StaggerLee
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 3700/7105 EXP: 53049803 For next: 1063430
Since: 3.10.02 From: Right side of the tracks
Since last post: 937 days Last activity: 937 days
| #1 Posted on 26.11.07 1550.12 Reposted on: 26.11.14 1550.18 | Players on this year's ballot for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Election results will be announced Jan. 8, 2008:
Brady Anderson Harold Baines Rod Beck Bert Blyleven Dave Concepcion Andre Dawson Shawon Dunston Chuck Finley Travis Fryman Rich "Goose" Gossage Tommy John David Justice Chuck Knoblauch Don Mattingly Mark McGwire Jack Morris Dale Murphy Robb Nen Dave Parker Tim Raines Jim Rice Jose Rijo Lee Smith Todd Stottlemyre Alan Trammell
Who gets in? Promote this thread! | | Big Bad
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 4519/7062 EXP: 53474432 For next: 638801
Since: 4.1.02 From: Dorchester, Ontario
Since last post: 1927 days Last activity: 1495 days
| #2 Posted on 26.11.07 1802.03 Reposted on: 26.11.14 1803.57 | I'd vote McGwire, and that's it. | Mr. Boffo
Scrapple Level: 124
Posts: 2201/3844 EXP: 21369048 For next: 467614
Since: 24.3.02 From: Oshkosh, WI
Since last post: 3895 days Last activity: 3856 days
| #3 Posted on 26.11.07 1826.03 Reposted on: 26.11.14 1826.10 | Going back 15 years, 21 players have been elected. 14 got in in their first year. Only two, Sutter and Pιrez, got in after their 6th year of eligibility.
Goose Gossage has seen his % steadily increase like Gary Carter did. Jim Rice has been hovering around 60% for a while, but this is his 14th year. Still, it worked for Bruce Sutter. Andre Dawson is close. It might not be this year, but eventually maybe he can cross 75% like Tony Pιrez did.
Of the first year eligible players, none are first ballot hall of famers. HOF Monitor Test: Brady Anderson-38 Rod Beck-63 Shawon Dunston-14 Chuck Finley-53.5 Travis Fryman-36 David Justice-43.5 Chuck Knoblauch-66.5 Robb Nen-92 Tim Raines-90 Todd Stottlemyre-15 A score above 100 means they have a good chance of getting in. The median first ballot HOF'er in the last 15 years has a HOF Monitor score of 190. So I'll say Gossage gets in, and Rice has a good shot. | It's False
Scrapple Level: 151
Posts: 2380/6155 EXP: 43059162 For next: 237414
Since: 20.6.02 From: I am the Tag Team Champions!
Since last post: 2199 days Last activity: 581 days
| #4 Posted on 26.11.07 1830.57 Reposted on: 26.11.14 1831.06 | Is it me or have the standards of the HOF gone WAAAAAY down this year? I loved Chuck Finley back in the day, but he's not HOF material. Brady Anderson had one good year, but is definitely not what I think of when I think of the HOF. And Travis Fryman? Todd Stottlemyre? Really? THESE are potential Hall of Famers? This is supposed to be the best of the best, not a bunch of guys who had decent careers.
And Chuck Knoblauch? Seriously? The same Chuck Knoblauch that once took a routine ground ball and chucked it into the seats straight at Keith Olbermann's mother? Someone at the Hall must have some sense of humor.
EDIT: Can't believe I found that link on the ESPN archives!
(edited by It's False on 26.11.07 1638) | JayJayDean
Scrapple Level: 136
Posts: 3247/4750 EXP: 29501211 For next: 595781
Since: 2.1.02 From: Seattle, WA
Since last post: 2984 days Last activity: 2562 days
| | Y!: | |
|
| #5 Posted on 26.11.07 1833.08 Reposted on: 26.11.14 1833.09 | Originally posted by It's False Is it me or have the standards of the HOF gone WAAAAAY down this year?
In terms of player quality, the ballot always looks like this. That's what makes it so much fun. | cfgb
Bierwurst Level: 92
Posts: 1379/1930 EXP: 7640742 For next: 116225
Since: 2.1.02 From: Ottawa, Ontario
Since last post: 571 days Last activity: 31 days
| #6 Posted on 26.11.07 2104.45 Reposted on: 26.11.14 2104.47 | One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player. | redsoxnation
Scrapple Level: 165
Posts: 5749/7534 EXP: 58188837 For next: 746968
Since: 24.7.02
Since last post: 3923 days Last activity: 3923 days
| #7 Posted on 26.11.07 2242.44 Reposted on: 26.11.14 2242.53 | Originally posted by It's False Is it me or have the standards of the HOF gone WAAAAAY down this year? I loved Chuck Finley back in the day, but he's not HOF material. Brady Anderson had one good year, but is definitely not what I think of when I think of the HOF. And Travis Fryman? Todd Stottlemyre? Really? THESE are potential Hall of Famers? This is supposed to be the best of the best, not a bunch of guys who had decent careers.
And Chuck Knoblauch? Seriously? The same Chuck Knoblauch that once took a routine ground ball and chucked it into the seats straight at Keith Olbermann's mother? Someone at the Hall must have some sense of humor.
EDIT: Can't believe I found that link on the ESPN archives!
(edited by It's False on 26.11.07 1638)
Ten years in the majors gets you both a full pension and on the Hall of Fame ballot. I think it is an empty class this year. I know he pitched forever, but Tommy John was a left-hander who won 288 games. Throw in post-season and he has 295 wins. And, with a .555 winning percentage over his 26 years he is superior to Nolan Ryan's .526 winning percentage over 27 years. Plus, he had the surgery named after him. Except for the magic number, would the Hall of Fame any different if Tommy John and Bert Blyleven were in and Phil Niekro and Don Sutton were out? | Eddie Famous
Andouille Level: 98
Posts: 1698/2221 EXP: 9444844 For next: 209543
Since: 11.12.01 From: Catlin IL
Since last post: 2620 days Last activity: 2161 days
| #8 Posted on 26.11.07 2326.35 Reposted on: 26.11.14 2327.34 | Originally posted by cfgb One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player.
Sorry, I don't see it at all. Raines compares only slightly favorably to Lou Brock, the least deserving HoFer. Henderson was a better power hitter by far in his halcyon years, Raines was a failed second baseman who was okay but not great in the outfield. Sorry, but no dice. | Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong Level: 88
Posts: 550/1782 EXP: 6607842 For next: 42848
Since: 11.2.03 From: Hackettstown, NJ
Since last post: 61 days Last activity: 30 days
| #9 Posted on 26.11.07 2357.33 Reposted on: 26.11.14 2359.01 | I'd be very happy to see Gossage and/or Rice get in. I don't think I could support McGwire, even though by the numbers he obviously qualifies. | cfgb
Bierwurst Level: 92
Posts: 1380/1930 EXP: 7640742 For next: 116225
Since: 2.1.02 From: Ottawa, Ontario
Since last post: 571 days Last activity: 31 days
| #10 Posted on 27.11.07 0854.06 Reposted on: 27.11.14 0854.16 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous
Originally posted by cfgb One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player.
Sorry, I don't see it at all. Raines compares only slightly favorably to Lou Brock, the least deserving HoFer. Henderson was a better power hitter by far in his halcyon years, Raines was a failed second baseman who was okay but not great in the outfield. Sorry, but no dice.
Tim Raines is very overlooked in a lot of areas because of the era he played in. In today's Moneyball era, he'd be a top choice of any executive starting a team.
Start with OBP. His career number was .385, way higher than your average leadoff hitter from the same era. He was patient, NEVER afraid to take a walk.
OPS+ ... If you define 125 as having a very good year, Timmy had 8 of them. 10 of them if you bend it back just a tad to 124. If 150 is a great year, he had 1, with another just 1 point away. You might be surprised as some of the hall of fame names who NEVER had numbers comparable to those.
Cal Ripken had 5 very good seasons, and 1 great season. Ryne Sandberg had 6 very good seasons, and no great seasons.
He was the biggest victim of collusion. A year after he lead the league in batting, he missed the first month of 1987 WITHOUT A CONTRACT IN HIS PRIME! One of the best players in baseball couldn't get a deal because of the greedy owners. Once he rejoined the Expos, despite missing that time, he just went out and lead the league in runs scored.
In 12 straight years, he never had fewer than 33 stolen bases.
His career stolen base percentage was 84.6%, one of the top numbers of all time.
In his prime, a lineup full of Tim Raines' would score over 7 runs a game, topping out in 1987 at 9.5.
Tack on 2605 hits, 1571 runs, and 808 stolen bases with a .294 batting average, I'd say his numbers certainly merit argument! | StaggerLee
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 3702/7105 EXP: 53049803 For next: 1063430
Since: 3.10.02 From: Right side of the tracks
Since last post: 937 days Last activity: 937 days
| #11 Posted on 27.11.07 1234.11 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1234.16 | Let's also not forget that with the exception of Gary Carter, he was probably the ONLY superstar of the 80s Expos. He carried them a great deal on his back, and did the best with limited support around him. | spf
Scrapple Level: 144
Posts: 4113/5410 EXP: 35857694 For next: 852700
Since: 2.1.02 From: The Las Vegas of Canada
Since last post: 3069 days Last activity: 404 days
| #12 Posted on 27.11.07 1239.42 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1240.07 | Originally posted by StaggerLee Let's also not forget that with the exception of Gary Carter, he was probably the ONLY superstar of the 80s Expos. He carried them a great deal on his back, and did the best with limited support around him.
You just made Andre Dawson cry. | StaggerLee
Scrapple Level: 161
Posts: 3704/7105 EXP: 53049803 For next: 1063430
Since: 3.10.02 From: Right side of the tracks
Since last post: 937 days Last activity: 937 days
| #13 Posted on 27.11.07 1338.40 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1338.46 | I always think of Dawson as a Cub. He was great in Montreal as well. My Apologies to the Hawk! | Joseph Ryder
Head cheese Level: 43
Posts: 238/332 EXP: 542573 For next: 22478
Since: 19.3.02 From: Seattle, WA
Since last post: 4642 days Last activity: 4175 days
| #14 Posted on 27.11.07 1401.37 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1401.54 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous
Originally posted by cfgb One that will sadly get ignored but is VERY deserving is Tim Raines. The NL version of Rickey Henderson with a better SB%, and more than enough numbers coming out of the 1980's to deserve it. Sadly the 90's have watered everything down. VERY underrated player.
Sorry, I don't see it at all. Raines compares only slightly favorably to Lou Brock, the least deserving HoFer. Henderson was a better power hitter by far in his halcyon years, Raines was a failed second baseman who was okay but not great in the outfield. Sorry, but no dice.
Not sure what numbers you're using, but with the ones I'm using, Raines also compares with Tony Gwynn, definitely NOT one of least-deserving HOF members. Gwynn's .385 OBP barely beats our Raines' .383. Gwynn's slugging is about 30 points higher, but Raines stole nearly 500 more bases (with about 13% better success than Gwynn or Brock; he was only caught stealing 21 more times than Gwynn, 161 fewer times than Brock) and grounded into less DPs.
Hits + BB + HBP Raines: 3977 Gwynn: 3955
Runs + RBIs Raines: 2551 Gwynn: 2521
Raines also had one of the requisite "dominant" stretches (the 80s).
Raines is in.
(Though I will grant that Raines probably snorted many more grams of cocaine than Gwynn.) | Eddie Famous
Andouille Level: 98
Posts: 1700/2221 EXP: 9444844 For next: 209543
Since: 11.12.01 From: Catlin IL
Since last post: 2620 days Last activity: 2161 days
| #15 Posted on 27.11.07 1425.40 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1425.45 | According to baseball-reference, the players most like Raines:
1. Kenny Lofton (861) 2. Lou Brock (861) * 3. Max Carey (855) * 4. Willie Davis (846) 5. Jimmy Ryan (826) 6. Jose Cruz (821) 7. Julio Franco (821) 8. Fred Clarke (816) * 9. Harry Hooper (814) * 10. Enos Slaughter (814) *
Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly. Gwynn was also an all-star many more times than Raines and won several Gold Gloves.
In a 23 season career, Raines was an all-star 6 times. | spf
Scrapple Level: 144
Posts: 4114/5410 EXP: 35857694 For next: 852700
Since: 2.1.02 From: The Las Vegas of Canada
Since last post: 3069 days Last activity: 404 days
| #16 Posted on 27.11.07 1445.25 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1445.35 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous According to baseball-reference, the players most like Raines:
1. Kenny Lofton (861) 2. Lou Brock (861) * 3. Max Carey (855) * 4. Willie Davis (846) 5. Jimmy Ryan (826) 6. Jose Cruz (821) 7. Julio Franco (821) 8. Fred Clarke (816) * 9. Harry Hooper (814) * 10. Enos Slaughter (814) *
Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly. Gwynn was also an all-star many more times than Raines and won several Gold Gloves.
In a 23 season career, Raines was an all-star 6 times.
The problem is none of those players are really like Raines. Scores of 900 or greater are generally the benchmark for strong similarity according to Bill James, the guy who came up with that score.
As for all-star games, first off Raines was a 7-time allstar making it every year from 1981 to 1987. He actually was an all-star game starter more times than Gwynn by a total of 5 to 3.
That said, I am not sure he quite makes it. In some ways he reminds me of Harold Baines, another guy on this ballot. He was a very good player. But he strikes me as just one notch below the level of HOF. The kind of guy who, if elected, it certainly wouldn't be near the top of the list of bad choices, but not a guy I personally would check the box for. He doesn't make the top 100 on any of the big 4 scores except for HOF standards, a mark that rewards hanging on more than excellence. I think my problem with him is that he pretty much stops appearing in the top 10 of any categories except SB after 1987. If he had put together another year of two where he was in the top 10-15 players in the NL he might have made it over the hump for me, but I just can't see it personally. | JayJayDean
Scrapple Level: 136
Posts: 3248/4750 EXP: 29501211 For next: 595781
Since: 2.1.02 From: Seattle, WA
Since last post: 2984 days Last activity: 2562 days
| | Y!: | |
|
| #17 Posted on 27.11.07 1559.52 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1600.04 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous Gwynn was also an all-star many more times than Raines and won several Gold Gloves.
In a 23 season career, Raines was an all-star 6 times.
Aw, Eddie. All-Stars and Gold Gloves, two of the least relevant benchmarks for measuring a player? I thought you were better than that. | Joseph Ryder
Head cheese Level: 43
Posts: 239/332 EXP: 542573 For next: 22478
Since: 19.3.02 From: Seattle, WA
Since last post: 4642 days Last activity: 4175 days
| #18 Posted on 27.11.07 1629.53 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1629.57 | Originally posted by Eddie Famous Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly.
I disagree, I find OBP to be a Much more illustrative and informative stat, *especially* so for a leadoff hitter. It's like Batting Average...except way better.
Gwynn: .385 Raines: .383
And I don't pay much attention to subjective awards where many of the voters don't have or use reliable stats (Gold Gloves) and/or honors where fans are in control of the voting and can vote an unlimited number of times, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. | Eddie Famous
Andouille Level: 98
Posts: 1702/2221 EXP: 9444844 For next: 209543
Since: 11.12.01 From: Catlin IL
Since last post: 2620 days Last activity: 2161 days
| #19 Posted on 27.11.07 1735.07 Reposted on: 27.11.14 1735.27 | Originally posted by Joseph Ryder
Originally posted by Eddie Famous Comparing a below .300 lifetime hitter to Tony Gwynn is just silly.
I disagree, I find OBP to be a Much more illustrative and informative stat, *especially* so for a leadoff hitter. It's like Batting Average...except way better.
Gwynn: .385 Raines: .383
And I don't pay much attention to subjective awards where many of the voters don't have or use reliable stats (Gold Gloves) and/or honors where fans are in control of the voting and can vote an unlimited number of times, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Gene Tenace's lfetime OBP : .388
OBP is a fine stat, but give me a .330 hitter with a .390 OBP over a .290 hitter with a .390 average.
The one thing he did BEST was steal bases. He hit well and his OBP was very good. But not HoF worthy on the long haul.
(edited by Eddie Famous on 27.11.07 1536) | The Goon
Banger Moderator Level: 103
Posts: 1769/2519 EXP: 11393041 For next: 78404
Since: 2.1.02 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Since last post: 862 days Last activity: 840 days
| #20 Posted on 28.11.07 0914.57 Reposted on: 28.11.14 0914.57 | Todd Stottlemyre should get some consideration just for telling the mayor of Philadelphia to kiss his ass. |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |