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Mr. Boffo
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#41 Posted on 26.10.06 1849.23
Reposted on: 26.10.13 1850.54
    Originally posted by JoshMann

      ""Just look around," Rogers said back then. "You've got guys in their late 30s, almost 40, who are throwing the ball 96 to 99 and they never threw that hard before in their lives. I'm sorry. That's not natural evolution."

      The words have a different tone to them now, don't they?


    Not really...that's from 2002, where the full context of the quote is talking about juiced pitchers, not scuffing the ball.


That's exactly what Bill Simmons is implying.

    Originally posted by Bill Simmons

    Back to Rogers: Does anyone else believe that he planted that brown stuff on his left hand to deflect attention away from the fact that he fits every possible profile of a steroids/greenies guy? I mean, let's say you just returned from a three-week safari in Africa and I told you, "Yo, there's this veteran pitcher in his early 40s with a storied track record for choking in big games, only now he's working on a 22-inning scoreless streak in October and punctuating each start by screaming after every out and stomping around like a crazy homeless guy trying to clear out a bus stop?" Wouldn't your first thought be, "What's he taking?" Instead, we're worried about some mud on his hand? Somebody make this guy pee in a cup, please.
Eddie Famous
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#42 Posted on 26.10.06 2307.56
Reposted on: 26.10.13 2308.56
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Holy lord, MLB needs to start a fund to get retractable roofs on every stadium north of the Mason-Dixon line. This is getting ridiculous.



Shaddup you CANADIAN!

Seriously, the Tigers are needing an infusion of vets right now. They are looking more and more like a team that has no idea where they are.
spf
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#43 Posted on 27.10.06 0000.12
Reposted on: 27.10.13 0000.19
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by Big Bad
      Holy lord, MLB needs to start a fund to get retractable roofs on every stadium north of the Mason-Dixon line. This is getting ridiculous.



    Shaddup you CANADIAN!

    Seriously, the Tigers are needing an infusion of vets right now. They are looking more and more like a team that has no idea where they are.

It's not like they don't have some experienced guys there. Rodriguez, Rogers, Jones, Polanco, and a few others have been around a while. If anything here is where Leyland should be earning his cash. Life is easy when your pitching staff kills everyone all year, just ask Ozzie Guillen about that. But now is when managers should be making the difference, and Leyland should be getting their heads on right.

That said, go Cards.
Quezzy
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#44 Posted on 27.10.06 0045.05
Reposted on: 27.10.13 0045.33
Oh geez this Rogers stuff is ridiculous. If I really looked hard enough I'm sure I could find plenty of examples where people played bad in the playoffs for along time and then suddenly played great one series. Some people just can't handle the pressure at first, some people get more experienced or more mature, some people just want it more at the end of their career. I'm not saying he didn't doctor the ball but to suddenly say he's now using steroids is a joke. All these steroid conspiracy theorists seem to think everyone uses steroids and if everyone uses steroids then who cares! They're all on a level playing field! So either way shut up.

Is it time to call the Cardinals a "team of destiny" yet. That's what we always call a team that wins who we didn't expect. Because only destiny could possibly make our predictions wrong. :)
TheBucsFan
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#45 Posted on 27.10.06 0056.41
Reposted on: 27.10.13 0056.55
    Originally posted by Quezzy
    Oh geez this Rogers stuff is ridiculous. If I really looked hard enough I'm sure I could find plenty of examples where people played bad in the playoffs for along time and then suddenly played great one series. Some people just can't handle the pressure at first, some people get more experienced or more mature, some people just want it more at the end of their career. I'm not saying he didn't doctor the ball but to suddenly say he's now using steroids is a joke. All these steroid conspiracy theorists seem to think everyone uses steroids and if everyone uses steroids then who cares! They're all on a level playing field! So either way shut up.

    Is it time to call the Cardinals a "team of destiny" yet. That's what we always call a team that wins who we didn't expect. Because only destiny could possibly make our predictions wrong. :)


The point isn't "Rogers must be using steroids." The point is, "according to the logic applied by Rogers four years ago, Rogers must be using steroids." So either he must be using steroids, or in 2002 he was an ignorant, finger-pointing idiot. Either way, he's going back to Detroit still a loser.
It's False
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#46 Posted on 27.10.06 2230.36
Reposted on: 27.10.13 2232.59
Wow...less than a month ago, the Cards were on the verge of the biggest late season collapse in history and missing the playoffs entirely. Tonight, they're world champions. Congratulations to the Cardinals.

P.S. Be sure to send extra Christmas cards to the Braves, because if they didn't polish off the Astros, this would be a very different postseason.
Eddie Famous
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#47 Posted on 27.10.06 2232.58
Reposted on: 27.10.13 2233.37
Bleh on the Braves.

The Tigers collapsed under the stress of the Series. You could see it start to manifest in game 2. The Tigers might be back again, the Cards prolly wont next season in this configuration.

Jeff Weaver was magnificant. Take that little bro! Take my job? Kiss my ring!
StingArmy
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#48 Posted on 27.10.06 2233.39
Reposted on: 27.10.13 2234.49
    Originally posted by It's False
    P.S. Be sure to send extra Christmas cards to the Braves, because if they didn't polish off the Astros, this would be a very different postseason.

Being a huge, ginormous Braves fan and a similarly sized Cardinals hater, it pains me to read that.

On to basketball season! (Go Hawks?)

- StingArmy
TheBucsFan
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#49 Posted on 27.10.06 2329.16
Reposted on: 27.10.13 2329.32
    Originally posted by JoshMann
    It might have taken too much out the Cards' staff to get to the WS to where they may not have anything left for now. Whereas Leyland can curtail his rotation any way he wants to.

    Tigers in 5.


Oops. Carpenter, Weaver, Reyes ... best staff in baseball? Sure looked like it in October; it's also the only staff with a 2006 World Series ring.

    Originally posted by whatever
    They have rest, the rotation can be set, and for whatever it is that he has done, they have Leyland. He is not going to let them lose.

    Tigers in 5.


Oops. Tony LaRussa is the best manager of this generation. Period. Third all-time in wins, and to take this club to a title is up there with the greatest managerial accomplishments ever. From Duncan's blast in the NLCS, to the safety squeeze by Belliard against the Mets, to starting Reyes in Game 1 and Weaver in Game 5, LaRussa could do no wrong. Meanwhile, Leyland's club played like a bunch of rookies.

    Originally posted by Quezzy
    Well let's see here. Detroit's offense? 8th in the Majors. St. Louis's offense? 14th in the Majors. And that's mostly because of Pujols who hasn't done much damage so far. The Tigers have played two pitching staffs that were better than the Cardinals this year and scored more runs on them than the Cardinals have scored even though the Cardinals have played more games. The Tigers offense is much better and the Tigers pitching staff is much better that's why the Tigers can hit off the Cardinals better than the Cardinals can hit off the Tigers.


Oops. Mr. World Series MVP David Eckstein coming up with one huge hit after another, Scott Rolen getting hot and Albert Pujols only getting two hits is just about the last possible combination that most people thought would land the Cardinals a title. But Edmonds, Rolen, Eckstein and even Preston Wilson and Juan Encarnacion have been around. They know how to play in pressure situations. And the Cardinals' pitching has been great for the past month.

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Cards in six.

    Weaver and Suppan are on a roll.


Oops. Even *I* underestimated the Cardinals!
wmatistic
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#50 Posted on 27.10.06 2333.05
Reposted on: 27.10.13 2333.05
Seeing as how even before this last game, many people were just dead set on not giving the Cards any credit I half expected to find a post saying, "yeah Cards won, but I still think Detroit will take it in nine".

Granted the Cards didn't give people a reason to buy into them during the regular season, but after the first two rounds and then the first few games of this series it was clear Detroit was not ready for this moment and the Cards were.

Now for the annoying part of all this. The Cards finally win a Series and I'm not there. We are moving to Austin this weekend. Movers took my TV's Thursday so I had to sit on my floor listening to the radio for game four. Tonight I drove part way to Kansas and listened on XM. Now I sit alone on my PC wishing I was in St. Louis to celebrate, and trust in this, it's shocking to even me that I would have any wish to be back in that town.

Go Cards. Party hard, you earned it.
Stefonics
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#51 Posted on 28.10.06 0920.30
Reposted on: 28.10.13 0920.51
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Oops. Tony LaRussa is the best manager of this generation. Period.


What? You're serious right now? The BEST manager of this generation? Period? No debating it? The man has two World Series rings as a manager. Two. In 28 seasons. By what standards is he the best manager of this generation? If you're going strictly by total wins, it's still an overstatement to say the least.
TheBucsFan
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#52 Posted on 28.10.06 1120.33
Reposted on: 28.10.13 1120.37
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Oops. Tony LaRussa is the best manager of this generation. Period.


    What? You're serious right now? The BEST manager of this generation? Period? No debating it? The man has two World Series rings as a manager. Two. In 28 seasons. By what standards is he the best manager of this generation? If you're going strictly by total wins, it's still an overstatement to say the least.


OK who is better? Torre, who year after year is handed the most talent to work with? Dusty Baker? Jack McKeon? Depending on what you want to call a generation, maybe Whitey Herzog? Come on, give me a name.

LaRussa is thrid all-time in wins. He has won two World Series, this one where his team was a heavy underdog in three straight series. He's won five pennants and is *always* in the playoffs. I don't know what other standards exist for managers.
BOSsportsfan34
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#53 Posted on 28.10.06 1320.56
Reposted on: 28.10.13 1321.00
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
        Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        Oops. Tony LaRussa is the best manager of this generation. Period.


      What? You're serious right now? The BEST manager of this generation? Period? No debating it? The man has two World Series rings as a manager. Two. In 28 seasons. By what standards is he the best manager of this generation? If you're going strictly by total wins, it's still an overstatement to say the least.


    OK who is better? Torre, who year after year is handed the most talent to work with? Dusty Baker? Jack McKeon? Depending on what you want to call a generation, maybe Whitey Herzog? Come on, give me a name.

    LaRussa is thrid all-time in wins. He has won two World Series, this one where his team was a heavy underdog in three straight series. He's won five pennants and is *always* in the playoffs. I don't know what other standards exist for managers.


Does winning a World Series "where his team was a heavy underdog in" make up for the fact he lost 2 World Series(88 vs Dodgers, 90 vs Reds) when his team was talent-wise much better than the ones they lost to?


(edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 28.10.06 1422)
Stefonics
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#54 Posted on 28.10.06 1343.04
Reposted on: 28.10.13 1343.18
With reference to the Torre comment, LaRussa wasn't exactly handed scraps for talent during his two title runs either. In 89 he had McGwire, Steinbach, Lansford, Ricky Henderson, Dave Henderson, and a still dangerous Cobra Dave Parker on offense. Pitching had Mike Moore, Dave Stewart, Bob Welch, Storm Davis, and arguably the best closer ever in Eckersley. With the core of that team around for several years, especially adding in the roided Canseco, they should have walked out of the late 80's/early 90's with more than one title. That team looked downright unbeatable in 88, even without Rickey, but somehow Lasorda's Dodgers took them down.

This year, having Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds anchor the lineup doesn't exactly prove they have a lack of talent on that team. Pujols is the most frightening hitter in all of baseball, and not just because of the herpes on his lip. Rolen and Edmonds get it done on both sides. With a very serviceable lineup around the big three, it wasn't a surprise that they made the playoffs, and have consistently with that core group. The pitching staff leaves something to be desired, but you did have the reigning Cy Young winner.

I would say the 2006 Cards look like the 1988 Dodgers. Grueling 7 game series against the heavily favored Mets, take the title 4-1 against a heavily favored American League opponent. But I wouldn't go as far as to call Lasorda the greatest manager of this generation after what he pulled off in 88, and he would deserve the title more than LaRussa. More rings, comparable winning percentage with fewer years managing.

The two managers who are better than LaRussa in this generation, and it really hurts to say this being a Met fan, but I'll say Torre and Leyland. If you're not going to count rings as a stat, I'd put Cox in there as well. Talk about consistency in making the playoffs, he beats any argument for LaRussa every time. But his teams spit the bit in the big games. Torre has the titles and the record to back it up. Coaching the Yankees doesn't hurt, as you've pointed out, but he still has to show up and actually do stuff to earn his paycheck. Leyland has only one title, but a higher winning percentage. He's also managed 13 fewer seasons than his good buddy LaRussa.
It's False
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#55 Posted on 28.10.06 1344.45
Reposted on: 28.10.13 1345.35
Before I forget, let me actually send a huge congratulations on the now 2-TIME, 2-TIME world champion AND World Series MVP David Eckstein. While some of his specialness is taken away by the incessant commentary of Buck and McCarver (hey, did you know he's SHORT and LITTLE?), Eckstein really is one of the hardest playing guys in baseball and a true class act. I was one of the crazy guys who saw any hope of an Angels dynasty disappear when Eckstein left to St. Louis, because the guy was the heart and soul of that 2002 championship team. He brought every bit of his hard work and determination to St. Louis and helped make that team what it is today.

Am absolutely HUGE congratulations to David Eckstein, who deserved this win. Here's hoping you come back to Anaheim for interleague play next year, because you'll be guaranteed a huge pop and a standing O next time you step into the Big A.
BOSsportsfan34
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#56 Posted on 28.10.06 1349.25
Reposted on: 28.10.13 1350.01
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    With reference to the Torre comment, LaRussa wasn't exactly handed scraps for talent during his two title runs either. In 89 he had McGwire, Steinbach, Lansford, Ricky Henderson, Dave Henderson, and a still dangerous Cobra Dave Parker on offense. Pitching had Mike Moore, Dave Stewart, Bob Welch, Storm Davis, and arguably the best closer ever in Eckersley. With the core of that team around for several years, especially adding in the roided Canseco, they should have walked out of the late 80's/early 90's with more than one title. That team looked downright unbeatable in 88, even without Rickey, but somehow Lasorda's Dodgers took them down.

    This year, having Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds anchor the lineup doesn't exactly prove they have a lack of talent on that team. Pujols is the most frightening hitter in all of baseball, and not just because of the herpes on his lip. Rolen and Edmonds get it done on both sides. With a very serviceable lineup around the big three, it wasn't a surprise that they made the playoffs, and have consistently with that core group. The pitching staff leaves something to be desired, but you did have the reigning Cy Young winner.

    I would say the 2006 Cards look like the 1988 Dodgers. Grueling 7 game series against the heavily favored Mets, take the title 4-1 against a heavily favored American League opponent. But I wouldn't go as far as to call Lasorda the greatest manager of this generation after what he pulled off in 88, and he would deserve the title more than LaRussa. More rings, comparable winning percentage with fewer years managing.

    The two managers who are better than LaRussa in this generation, and it really hurts to say this being a Met fan, but I'll say Torre and Leyland. If you're not going to count rings as a stat, I'd put Cox in there as well. Talk about consistency in making the playoffs, he beats any argument for LaRussa every time. But his teams spit the bit in the big games. Torre has the titles and the record to back it up. Coaching the Yankees doesn't hurt, as you've pointed out, but he still has to show up and actually do stuff to earn his paycheck. Leyland has only one title, but a higher winning percentage. He's also managed 13 fewer seasons than his good buddy LaRussa.


A comment about Torre: the 2000 Yanks only won 87 games that year. Hardly having been "handed the most talent to work with".
TheBucsFan
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#57 Posted on 28.10.06 2241.57
Reposted on: 28.10.13 2241.58
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    With reference to the Torre comment, LaRussa wasn't exactly handed scraps for talent during his two title runs either. In 89 he had McGwire, Steinbach, Lansford, Ricky Henderson, Dave Henderson, and a still dangerous Cobra Dave Parker on offense. Pitching had Mike Moore, Dave Stewart, Bob Welch, Storm Davis, and arguably the best closer ever in Eckersley. With the core of that team around for several years, especially adding in the roided Canseco, they should have walked out of the late 80's/early 90's with more than one title. That team looked downright unbeatable in 88, even without Rickey, but somehow Lasorda's Dodgers took them down.

    This year, having Pujols, Rolen, and Edmonds anchor the lineup doesn't exactly prove they have a lack of talent on that team. Pujols is the most frightening hitter in all of baseball, and not just because of the herpes on his lip. Rolen and Edmonds get it done on both sides. With a very serviceable lineup around the big three, it wasn't a surprise that they made the playoffs, and have consistently with that core group. The pitching staff leaves something to be desired, but you did have the reigning Cy Young winner.

    I would say the 2006 Cards look like the 1988 Dodgers. Grueling 7 game series against the heavily favored Mets, take the title 4-1 against a heavily favored American League opponent. But I wouldn't go as far as to call Lasorda the greatest manager of this generation after what he pulled off in 88, and he would deserve the title more than LaRussa. More rings, comparable winning percentage with fewer years managing.

    The two managers who are better than LaRussa in this generation, and it really hurts to say this being a Met fan, but I'll say Torre and Leyland. If you're not going to count rings as a stat, I'd put Cox in there as well. Talk about consistency in making the playoffs, he beats any argument for LaRussa every time. But his teams spit the bit in the big games. Torre has the titles and the record to back it up. Coaching the Yankees doesn't hurt, as you've pointed out, but he still has to show up and actually do stuff to earn his paycheck. Leyland has only one title, but a higher winning percentage. He's also managed 13 fewer seasons than his good buddy LaRussa.


LaRussa completely outmanaged Leyland in every possible way in this series. Torre, I'd say 87 wins in 2000 is more a testament against him than the World Series win is for him; either way, he's damn good and it's tough to differentiate between the two. I still think LaRussa on a yearly basis does more with less, though.
hansen9j
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#58 Posted on 29.10.06 1012.21
Reposted on: 29.10.13 1012.24
What, no respect for Cito Gaston?
Reverend J Shaft
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#59 Posted on 30.10.06 0752.55
Reposted on: 30.10.13 0753.10
Congrats to the Cards and their fans. They took advantage of all the Detroit mistakes and had great pitching throughout the series.

And now I'm thinking that, not only should both leagues use a DH, but they should both have Designated Fielders for the pitchers as well.

And, hell, who can be upset with the Tigers when they lost 119 games 3 years ago. I haven't had to pay attention to the Lions for 8 WEEKS!! Go Tigers!!
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