Mussina? I think just about everyone on that list would have been in that conversation at some point. Gibson and Koufax, if not others, clearly were the answer to that question during part of their career. (An exception for Wilhelm, who wouldn't probably have come up in that conversation, but almost certainly was the best reliever of his time.) | Mr. Boffo
Scrapple Level: 124
Posts: 2648/3844 EXP: 21369130 For next: 467532
Since: 24.3.02 From: Oshkosh, WI
Since last post: 3895 days Last activity: 3856 days
| #6 Posted on 20.11.08 1614.30 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1614.51 | Originally posted by StaggerLee 270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?
He has more wins than: Sandy Koufax Bob Gibson Dizzy Dean Don Drysdale Bob Feller Whitey Ford Catfish Hunter Bob Lemon Juan Marichal Jim Palmer Hoyt Wilhelm
If wins are your criteria, then he can't get in until Bert Blyleven does.
Mussina just doens't stand out compared to his contemporaries (no Cy Youngs, 4 All-Star games). Not just Clemens (7 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, and 10 All-Star games) (who might not get in because of the steroid issue), but Randy Johnson (5 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars), Greg Maddux (4 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars), Pedro Martinez (3 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars), Schilling (no Cy Youngs, 6 All-Stars), Glavine (2 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars), and Smoltz (1 Cy Young, 8 All-Stars).
Do all these guys deserve to get into the Hall? Mussina has the 2nd-worst ERA+ of that group, behind only the 118 of Glavine. | BoromirMark
Potato korv Level: 59
Posts: 434/691 EXP: 1624083 For next: 49055
Since: 8.5.02 From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI
Since last post: 3271 days Last activity: 3271 days
| #7 Posted on 20.11.08 1628.33 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1629.01 | No vote for Mussina until Jack Morris gets in. | Big Bad
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 4871/7062 EXP: 53474635 For next: 638598
Since: 4.1.02 From: Dorchester, Ontario
Since last post: 1927 days Last activity: 1496 days
| #8 Posted on 20.11.08 1635.21 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1637.02 | Mussina is probably better than Morris, but neither are HOF-worthy in my book. Granted, I'm more of a small-Hall kind of guy, but still, I don't think Moose ever got further than the Very Good threshold and into the Great threshold. | djp
Morcilla Level: 55
Posts: 207/649 EXP: 1307031 For next: 7167
Since: 16.2.07 From: 3rd Floor, NW window
Since last post: 2633 days Last activity: 2536 days
| #9 Posted on 20.11.08 1707.04 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1707.55 | Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
Originally posted by StaggerLee 270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?
He has more wins than: Sandy Koufax Bob Gibson Dizzy Dean Don Drysdale Bob Feller Whitey Ford Catfish Hunter Bob Lemon Juan Marichal Jim Palmer Hoyt Wilhelm
Was there any point where, if you were discussing the topic "who is the best pitcher in baseball right now?" you would have even mentioned Mussina? I think just about everyone on that list would have been in that conversation at some point. Gibson and Koufax, if not others, clearly were the answer to that question during part of their career. (An exception for Wilhelm, who wouldn't probably have come up in that conversation, but almost certainly was the best reliever of his time.)
Unfortunately, longevity will often take the place of greatness. You can be great for a short period and get in to the Hall or you can be 'pretty good' for a long period and still get in, without ever being the best at any given point of time. Which discounts the HOF for only letting in 'the best'. When Craig Biggio retired, most analysts said that he is a shoe-in for the HOF, but was he ever the best player on his team, let alone in the league? Maybe on his team a few times, but his popularity and longevity far outweigh his greatness. Same with Moose. | Guru Zim
SQL Dejection Administrator Level: 152
Posts: 5041/6207 EXP: 44132165 For next: 169597
Since: 9.12.01 From: Bay City, OR
Since last post: 8 days Last activity: 15 hours
| ICQ: | |
| Y!: | |
|
| #10 Posted on 20.11.08 1804.02 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1804.18 | Biggio caught over 400 games in his first four seasons, and then was a SB / HR threat for the next 10 years. He was always one of the top guys at his position. Second Base just isn't a sexy position. | odessasteps
Scrapple Level: 140
Posts: 3097/5065 EXP: 32483370 For next: 803117
Since: 2.1.02 From: MD, USA
Since last post: 3571 days Last activity: 3538 days
| #11 Posted on 20.11.08 1819.39 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1820.28 |
When Craig Biggio retired, most analysts said that he is a shoe-in for the HOF, but was he ever the best player on his team, let alone in the league?
Wouldn't an argument like keep out most of the Big Red Machine, among others?
If Morgan is the best player on those teams, what about Bench, Rose and the rest?
And there's always Lou Gehrig, not the best player on his team, arguably. | jfkfc
Liverwurst Level: 74
Posts: 995/1179 EXP: 3639471 For next: 14090
Since: 9.2.02
Since last post: 2886 days Last activity: 2695 days
| #12 Posted on 20.11.08 1908.46 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1909.22 | Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon Was there any point where, if you were discussing the topic "who is the best pitcher in baseball right now?" you would have even mentioned Mussina?
I've always asked this question in any HOF discussion. There was a time where Moose was a premiere pitcher, and while I came to enjoy him as a Yankees fan, I may think of him as "a VERY good pitcher" rather than "an all-time great".Originally posted by Mr. Boffo Not just Clemens (7 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, and 10 All-Star games) (who might not get in because of the steroid issue), but Randy Johnson (5 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars), Greg Maddux (4 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars), Pedro Martinez (3 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars), Schilling (no Cy Youngs, 6 All-Stars), Glavine (2 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars), and Smoltz (1 Cy Young, 8 All-Stars).
Do all these guys deserve to get into the Hall? Mussina has the 2nd-worst ERA+ of that group, behind only the 118 of Glavine.
You know, you could make a realistic case for each of these guys getting into the HOF, as over the course of their careers, each was an elite pitcher....and not stating that just to make a case for Moose. | drjayphd
Scrapple Moderator Level: 126
Posts: 3286/4035 EXP: 22940230 For next: 143937
Since: 22.4.02 From: New Hampshire
Since last post: 766 days Last activity: 350 days
| ICQ: | |
| Y!: | |
|
| #13 Posted on 20.11.08 1933.47 Reposted on: 20.11.15 1934.10 | Originally posted by It's False With no championships, one 20-win season, and 30 wins shy of the big "300" plateau, it'll be hard to make a HOF argument for Mussina. He might make it eventually, but it'll be a long while.
The conventional wisdom seems to be that no one's gonna hit 300 again any time soon, so that plateau's out of reach for anyone. Although I wouldn't put it past baseball writers to hold someone to an absurdly high standard. The fact that he compares well with other Hall of Famers means I say yes, but he'll have to wait it out. | thecubsfan
Scrapple Moderator Level: 152
Posts: 2379/6203 EXP: 44086997 For next: 214765
Since: 10.12.01 From: Aurora, IL
Since last post: 947 days Last activity: 327 days
| #14 Posted on 20.11.08 2237.19 Reposted on: 20.11.15 2238.01 | Second Base just isn't a sexy position.
(female?) fans of the Phillies would disagree with you.
The conventional wisdom seems to be that no one's gonna hit 300 again any time soon
Randy Johnson: 295 wins. Never trust conventional wisdom! | MisterHenderson
Boerewors Level: 43
Posts: 305/359 EXP: 550022 For next: 15029
Since: 3.5.06 From: New York
Since last post: 5274 days Last activity: 5193 days
| #15 Posted on 21.11.08 0914.36 Reposted on: 21.11.15 0914.40 | Originally posted by StaggerLee 270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?
He has more wins than: Sandy Koufax Bob Gibson Dizzy Dean Don Drysdale Bob Feller Whitey Ford Catfish Hunter Bob Lemon Juan Marichal Jim Palmer Hoyt Wilhelm
All of these pitches dominated the game for most or all of their careers. Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team a lot of times. He was very good, but not Hall of Fame, good. He never dominated and he was mediocre in the post season. | StaggerLee
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 4100/7105 EXP: 53050011 For next: 1063222
Since: 3.10.02 From: Right side of the tracks
Since last post: 937 days Last activity: 937 days
| #16 Posted on 21.11.08 1526.50 Reposted on: 21.11.15 1527.32 | Originally posted by MisterHenderson
All of these pitches dominated the game for most or all of their careers. Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team a lot of times. He was very good, but not Hall of Fame, good. He never dominated and he was mediocre in the post season.
From the Baseball Writer's Association Hall of Fame Rules Page: #5 Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. http://www.baseballwriters.org/HOF_rules.html
Never once does it say that dominating the game was a prerequisite. THE PLAYER'S RECORD is the first thing mentioned. His RECORD shows he won more than a good number of people IN the HOF.
As far as post season, nearly half the players in the HOF never made it there. | DrDirt
Banger Level: 106
Posts: 2095/2743 EXP: 12422188 For next: 249796
Since: 8.10.03 From: flyover country
Since last post: 2345 days Last activity: 2247 days
| #17 Posted on 21.11.08 1550.59 Reposted on: 21.11.15 1551.31 | Originally posted by StaggerLee
Originally posted by MisterHenderson
All of these pitches dominated the game for most or all of their careers. Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team a lot of times. He was very good, but not Hall of Fame, good. He never dominated and he was mediocre in the post season.
From the Baseball Writer's Association Hall of Fame Rules Page: #5 Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. http://www.baseballwriters.org/HOF_rules.html
Never once does it say that dominating the game was a prerequisite. THE PLAYER'S RECORD is the first thing mentioned. His RECORD shows he won more than a good number of people IN the HOF.
As far as post season, nearly half the players in the HOF never made it there.
And how these selections are made is nebulous at best. Rules or no rules.
I agree with an earlier post. he shouldn't get in before Bert Blyleven. | StaggerLee
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 4101/7105 EXP: 53050011 For next: 1063222
Since: 3.10.02 From: Right side of the tracks
Since last post: 937 days Last activity: 937 days
| #18 Posted on 21.11.08 1558.18 Reposted on: 21.11.15 1558.25 | He shouldn't get in before Blylevin, who shouldn't get in before Morris. | TwisterF5
Italian Level: 37
Posts: 188/243 EXP: 324617 For next: 13639
Since: 18.2.04 From: The Houston 'burbs
Since last post: 3483 days Last activity: 3007 days
| #19 Posted on 26.11.08 0631.22 Reposted on: 26.11.15 0631.29 | I was thinking that Moose had at least 2 more good years left in him. Money was obviously not a factor in a possible return and kudos to him for wanting to spend a lot of time with his kids.
Thanks for the good years, Moose. | Big Bad
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 4875/7062 EXP: 53474635 For next: 638598
Since: 4.1.02 From: Dorchester, Ontario
Since last post: 1927 days Last activity: 1496 days
| #20 Posted on 26.11.08 1155.49 Reposted on: 26.11.15 1155.49 | Originally posted by StaggerLee He shouldn't get in before Blylevin, who shouldn't get in before Morris.
This argument doesn't make much sense to me. Blyleven was better than Morris in pretty much every conceivable statistical category. Game Seven of the 1991 Series was just one game (albeit a great one). |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |