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TheBucsFan
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#21 Posted on 7.10.06 0946.00
Reposted on: 7.10.13 0947.32
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    That would never, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER...EVER, EVER, happen.

What would never happen, a four-loss team winning the playoff, or the AP not recognizing them as champ? This year, for example, I could definitely see Florida State losing three or four games but still winning the ACC, then getting hot and winning a tournament. So you think the AP would award Florida State its title over the undefeated Ohio State it defeated in the final game (or whoever)? I don't for a second.


    As far as I could tell with a quick Google search, the AP doesn't even do a poll after the basketball tournament, and if they did, so what? They hand out an official NCAA trophy at the end of the tournament. Official. NCAA. Champions. Even if you found me a poll that said Duke or UConn was the national champion of men's basketball last year, would you pay it any attention for even one second? No.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything. In fact, I'm pretty sure I already said this.


    Nobody thought Syracuse was the "best" team the year they won the title. Nobody thought Florida was the "best" team the year they won the title.
    Nobody (except Shapiro) thought the Steelers were the "best" team last year.

    In none of those cases, NONE, does anyone dispute those teams are/were CHAMPIONS. Why? Because they won the playoffs, that's why.

So your argument is that a playoff, which doesn't always crown the best team, is necessary to crown the best team? In basketball, there's no disputing the champ because there's only one. In football, there's two. Like I said.


    No one has tried to say the Colts should be the NFL champs or the Pistons should be the NBA champs, because those teams didn't win in the playoffs. Period. So don't try and tell me that there would be some controversy over who is the champion of you took 16 or 20 or 24 teams, put 'em in a bracket and had them play until there is a winner, because THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

If I gave out a championship trophy and awarded to the Colts, than I could say there's two NFL champs. The thing is, nobody cares who I think is the best team is. This is not true in college football. See, and stop me if you heard this before, in the NFL, there is only one recognized champ. In college football there's two.


    You and Wade try and talk like me and RSN and Zeruel and every other playoff advocate is thinking way outside the box in some crazy world. We just want to see the champion deteremined on the field, like it is at just about every other level in just about every other sport in the world.

Damn dude, calm down! I didn't say anything about you. I don't even know you! It's gonna be alright.


    The model is there, heck, the NCAA uses that model for EVERY OTHER SPORT.

    It's fine if you don't want to change the system, but don't tell me that a playoff system wouldn't be a MASSIVE improvement. The way college football chooses its national champion isn't "good", it's "different". I'll accept that you wouldn't want to change it because it is "different" and that's why you like it, but don't tell me that you don't want them to change it because it's "good".

Well, while I didn't say before that the current system is good, I will say it now. There's no way to determine a champ in college football via a playoff that is both credible and practical. A 16-team playoff is way too narrow and anything more than that is pretty much impossible. The NCAA tournament is fun to watch, but, like you said, I come away most years not feeling like the best team won the title. Most years, I think the best team is the team that wins at least one of college football's two national titles. The way football does things wouldn't work in basketball, though.

I didn't want to get suckered into this argument, because I'm pretty sure this is like the sixth or seventh time this debate has broken out on this board, with the same people on the same sides every time. My thoughts are out there. Also, I think a playoff is going to happen eventually anyway (though it can't for several years) because all the Auburn sheep won't shut up. But it will introduce all kinds of problems that aren't there now.

EDIT: A little clarification. The only thing that I think is really worth trying to avoid is a split national championship, which is always a threat as long as there are two titles awarded, which is why I dwell on that. As you and I apparently agree on, a playoff will not crown "the best team." It will crown "the team to be crowned by the playoff." And that, to me, is just not worth the overhaul you advocate. Especially considering the best team still wins the college football national championship pretty much every year the way it is now.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 7.10.06 1001)
JayJayDean
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#22 Posted on 7.10.06 1418.13
Reposted on: 7.10.13 1420.11
Please stop saying there are two natonal champions. There is no national champion, as far as the NCAA is concerned, which is my there is a crystal football awarded at the end of the year instead of an official NCAA trophy.

Source: http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/ia_football_past_champs.html

Past Division I-A Football National Champions

The NCAA does not conduct a national championship in Division I-A football and is not involved in the selection process. Since 1998, the Bowl Championship Series (BCS) has conducted a contest between it's two top-ranked teams to determine a national champion. More information on the BCS is available at their Web site.

A number of polling organizations also provide a final ranking of Division I-A football teams at the end of each season. Below is a year-by-year history of Division I-A football national champions as determined by the BCS championship game and these polling organizations. More information on national poll rankings is available in the Division I-A section of the NCAA Divison I-A/I-AA Football Records Book.

2005
Texas: BCS

2004
Southern California : AP, BCS, Berryman, Billingsley, Colley, DeVold, Dunkel, Eck, FACT, FB News, FW, Massey, Matthews, NFF, NY Times, Sagarin, Seattle Times, Sporting News, USA/ESPN, Wolfe

2003
LSU: BCS, Billingsley, Colley, DeVold, Dunkel, FACT, Massey, NFF, Sagarin, Seattle Times, USA/ESPN
Oklahoma: Berryman
Southern California: AP, Eck, Matthews, NY Times


Wait a sec, Oklahoma?! They lost to LSU in the Sugar Bowl! They are listed as a national champion on the NCAA's OWN WEBSITE.

1993
Auburn: National Championship Foundation*
Florida St.: AP, Berryman, Billingsley, DeVold, Dunkel, Eck, FACT, FB News, FW, National Championship Foundation*, NY Times, Sagarin, Sporting News, UPI, USA/CNN ,USA/NFF
Nebraska : National Championship Foundation*
Notre Dame: Matthews, National Championship Foundation*


Here's one with FOUR "national champions".

1981
Clemson: AP, Berryman, Billingsley, DeVold, FACT, FB News, Football Research, FW, Helms, Litkenhous, Matthews, National Championship Foundation*, NFF, NY Times, Poling, Sagarin, Sporting News, UPI
Nebraska: National Championship Foundation*
Penn St.: Dunkel
Pittsburgh: National Championship Foundation*
Texas: National Championship Foundation*
Southern Methodist: National Championship Foundation*


And one with SIX.

* Note : Organization chose multiple schools.

Alrighty, then!

If you click here you will see that the Division I-AA (called Division I), II, and III playoffs are referred to as "championships" while the Division I-A set-up is called the "postseason". They refer to the BCS and all that but the BCS doesn't have any more "official-ness" than the AP, coaches, Sagarin or anything else.

So, to sum it all up, what *I* want is not a "postseason", but a "championship", organized and sanctioned by the NCAA, with an NCAA trophy at the end, just like the other divisions have. OK? If a four-loss team gets the last playoff spot and runs the table they get the trophy and the glory and the recognition as the national champions. Period.
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#23 Posted on 7.10.06 1536.23
Reposted on: 7.10.13 1538.48
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Please stop saying there are two natonal champions. There is no national champion, as far as the NCAA is concerned, which is my there is a crystal football awarded at the end of the year instead of an official NCAA trophy.


Oh, please. Nothing you say after this means anything, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really care who sanctions the titles, they exist.

And as a side note, maybe Tuberville's route to a title needs a playoff, since losing to Arkansas doesn't seem to fit into the current formula.
wmatistic
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#24 Posted on 7.10.06 1808.42
Reposted on: 7.10.13 1808.58
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by wmatistic
      I think people don't realize that what they want gone is the crazy controversy over who's number one and don't stop to realize it's the polls that create it. Playoffs don't address the problem.


    *bangs head against desk*

    There is a men's college basketball poll. There is a men's basketball national champion. The two are not related in any way. The poll is not used to seed the teams. The poll is not used to choose which teams play and which teams don't. Teams are placed by a selection committee into a bracket and they play each other in a single elimination format until one team remains, at which point that team is crowned the national champion.

    There is a women's college basketball poll. There is a women's basketball national champion. The two are not related in any way. The poll is not used to seed the teams. The poll is not used to choose which teams play and which teams don't. Teams are placed by a selection committee into a bracket and they play each other in a single elimination format until one team remains, at which point that team is crowned the national champion.

    There is a men's college ice hockey poll. There is a men's ice hockey national champion. The two are not related in any way. The poll is not used to seed the teams. The poll is not used to choose which teams play and which teams don't. Teams are placed by a selection committee into a bracket and they play each other in a single elimination format until one team remains, at which point that team is crowned the national champion.

    There is a women's college soccer poll. There is a women's soccer national champion. The two are not related in any way. The poll is not used to seed the teams. The poll is not used to choose which teams play and which teams don't. Teams are placed by a selection committee into a bracket and they play each other in a single elimination format until one team remains, at which point that team is crowned the national champion.

    There is a DIVISION I-AA FOOTBALL poll. There is a DIVISION I-AA FOOTBALL national champion. The two are not related in any way. The poll is not used to seed the teams. The poll is not used to choose which teams play and which teams don't. Teams are placed by a selection committee into a bracket and they play each other in a single elimination format until one team remains, at which point that team is crowned the national champion.

    (I could go on.)

    I'll tell you what. If you can find me one, ONE, documented occurrence of Duke or UConn or anyone trying to claim that THEY, not Florida, are the TRUE National Champions of men's basketball, I'll admit that you are right and I am wrong. Please. Find it. Show me the stories of lawsuits by teams that were left out of any particular tournament because they thought they deserved to be in it.

    EDIT: In the interest of brevity, you can go through the last time Wade and I argued about this here: http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=27402. He didn't give me any facts or anything based on truth THEN, either.

    (edited by JayJayDean on 6.10.06 1520)


Wow, aren't you being friendly today. You can make all the comparisons(again) to other divisions and college basketball you want, but they still won't be valid. The sports and divisions are so hugely different it's a waste of time. I pointed out why time and time again and if you want to continue to ignore it, whatever.

I gave you the only facts you need to know. We have controversy when one undefeated team gets left out of one national title game. You go to a playoff, you increase the number of teams that would have a legit ability to win the title but never get the shot. You also screw them out of a ton of money and since you're aren't doing it "by the numbers" but rather by poll or selection committe, you are opening the door to HUGE arguements.

AGain I never said there would be a lawsuit. I was merely pointing out that you can expect must more heated arguements over a playoff snub than what we've seen in the past. Bank on it. No one is saying if a team won a playoff they wouldn't be a deserving champ. What's being said is you would create more controversy from the teams you left out, and nothing you have said goes against that.

Bottom line, and you have no idea how much pleasure I take in writing this, you can wish for a playoff in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled first. Get over it, it's not happening.
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#25 Posted on 7.10.06 1916.49
Reposted on: 7.10.13 1917.13
OK, you and Bucs both have said that I've gotten nasty here, so if I have I apologize. Instead of furthering this debate any more, let me just review it (as I see it) and someone else can tell me if I've got a misperception of things.

ME: I love college football but I wish they had a playoff.
YOU: I love it too but I think a playoff would suck.
ME: But you would have a definite national champion with a playoff.
YOU: No you would still have an argument about it sometimes.
ME: No one argues about who the basketball champion is.
YOU: That doesn't matter.
ME: It doesn't?
YOU: Nope. Division I football is different.
ME: How is it different? It's not different.
YOU: Yes it is.
ME: But isn't it dumb that if there are three unbeaten teams one automatically can't even play for the title that way?
YOU: It sucks for that team but that is the way it is.
ME: But if you had a playoff they would have a chance...
YOU: Yeah, but then the #16-20 teams would get screwed.
ME: But they were only ranked there because they lost, and they would'vew had a chance to be better if they would have won more.
YOU: One of them just might sue.
ME: But they figure out which basketball teams to put in that tournament.
YOU: Well that doesn't matter because football is too dfferent.
ME: You think they couldn't figure it out?
YOU: Nope. Too. Different. Plus there would be a big fight about the money.
ME: They don't fight about the money in the basketball tournament.
YOU: Well, that's different.
ME: Huh? You REALLY think that they couldn't figure it out?
YOU: Nope. Football is too different.
ME: But the OTHER divisions somehow have playoffs.
YOU: That doesn't matter.
ME: It doesn't?
YOU: No. It would be a logistical nightmare.
ME: More of a nightmare than getting smaller teams to Mobile and Chattanooga?
YOU: A much bigger nightmare.
ME: It's easier to get from smaller towns to a smaller city than from like LA to St. Louis?
YOU: Football is too different. You could never pick the teams.
ME: But they figure it out in all of the other sports.
YOU: Well you just CAN'T figure it out in football.
ME: So it wouldn't be better to make a bracket and --
YOU: Nope.
ME: -- and have the teams play, on the field, just like they do in basketball.
YOU: No it would RUIN college football.
ME: But they do it in EVERY OTHER SPORT.
YOU: Too hard in football. Besides it's better this way.
ME: Then why doesn't any other sport use a similar format to decide a champion?
YOU: Well, it just wouldn't work. You couldn't pick the teams and you can't trust the polls.
ME: But they don't use the polls to pick the teams in other sports.
YOU: Well there would never be any way to figure it out.
ME: But these are smart people who make a playoff work in other levels of football and in every other sport with money and logistics and which teams do or don't get in...
YOU: They aren't smart enough to make it work for Division I-A football.
ME: It's not rocket science, though.
YOU: It's much more difficult.
ME; Do you even remember who got left out of the last basketball tournament?
YOU: It would be worse in football.
ME: You didn't answer me. That's because you don't remember because no one really cares about it.
YOU: Well, it would be so much worse, you don't even know.
ME: No one says teams that go through playoffs and win are not the champions at the end.
YOU: Well they could. It would be horrible.

I swear that if you guys would've given me something that is a fact I would concede it. I feel like my points are based on fact and yours are based ENTIRELY on feelings and opinions that aren't really based on fact at all.

I'm not saying I think they WILL change it, so I'll not take you up on your offer to "crap in my hand", but that doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T change it, and it doesn't mean they CAN'T change it.
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#26 Posted on 7.10.06 2221.28
Reposted on: 7.10.13 2224.07
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    OK, you and Bucs both have said that I've gotten nasty here, so if I have I apologize. Instead of furthering this debate any more, let me just review it (as I see it) and someone else can tell me if I've got a misperception of things.

    ME: I love college football but I wish they had a playoff.
    YOU: I love it too but I think a playoff would suck.
    ME: But you would have a definite national champion with a playoff.
    YOU: No you would still have an argument about it sometimes.
    ME: No one argues about who the basketball champion is.
    YOU: That doesn't matter.
    ME: It doesn't?
    YOU: Nope. Division I football is different.
    ME: How is it different? It's not different.
    YOU: Yes it is.
    ME: But isn't it dumb that if there are three unbeaten teams one automatically can't even play for the title that way?
    YOU: It sucks for that team but that is the way it is.
    ME: But if you had a playoff they would have a chance...
    YOU: Yeah, but then the #16-20 teams would get screwed.
    ME: But they were only ranked there because they lost, and they would'vew had a chance to be better if they would have won more.
    YOU: One of them just might sue.
    ME: But they figure out which basketball teams to put in that tournament.
    YOU: Well that doesn't matter because football is too dfferent.
    ME: You think they couldn't figure it out?
    YOU: Nope. Too. Different. Plus there would be a big fight about the money.
    ME: They don't fight about the money in the basketball tournament.
    YOU: Well, that's different.
    ME: Huh? You REALLY think that they couldn't figure it out?
    YOU: Nope. Football is too different.
    ME: But the OTHER divisions somehow have playoffs.
    YOU: That doesn't matter.
    ME: It doesn't?
    YOU: No. It would be a logistical nightmare.
    ME: More of a nightmare than getting smaller teams to Mobile and Chattanooga?
    YOU: A much bigger nightmare.
    ME: It's easier to get from smaller towns to a smaller city than from like LA to St. Louis?
    YOU: Football is too different. You could never pick the teams.
    ME: But they figure it out in all of the other sports.
    YOU: Well you just CAN'T figure it out in football.
    ME: So it wouldn't be better to make a bracket and --
    YOU: Nope.
    ME: -- and have the teams play, on the field, just like they do in basketball.
    YOU: No it would RUIN college football.
    ME: But they do it in EVERY OTHER SPORT.
    YOU: Too hard in football. Besides it's better this way.
    ME: Then why doesn't any other sport use a similar format to decide a champion?
    YOU: Well, it just wouldn't work. You couldn't pick the teams and you can't trust the polls.
    ME: But they don't use the polls to pick the teams in other sports.
    YOU: Well there would never be any way to figure it out.
    ME: But these are smart people who make a playoff work in other levels of football and in every other sport with money and logistics and which teams do or don't get in...
    YOU: They aren't smart enough to make it work for Division I-A football.
    ME: It's not rocket science, though.
    YOU: It's much more difficult.
    ME; Do you even remember who got left out of the last basketball tournament?
    YOU: It would be worse in football.
    ME: You didn't answer me. That's because you don't remember because no one really cares about it.
    YOU: Well, it would be so much worse, you don't even know.
    ME: No one says teams that go through playoffs and win are not the champions at the end.
    YOU: Well they could. It would be horrible.

    I swear that if you guys would've given me something that is a fact I would concede it. I feel like my points are based on fact and yours are based ENTIRELY on feelings and opinions that aren't really based on fact at all.

    I'm not saying I think they WILL change it, so I'll not take you up on your offer to "crap in my hand", but that doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T change it, and it doesn't mean they CAN'T change it.


Honestly this explains a lot, because a lot of the "points" you attribute to me I never made there and you leave out the actual reasons I gave as though I never gave any. It's like you just weren't paying attention or didn't care.

I never just said football is different. I gave details as to why DI football is different and you continually ignore them as though they aren't facts. I don't want to just repeat myself over and over and over again but let's sum up as I see it.

Using basketball is not in any way appropriate. They choose 60+ teams, which eliminates any controversy because everyone with even a slight chance to win gets in and then some. They can't take that many teams in DI college football. They don't in the lower divisions and they couldn't in DI, thus you would be forced to leave out teams that have a legit shot. Give me just one reason this isn't true.

Again, no matter what arguement you have presented using the basketball tournament it's simply not close to the same thing. I don't get why you can't see the difference. If I were you I would stick with the other football divisions for your arguement. Taking 64 teams is a hell of a lot easier and different than taking eight or even 16. No one cares what team got left out of the basketball tournament because they are the 65th best team in the country and had zero shot anyway. But you can honestly tell me the team ranked ninth in college football is similar? That they have zero shot and no one would see this as bad? That several other teams wouldn't have a great case as well?

I never brought up the logistics of doing a playoff. Don't buy the student athelete arguement against it either and stated as such in more than one post from that previous thread.

The fact is with basketball and other divisions of football they have situations that make it less high profile for the teams that get left out. Basketball takes enough teams to make no one care who gets left out. DII leaves out deserving teams(this I know having gone to a DII school) but you can shout it to the world and no one will listen. People will listen in DI, and join the screaming. Again, how can you think that the reaction to a DII team getting left out would be the same as a DI major school getting screwed? If Notre Dame got left out, how many feature stories would ESPN run on it?

And yet again, I never said the team winning the playoffs wouldn't be considered by everyone to be the champion. That has nothing to do with my points. I'm saying the reason people complain so loudly right now is that deserving teams who might have the ability to win the title are never given that opportunity. Going to a playoff does not fix this problem, it just adds to the number of teams that have legitimate complaints. Maybe none would have won, but you have to admit most seaons teams 9-12 and then some are good enough to beat anyone above them on the right day. They would likely some of them have a win against a higher ranked team that makes the playoffs. In other words they would have a very good point about being left out, and it would cost them millions. So how to fix it then? I don't believe there is a way to eliminate the controversy from selection teams for a DI playoff. Maybe they could come up with something but I think it would have to alter all conferences, and redo all the scheduling to have it work. In other words scrap everything we know and work from there. I don't want that even if they could do it.

As one last statement let me say this. I am not against a playoff because I don't think they could make it work. I've never really thought that. My problem is I don't think it gets rid of all obnoxious whiny people who are in college football now bitching about polls and the BCS. I think they just get more fodder to bitch about with a playoff. I don't want to listen to this forever so I hope it never happens.

Secondly, I do feel you take away college footballs identity in a large way if you do this. College football is about rivalries and bowl games and great regular season matchups. It's always walked a different path from other sports or other football leagues and it's being different is the reason I love it and have for over 20 years now. I don't want the Rose Bowl to become the every fourth year playoff final game, and be the semifinal every other year because it being "the Rose Bowl" won't matter anymore. I don't just like college football, I love it. Live and breath it year in and year out.

In other words I'm selfish and I don't want anything to change what I love. But that does not in any way invalidate the many points I made about why a playoff won't help things and all the points you've been ignoring as to an explanation. Honestly it's almost like you're trolling when you keep bringing up things like the "sue" line when I've explained the context of that over and over again.
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#27 Posted on 7.10.06 2355.26
Reposted on: 7.10.13 2356.36
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    Using basketball is not in any way appropriate. They choose 60+ teams, which eliminates any controversy because everyone with even a slight chance to win gets in and then some.

Actually, they choose the 34 teams which aren't conference champions.

    Originally posted by wmatistic
    If I were you I would stick with the other football divisions for your arguement. Taking 64 teams is a hell of a lot easier and different than taking eight or even 16. No one cares what team got left out of the basketball tournament because they are the 65th best team in the country and had zero shot anyway. But you can honestly tell me the team ranked ninth in college football is similar?


Ok, let's compare the other division like you said.
I-AA has a 16 team playoff, and has 113 playoff-eligible schools (14%) (Ivy League doesn't participate in any playoffs). 11 conference champs get guaranteed spots, and the other 5 are at-large teams.
Division II has a 24-team playoff, and has 148 schools (16%). No spots are guaranteed. The top 6 from each of the 4 regions make the playoffs.
Division III has a 32-team playoff, and has 233 schools (14%). 21 conferences get automatic bids, 4 bids go to independents and conference champs without automatic bids, and the other 7 go to at-large teams.

There are 119 I-A football schools, so I don't see why they can't do a 16-team playoff like I-AA does. I think we could get by with just the 6 BCS conferences having guaranteed bids. Does a bad C-USA, MAC, MWC, Sun Belt, or WAC team that happens to win their conference championship deserve to be in the playoffs? Not necessarily.

So let's imagine a 16 team I-A playoff. Let's not think about seeding too hard, and just give the Top 16 teams in the coaches poll playoff spots. Obviously, they can do a bracket like basketball does, and let the experts decide the 16 most worthy teams if they want to. After the conference championships last year, these were the Top 16 teams: USC, Texas, Penn State, Ohio State, Oregon, Notre Dame, Auburn, Georgia, Miami, LSU, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, Alabama, TCU, Texas Tech, and Louisville.
Just missing the playoffs were UCLA, Florida, Boston College, and Wisconsin. Under these rankings, every team with 2 or less losses makes the playoffs except UCLA, who finished 3rd in the Pac 10 behind USC and Oregon. Even little old TCU gets a chance!

I don't really know much about college football, so let me ask you this: do any of those four that were just out of the playoffs stand a chance of winning 4 straight against say, USC, Georgia, Ohio State, and Texas? Hell, do any of the 103 teams that didn't make the playoffs have a chance of beating those four (which is what the 16-seed would have to do, barring other upsets?) Because if not, then they have no reason to expect to make the playoffs at all.

And as for timing: the I-AA schools had their last regular season game on November 19th. The four rounds of playoffs went the next 4 weeks, and the championship game was December 16th. The championship games last year in I-A were on December 3rd, which means they can have the championship game by January 1st. Or they can give them a week off and have it on January 7th like the BCS Championship game is this year.

Edit: Added more information about playoffs in I-AA, II, and III.

(edited by Mr. Boffo on 8.10.06 0025)
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#28 Posted on 8.10.06 1031.08
Reposted on: 8.10.13 1033.38
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    I don't really know much about college football, so let me ask you this: do any of those four that were just out of the playoffs stand a chance of winning 4 straight against say, USC, Georgia, Ohio State, and Texas? Hell, do any of the 103 teams that didn't make the playoffs have a chance of beating those four (which is what the 16-seed would have to do, barring other upsets?) Because if not, then they have no reason to expect to make the playoffs at all.


That's kind of what I'm thinking, too. I said, I'd kind of rather make it 8 teams, since that'd be a little faster to do and I don't think the #9 team would have a legit shot; I say that even being biased (since after last week's losses, I think Tennessee would end up at #9 if the polls do what I expect). Still, if it's 16 teams I'm not going to quibble - I just think it's slightly more feasbile.

Also, largely unrelated to the topic at hand: BucsFan, FSU winning the ACC? Really? Only if they fire Jeffy.
JayJayDean
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#29 Posted on 8.10.06 1227.10
Reposted on: 8.10.13 1229.01

    Honestly this explains a lot, because a lot of the "points" you attribute to me I never made there and you leave out the actual reasons I gave as though I never gave any. It's like you just weren't paying attention or didn't care.


I admit I went back though the other thread to find some points I brought up that you refuted. Neither you or I have brought up the student-athlete thing, so I don't now how it came up. I also kind of lumped you and Bucs together when from when he was talking about how there are two champions.

I don't get why you don't see the basketball tournament as an obvious model for a football tournament to follow. You know there are some 320 D-I basketball teams, right? 65/320 is just over 20%. You really don't think they could take the top 20% of the college football teams and put them in a bracket? Really?

Like Mr. Boffo pointed out, there are automatic qualifiers from each conference. I'd keep this for a football tournament and add 9 at-large teams. (I know that a North Texas has no chance to win a title, but they invite the Winthrops to the basketball tournament and it's better for it, I think.) You don't think a bunch of guys could go into a room and crunch some numbers and get the 9 best teams for the tournament? They get 31 teams for a basketball tournament. How are they different?

You seem totally concerned about this uproar that could come up from the bubble team that gets left out. I think we just have to agree to disagree that it would be similar to the bubble teams that get left out in basketball that you hear about them Monday and then they are quickly forgotten. I don't understand why you prefer this scenario:

- Three teams finish the season 12-0, two are chosen for the national championship game, the third is left out and has no chance for the big crystal football.

over

- Three teams finish the season 12-0, they get put into a bracket with a bunch of other teams that has one or two-loss seasons. A couple of teams that has three-loss seasons get in and a couple don't.

In MY opinion, any three-loss team that got left out could complain, but at the end of the day they would have to look back at the games they didn't win as to why they aren't in, and that would be OK with me.
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#30 Posted on 8.10.06 1355.19
Reposted on: 8.10.13 1359.02
I think you're right we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I do think they could of course select eight teams for a playoff, but I just see there being just as much controversy as there is now. You disagree and that's fine.

Especially for the SEC. It's such a tough conference and you know most teams are going to have a loss or two but be better or as good as teams with zero or one loss. I can definatly envision a good to great SEC team getting left out still.

I basically want a system where I don't have to read people bitching all the time and I see the best case as going back to the old ways, mostly because it also preserves so much of what college football has been over the previous century.

To me it wasn't about who was number one, it was about great games and entertainment so maybe that's why I don't have this desire to HAVE to see an undisputed champ every year.
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#31 Posted on 8.10.06 1701.29
Reposted on: 8.10.13 1701.33
There has always been controversy (or as you say, "bitching"). That's why the BCS was created in the first place. Now I understand partly where you are coming from, as I believe if you are not going to do a full playoff, you should just go back to the old traditions and not try to pretend that you have a legitimate National Championship system. It may be OK that a sport doesn't name a National Championship, and teams can focus on things they can win on the field, like conference championships and bowl games.

I like a playoff because while it may have flaws, they tend to be on-the-field flaws as opposed to off-the-field flaws. Assuming you do a 16 team (and I do think you need 16 teams), even if a team does gripe about getting left out, they still would have had to blown an opportunity to do something about it on the field. The current system allows for teams to have gripes that could do nothing different on the field.

That said, as I said before, we won't have a playoff. The people who matter control the money and don't want to share with the NCAA, so it won't happen. Given that, I wished they would just go back to the old days without the lousy BCS and lousy tie-ins for all the bowls (except the traditional tie-ins). But that's not going to happen either. Enough people buy into what I believe is the myth that the BCS is better than nothing, and bowls are not going to risk not having tie-ins. So we are pretty much stuck with the current system.

(edited by ges7184 on 8.10.06 1701)
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