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The 7 - Basketball - Vehemently Agree
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Stefonics
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#21 Posted on 13.6.02 1102.33
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1105.04

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan


    A 24 year old man would be effective against 8 year olds on a 9 foot rim. Is that man talented? Dominant and talented do not go hand in hand. Shaq is the most dominant player in the league, but he is no where near the most talented.



So you're comparing the rest of the league to 8 year olds? There is a huge problem with your logic. You see, these men get paid to play basketball. THEY ARE TALENTED. They are NOT 8 year old kids. But I digress.

Ah yes, people are bitter because Shaq and the Lake Show won their third straight title... surprise surprise. Well let's look at it this way Guru, if Vlade Douchebag was still on the Lakers and Shaq somehow was on the Kings, I think it's a safe bet that you'd be singing a completely different song.

Is Shaq the most skilled player in the league? For his size? YES. There is no one who can do all of the things that Shaq does, and not nearly as well. This is going to piss a whole boatload of people off, but Shaquelle Oneal is the greatest player ever to lace up a pair of Nike's.

What I don't understand about the espn column is the fact that the writer had the balls to say that if Shaq was 6'1 and 175 that he'd play THE EXACT SAME WAY HE DOES NOW. That might be the dumbest argument I have ever read. Here's the flipside of that argument: if Iverson was 7'2 350, he'd be trying to break the ankles of point guards a little more than half his size. He wouldn't rebound or play in the post at all. He'd take 40 chippy jumpers and perimeter shots per game. He wouldn't block shots. It's an insane argument.

And let me finish that I don't even LIKE the Lakers. I absolutely love the 6ers and Iverson.
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#22 Posted on 13.6.02 1135.50
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1139.20
Everyone travels in the NBA. Just watch the current commercial of Jason Kidd driving to the basket for a layup. He tucks the ball like a running back and takes two or three steps. Please, Shaq is just bigger than more talented than other centers in this league. No one gives him credit for improving as his career progressed. The first time he went to the finals he was exposed by Olajuwan(?) and since then has adapted his game and grown as a player.

If you are going to bitch about anything then complain about how the refs do not call games according to the rulebook. Don't just point the finger at one man because everyone gets the same calls.
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#23 Posted on 13.6.02 1300.27
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1300.49
I think that this article is pretty lame. I mean, what kind of argument is "Shaq can't play point guard" anyway? Guess what, Kidd, Kobe, Iverson, McGrady, etc. would make lousy centers too. Does that make them any less of a player? Shaq is more than a big klutz. The man does have a nice touch on his shot, can pass, does run, does block shots, etc. He's even getting pretty darn good at free throws. What else should a center do?

The thing I do hate is the star treatment for enforcing rules. That does suck, and lessens my enjoyment of the game. But that's not Shaq's fault. Blame the league and the referees. And Shaq is not near the only player that benefits from the star treatment. Virtually every team has somebody who gets the same benefit of doubt.
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#24 Posted on 13.6.02 1315.42
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1318.17
You are all focusing on the weakest point in the article and then dismissing the entire thing based on that argument.

Yeah, Shaq isn't a point guard. Still - should he be able to:

Routinely violate the 3 second rule
Charge
throw elbows
Bump and push guys around
Travel

I'm sorry - that's not what I consider "great". That's a guy who is given a set of "Jordan Rules" to play with. I hated it then and I hate it now. It's not fair and I won't watch it.
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#25 Posted on 13.6.02 1502.30
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1508.24

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    You are all focusing on the weakest point in the article and then dismissing the entire thing based on that argument.

    Yeah, Shaq isn't a point guard. Still - should he be able to:

    Routinely violate the 3 second rule
    Charge
    throw elbows
    Bump and push guys around
    Travel

    I'm sorry - that's not what I consider "great". That's a guy who is given a set of "Jordan Rules" to play with. I hated it then and I hate it now. It's not fair and I won't watch it.




O.K. The author makes five points aginst Shaq.

1-No game.
2-No skills.
To me, these are pretty much the same thing. His justification is that Shaq's stats and abilites as a 7 foot center wouldn't make him a good point guard. That is a horrible, horrible argument. 0-2

3-Shaq is bigger than anyone else. So he has an easier time getting above the rim. So it isn't fair.
Come on. I don't even know how to respond to that one. I guess all teams sould be looking for smaller guys who can shoot the three and have to jump high to get to the rim. 0-3

4-Shaq fouls on the way to the hoop. The main argument is the charge.
This is the best argument of them all. Because when Shaq goes to the hoop people fall down. But, it should go both ways. Every time someone slams into Shaq and he doesn't budge it should be a charge on them. But that foul isn't called either. People charge into Shaq all the time and no one calls anything because he doesn't flop to the ground. Still, charging is a problem. 1-4

5-Shaq travels.
This has already been covered. Everyone travels. It's not a set of "Shaq rules" because it is rarely called on anyone. And almost any player who posts up does the jump stop. Zo does it, Ewing did it, and everyone is going to keep doing it. 1-5

I still say this article is junk. Is it possible the author wrote it in jest?
haz
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#26 Posted on 13.6.02 1541.41
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1549.31

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    You are all focusing on the weakest point in the article and then dismissing the entire thing based on that argument.

    Yeah, Shaq isn't a point guard. Still - should he be able to:

    Routinely violate the 3 second rule
    Charge
    throw elbows
    Bump and push guys around
    Travel

    I'm sorry - that's not what I consider "great". That's a guy who is given a set of "Jordan Rules" to play with. I hated it then and I hate it now. It's not fair and I won't watch it.



You're kidding right!!!

1> 3 second rule - he gets called more than any other player in the league for this. But, come on, every other post player sits there like a big redwood tree as much as he does.

2> Charge and 4> Bump and Push guys... - I don't see the calls going any different for him than anyone else. I see defensive players flopping a lot more for him thats for sure.

5> Travel - covered by everyone else. There is no point for this rule in the NBA rulebook 'cause it ain't ever called.

3> Throw Elbows - again, I have not seen the situation any different for him than other players. It just may be that his elbows seem more obvious, I don't know. Certainly in the Final, Kenyon's elbows were up after every rebound, and I didn't see any calls for him either...


Now you're going to use the argument that Jordan is not great either. Now I understand. You know nothing about Basketball....
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#27 Posted on 13.6.02 1617.09
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1629.04
You cannot possibly deny the fact that Shaq INITIATES 99% of the contact with his opponents...He should NOT be allowed to dip his shoulder and just bull over opponents like he does. Someone posted the rule for this above and it explains that this is NOT LEGAL. Refs won't call it on him, however, cause if they called it once, they would have to call it EVERY time.

And the free throw shooting thing is absolutely laughable. He should spend less time making rap albums and shitty movies and start working at his foul shots. (yes I know he's made a DRAMATIC improvement in the playoffs, but just wait til the beginning of next year...back to 50%) Anybody that's ever played organized basketball in their lives should at the least be able to hit 65% of their free throws. I could shoot 50% with my left hand. Shaq makes too much money to be such a joke at the most fundamental part of the game.

Shaq is no doubt a great player, but without his size, he'd be nothing.
haz
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#28 Posted on 13.6.02 1900.38
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1904.48
    Originally posted by chuckc14
    You cannot possibly deny the fact that Shaq INITIATES 99% of the contact with his opponents...He should NOT be allowed to dip his shoulder and just bull over opponents like he does. Someone posted the rule for this above and it explains that this is NOT LEGAL. Refs won't call it on him, however, cause if they called it once, they would have to call it EVERY time.




So does every offensive player in the league. When I was learning the game, they taught you how to do that. How to draw a foul, initiate contact.


    Originally posted by chuckc14
    And the free throw shooting thing is absolutely laughable. He should spend less time making rap albums and shitty movies and start working at his foul shots. (yes I know he's made a DRAMATIC improvement in the playoffs, but just wait til the beginning of next year...back to 50%) Anybody that's ever played organized basketball in their lives should at the least be able to hit 65% of their free throws. I could shoot 50% with my left hand. Shaq makes too much money to be such a joke at the most fundamental part of the game.



Yeah, thats one I will give you. He would average 40 points a game all the time if he could shoot better from the line.


    Originally posted by chuckc14
    Shaq is no doubt a great player, but without his size, he'd be nothing.


I don't buy that. If he hadn't had his size, he would've learned a different game. Like the arguments above, if Iverson wasn't small, the way he plays would be no good...

(edited by haz on 13.6.02 2003)
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#29 Posted on 13.6.02 1940.22
Reposted on: 13.6.09 1944.18

    Originally posted by chuckc14

    And the free throw shooting thing is absolutely laughable. He should spend less time making rap albums and shitty movies and start working at his foul shots. (yes I know he's made a DRAMATIC improvement in the playoffs, but just wait til the beginning of next year...back to 50%). Shaq makes too much money to be such a joke at the most fundamental part of the game



You know what's great? That you even admit that Shaq made a "DRAMATIC" improvement in the playoffs. Why should he shoot over 50% in the regular season? Have the Lakers gotten into the playoffs the past three years EVEN WITH Shaq shooting under 50%? YES. So why bother to take the time to work on something when it doesn't mean much of anything? The only time Shaq's free throws become even relevent is during the playoffs.

Hey, and way to go using the statement that "Shaq should spend less time making shitty movies and rap albums and start working on his foul shots." Real original. So by your logic, Jordan should have spent less time making shitty movies, playing golf, and gambling and more time practicing three pointers. Since Jordan was/is CLEARLY the most talented player ever to play the game, why SHOULDN'T he shoot over 50% from beyond the arc?

Do you know why? BECAUSE HIS TEAMS STILL WON WITH HIM SHOOTING LESS THAN 50%. It doesn't matter how shitty his free throw shooting is. All that matters is the "W".
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#30 Posted on 13.6.02 2001.25
Reposted on: 13.6.09 2006.03

    Now you're going to use the argument that Jordan is not great either. Now I understand. You know nothing about Basketball....




Don't put words in my mouth, k? I didn't say Jordan wasn't great, I just didn't like the way he got calls more often than he should. Are you going to tell me that only me and my friends talked about Jordan Rules - that this was something that only we noticed?

Let's stick with Shaq - the topic at hand.

I don't like watching a 300+ lb guy lower his shoulder and blow through a 240 lb guy. What is the smaller guy supposed to do, stand perfectly still and have his head taken off just because he is in the legal position? Protecting yourself by - you know, backing away from the charging mass of flesh - that's a defensive foul.

I guess if you are a Lakers fan you love seeing Shaq run down guys. It's probably a great play at your house where you and all of your friends sit around and yell "OHHHHHHHH SHIT" when it happens. But at my house it is more like "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT" and it's all a matter of who you want to win.

Give me a break though - I know nothing about basketball because I disagree with you, and don't want to watch that style of play? That's a weak argument.

Your best argument is that Shaq is not unique in committing these violations. This, however, doesn't make it right - it just means it's not called. That doesn't invalidate the fact that I am annoyed by the foul. It bugs me when I see it, and through the lame NBC coverage I guess I've seen more Lakers games than other people. You didn't prove anything about Shaq playing by the rules by saying that other people violate them.

So. My arguments are : It is frustrating watching Shaq use his size in a manner which is illegal, but causes defensive fouls when people try to protect themselves. I also don't like it when the NBA refs don't call fouls or violations that are on the book, and I think Shaq gets more calls than most people. At worst I'm guilty of a biased opinion, not an ignorance of basketball.
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#31 Posted on 13.6.02 2039.27
Reposted on: 13.6.09 2042.18

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    So. My arguments are : It is frustrating watching Shaq use his size in a manner which is illegal, but causes defensive fouls when people try to protect themselves. I also don't like it when the NBA refs don't call fouls or violations that are on the book, and I think Shaq gets more calls than most people. At worst I'm guilty of a biased opinion, not an ignorance of basketball.


As I posted earlier: Shaq is the perfect machine for a ridiculous game.

I do not think that is his fault, though. It would be interesting to see what kind of shape/player he would be if the referees would call the fouls by the book. My guess is that he still wouldn't shoot free throws well, and he wouldn't be as dominant, but he very probably would still be the best center in the game today.

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#32 Posted on 13.6.02 2109.26
Reposted on: 13.6.09 2116.11
I'm just glad it's all over and we can focus on baseball season.

Who needs NBA basketball anyway. Eddie's right. It's ridiculous.
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#33 Posted on 14.6.02 0228.32
Reposted on: 14.6.09 0228.34
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan

      Originally posted by Leroy
      And I am sorry, but you do not change the rules for just one man because you don't like the way he plays.


    Actually, this has happened all the time in sports history. The 3 second violation was put into effect because bnig centers used to just camp out in the paint and stop any driving. The 24 second shot clock was to stop players from freezing the ball when they got a lead. In baseball, the pitcher's mound is at it current height and distance to combat eras where pitching has absolutely dominated hitting. Changing the rules to make the game fair, or at least more competitive, is nothing new.



None of those rules were instituted because of one individual.

And perhaps baseball should NOT have moved the pitchers mound, given the fact that we have had an absurd amount of 60+ home run seasons in the last 8 years.







(edited by Leroy on 14.6.02 0029)
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#34 Posted on 14.6.02 0847.25
Reposted on: 14.6.09 0859.02
The league did change rules specifically because of Wilt Chamberlain. They put in the offensive goaltending rule, they changed rules on inbounding and the free throw line and they widened the lanes to make scoring harder for him.
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#35 Posted on 14.6.02 0903.25
Reposted on: 14.6.09 0910.50
KidBrooklyn said...

"So why bother to take the time to work on something when it doesn't mean much of anything? The only time Shaq's free throws become even relevent is during the playoffs."

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read...Shaq's free throw shooting has and will cost the Lakers many games over his career. Shaq's free-throw shooting could make the difference between a great team and a legendary dynasty...
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#36 Posted on 14.6.02 0931.52
Reposted on: 14.6.09 0948.23
After all of these posts, I think one thing is proven...

We all seem to agree that it is the league itself that causes the argument. By calling the "rules" the way they do, they lose fans like Guru, because he doesn't want to watch Shaq knocking people down.

Does Shaq get more calls? Probably, but that is the way of pro sports. Protecting the stars has become the norm, they always get preferential treatment. How many times have you watched or listened to a game and heard the announcer say "after he's been in the league for a while, he'll start to get that call..." Not just in the NBA, but also in other sports.

Football... Michael Irvin and the push-off comes to mind.
Baseball... Greg Maddux and his placing balls on the corners

That doesn't mean I like it, but thats just the way it is.

And by the way, I am not a Lakers fan, just a fan of basketball. I do like the inside game, the guys hitting the floor, popping each other with an elbow once in a while, fighting for their space for a rebound, etc... Could have to do with the fact that I was in that position when I played, but I digress...

I am a Shaq fan, though, as I just find it hard to believe that a 7 foot, 335 pound guy can move like him and do the things he does. He amazes me!!! It's one thing for someone like Nowitski to do it, I mean he's 7 foot too, but only 245.

As for NBC showing Laker games... They just do what is good for their business, and they assume that the large LA market will watch the Lakers, whereas they wouldn't watch the Memphis Grizzlies. Can't fault them for that.

None of this, however, furthers the argument that Shaq has no talent. That was part of the initial article mentioned.

After re-reading the article, though, the writer goes on to blame the NBA as well.... That seems to be a consensus opionion!!!
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#37 Posted on 14.6.02 0932.00
Reposted on: 14.6.09 0948.24
I think I would wait until the free throw shooting actually DOES start costing the Lakers championships before I start criticizing him for it. And also, I can't ignore the fact that it looks like he has fixed the problem. He shot his free throws well in the last two rounds. And the last round, he almost seemed comfortable doing it.

(edited by ges7184 on 14.6.02 0933)
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#38 Posted on 14.6.02 1016.55
Reposted on: 14.6.09 1017.37
0h and another thing...

KidBrooklyn said...

"So by your logic, Jordan should have spent less time making shitty movies, playing golf, and gambling and more time practicing three pointers. Since Jordan was/is CLEARLY the most talented player ever to play the game, why SHOULDN'T he shoot over 50% from beyond the arc?"

hmmm...maybe it's because Jordan isn't REQUIRED to shoot any threes at all if he doesn't feel like it. He can shoot 15 foot jumpers and layups all night if he wants too. On the other hand, Shaq KNOWS he's going to the line at least 10 times a night. This is a HUGE part of Shaq's game that he's been consistently shitty at his whole career. Threes are not a huge part of Jordan's game...and if he'd never hit one in his whole career, he'd still be the best ever.
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#39 Posted on 14.6.02 1949.48
Reposted on: 14.6.09 1959.01
I hate Shaq and not just for basketball. Those stupid fucking commercials. Oh look Shaq can dunk over a couple of 6' teenagers. At least Jordan had some humor in his commercials and didn't try to make himself look fucking invincable.
Has Shaq ever said anything positive about anyone? No he always if running his big fat ugly mouth. Any time the Lakers lose it's the ref. Any time another teams bitches about the ref they are just whiny pussies.
And then there is his god awful music. What was that song? I am the greatest in the whole universe? And Shaq-fu it was impossible to beat him. Kazaam and Steel were sure great movies too. And Blue Chippers he couldn't ever take a bribe in a movie about college kids taking bribes. Why was he in it then? To watch Shaq dunk over actors.
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#40 Posted on 14.6.02 2245.56
Reposted on: 14.6.09 2251.10
Wow... someone's bitter that they're not 1) a 7' 350 lb. black man, 2) a millionaire, and 3) famous. But seriously, if all Shaq wanted to do was dunk over actors, I think he wouldn't have gone through with the whole basketball thing. Plenty of actors are in movies where they play basketball, so why couldn't Shaq be one of those if that's all he wanted to do? Hell, he could have played Tupac's part in Above The Rim.

Chuck: If shooting free throws is such a "HUGE" part of Shaq's game, and he sucks so badly at it, then why the hell do the Lakers keep winning? Again, I'm not a Laker fan by any stretch of the imagination. I just appreciate watching a VERY talented big man do what he does best. Think of it this way; if Shaq didn't play aggressively on offense, he'd be at worst a very fat Shawn Bradly, or at best a talented Orlando Miller.

As far as your statement that Jordan would still be the best ever, even if he didn't hit one three pointer in his career, you're living in a fantasy world. He was an even bigger offensive threat when he learned to shoot the three well.
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