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The 7 - Baseball - HGH scandal
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wmatistic
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#1 Posted on 7.6.06 1526.13
Reposted on: 7.6.13 1527.07
Ok so now it's gonna get real bad. Grimsley named a lot of names, and it'll only be a matter of time before we find out who they were. In fact Dan Patrick said he has already spoken with someone close to the investigation who told him three names that are on there and two will "shock you".

Not to mention if this guy was right about a "boatload" of players using the same supplier as him, and he told them that in April, they've been probably investigating that supplier for two months now and likely have a list of their own.

Only answer at this point is for Selig to demand blood sample testing immediatly in my view. Can't wait for this to all slowly trickle out again like the steroid thing. Threaten to lock the players out if they won't go for it.

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mountinman44
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#2 Posted on 7.6.06 1751.12
Reposted on: 7.6.13 1753.26
I just finished reading the FBI report. It looks like Grimsley named about ten current and former players. He was also one of the guys that tested positive during the "survey" testing in 2003. He admitted to taking HGH, Deca-Durabolin (in 2000 with the Yankees) and Clenbuterol. One of the players he named was a teammate of his on the Baltimore Orioles last season. I think we're going to start getting some names very quickly. Let the speculation begin!
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#3 Posted on 7.6.06 1922.11
Reposted on: 7.6.13 1922.11
One of the players he named was a teammate of his on the Baltimore Orioles last season.

I'd be willing to put money on Rafael Palmeiro myself.

The whole thing remains a joke until baseball cracks down, and cracks down hard. Someone (I'm thinking Buster Olney) on ESPN suggested that baseball demand blood samples from active players, and essentially tell 'em that "we can't test for HGH yet, but when we can, we will. Results will be made public. If you're still active, you will be punished. If you're retired, you will have your numbers revoked, and be turned into a public spectacle."

Sounds good to me.
redsoxnation
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#4 Posted on 7.6.06 2141.15
Reposted on: 7.6.13 2141.52
    Originally posted by cfgb
    One of the players he named was a teammate of his on the Baltimore Orioles last season.

    I'd be willing to put money on Rafael Palmeiro myself.

    The whole thing remains a joke until baseball cracks down, and cracks down hard. Someone (I'm thinking Buster Olney) on ESPN suggested that baseball demand blood samples from active players, and essentially tell 'em that "we can't test for HGH yet, but when we can, we will. Results will be made public. If you're still active, you will be punished. If you're retired, you will have your numbers revoked, and be turned into a public spectacle."

    Sounds good to me.





Don't forget Sosa was on that Orioles team. And, for those keeping score, that is now 2 members of the 2000 New York Yankees on steroids, in Grimsley and Canseco. Of course, since Canseco brought steroids to the A's and Rangers clubhouse, why doesn't anyone question whether a pitcher who struggled for 3 seasons before Canseco arrived on the Red Sox, and then found a second life after hooking up with Canseco, was on the juice?
And within 4 seconds of that statement being made, Gene Orza and Don Fehr would state they would get blood from the players over their dead bodies and the 2007 season would be in peril due to this being the last season of the CBA.
Of course, I'm still awaiting the hue and cry over the fact that the NFL doesn't test for HGH either. Of course, it isn't like any punters have been accused of steroid use, so no linemen would ever use HGH.
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#5 Posted on 7.6.06 2228.46
Reposted on: 7.6.13 2229.01
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Don't forget Sosa was on that Orioles team. And, for those keeping score, that is now 2 members of the 2000 New York Yankees on steroids, in Grimsley and Canseco. Of course, since Canseco brought steroids to the A's and Rangers clubhouse, why doesn't anyone question whether a pitcher who struggled for 3 seasons before Canseco arrived on the Red Sox, and then found a second life after hooking up with Canseco, was on the juice?


Someone with some time on their hands could do a pretty serious study using baseball-reference.com and such using this logic. Canseco is a major source, and Grimsley is perhaps a major tributary flowing from that source. Who else, then?

My money is on Miguel Tejeda in the O's clubhouse, by the way.

    Originally posted by redsonation
    Of course, I'm still awaiting the hue and cry over the fact that the NFL doesn't test for HGH either. Of course, it isn't like any punters have been accused of steroid use, so no linemen would ever use HGH.


Looking at some of the heads in the NFL (a major side effect of HGH abuse), I don't think there's any question.

*cough* Takeo Spikes (buffalobills.com) *cough*

Edited to add: Apparently the dots are being connected, and one of them connects to... Albert Pujols!?! (deadspin.com)

(edited by Alpha Dog on 8.6.06 1621)
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#6 Posted on 9.6.06 1648.29
Reposted on: 9.6.13 1649.13

    why doesn't anyone question whether a pitcher who struggled for 3 seasons before Canseco arrived on the Red Sox, and then found a second life after hooking up with Canseco, was on the juice?


No less of a big time pundit as MYSELF did so. The whole will he/won't he deal seems like a guy who was weighing risk vs. reward of one final gigantic payday against coming back for a final season as the pitching version of broken down Bonds. But I guess if he's still great this year I'll look pretty silly for saying that (and he'll be on something undetectable).
It's False
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#7 Posted on 9.6.06 2227.08
Reposted on: 9.6.13 2228.01
One of the major factors of this story is that the feds took it upon themselves to search Grimsley's home after he refused to wear a wire to get evidence against Barry Bonds. The questions I have are:

1) Why would ANYBODY risk prison time, becoming a pariah in the eyes of baseball fans, and becoming a permanent stain to the game itself to protect BARRY BONDS, of all people?
2) What does this say about how much trouble Bonds is REALLY in?

I can't remember any instance in which federal agents were using wires and such to try and take down a professional athlete. The next few weeks are going to be very interesting, because I'd be shocked if this didn't leave Bonds extremely paranoid. If the feds were willing to put a wire on Grimsley, what's to say that Bonds' phone isn't secretly bugged or that another teammate isn't working with the feds or that the janitor isn't an undercover FBI officer?

The Grimsley fiasco doesn't just open up a new can of worms for baseball, but it blows an existing scandal even more wide open that it already was.
wmatistic
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#8 Posted on 9.6.06 2314.23
Reposted on: 9.6.13 2315.43
Well this was just the IRS, who we knew were investigating him anyway. But now we have word that MLB was trying to get his ex to testify and the government won't let her due to their investigation, which to me says they will be prosecuting him in some form.

I think two things are pretty sure right now:

1. Barry Bonds will go down and go down hard. Either from the IRS, FBI or MLB or all three.

2. A whole lot of other players are going down with him and Grimsley.

Baseball is gonna have to make some more major changes and we'll hopefully find out more about who's been on the level and who hasn't. After how badly everyone involved in the steroid thing was treated by the fans, deservedly, I can't understand why so many of these guys are apparently still trying to cheat. Oh I can, but I think it's just retarded at this point. Did they not think it would get out somehow? With the government and baseball both doing investigations?
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#9 Posted on 11.6.06 0048.12
Reposted on: 11.6.13 0048.13
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    1. Barry Bonds will go down and go down hard. Either from the IRS, FBI or MLB or all three.


Something is definitely starting to happen behind the scenes. Today, Bonds has dropped his lawsuit against the writers of "Game of Shadows" (sports.espn.go.com) and even more telling (in my estimation) is that Bonds' attorney announced today that Bonds will cooperate with George Mitchell's investigation, provided he gets amnesty from federal prosecutors. (nydailynews.com)

I'm assuming Bonds wants at least protection from a seemingly inevitable perjury rap.

    Originally posted by wmatastic
    2. A whole lot of other players are going down with him and Grimsley.


The Grimsley case definitely feels like the tipping point for the whole "drugs in MLB" scandal. The feds trying to get players to wear wires and flip their peers, the feds not allowing Bonds' ex-girlfriend to testify in Mitchell's MLB investigation in order to not diminish their own case, implications of the game's most revered players - this is going to get very bad, very quickly.

On a side note, I'd like to give a hearty "Fuck you, motherfucker" to Jason Grimsley, who has seemingly sent my beloved Diamondbacks into a season-crushing tailspin, as they have been outscored 39-11 in the 5 games since this story broke and have lost 6 straight. They were shutout on 2 hits tonight by someone named Alay Soler who came into the game tonight with a 7.36 ERA. The D-Backs have played since Tuesday night like a team that's had their heart ripped out, and tomorrow they get Pedro Martinez (against the decomposing corpse of Russ Ortiz) before a merciful off day, when I hope they can regroup.

Thanks for plastering a big D-Backs logo on your mug shot which is now the new face of the Doping in MLB scandal that's on every newscast, Grimsley.
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#10 Posted on 11.6.06 0200.19
Reposted on: 11.6.13 0200.51
    Originally posted by Alpha Dog
    On a side note, I'd like to give a hearty "Fuck you, motherfucker" to Jason Grimsley, who has seemingly sent my beloved Diamondbacks into a season-crushing tailspin, as they have been outscored 39-11 in the 5 games since this story broke and have lost 6 straight. They were shutout on 2 hits tonight by someone named Alay Soler who came into the game tonight with a 7.36 ERA. The D-Backs have played since Tuesday night like a team that's had their heart ripped out, and tomorrow they get Pedro Martinez (against the decomposing corpse of Russ Ortiz) before a merciful off day, when I hope they can regroup.

    Thanks for plastering a big D-Backs logo on your mug shot which is now the new face of the Doping in MLB scandal that's on every newscast, Grimsley.


You should probably sit down before reading this post.

Yes, he was caught cheating. Yes, he's a pariah to the game. Yes, he's brought down a whole new scandal to baseball that it didn't need. And yes, he's brought a level of scrutiny to the D-Backs never before seen.

But Jason Grimsley wants his MONEY, dammit!


    Jason Grimsley plans to fight the Arizona Diamondbacks' decision to withhold the remainder of his $825,000 salary, prompting an angry response from the team's managing general partner.


This speaks for itself.
TheBucsFan
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#11 Posted on 11.6.06 0720.15
Reposted on: 11.6.13 0723.05
I hope none of this in anyway involves Albert Pujols.

Baseball needs him right now, and will need him even more over the next few seasons.
wmatistic
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#12 Posted on 11.6.06 0812.25
Reposted on: 11.6.13 0812.47
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    I hope none of this in anyway involves Albert Pujols.

    Baseball needs him right now, and will need him even more over the next few seasons.


Well they need him if he's been playing fair, which I hope he has. The link to him is only that his trainer may possibly be a person who has told a player about a source for where to get HGH. Not a good thing, but at the same time I'm betting most if not all trainers could probably tell you where to get stuff like that. Hell my high school football coaches could give you the name of a guy.
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#13 Posted on 12.6.06 1002.42
Reposted on: 12.6.13 1003.53
    Originally posted by wmatistic
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      I hope none of this in anyway involves Albert Pujols.

      Baseball needs him right now, and will need him even more over the next few seasons.


    Well they need him if he's been playing fair, which I hope he has. The link to him is only that his trainer may possibly be a person who has told a player about a source for where to get HGH. Not a good thing, but at the same time I'm betting most if not all trainers could probably tell you where to get stuff like that. Hell my high school football coaches could give you the name of a guy.

Except that he and his trainer as described as "soul brothers" by Pujols' sister. It's not like these two are just casual or even business acquaintances.

I'm not wishing he's guilty, I'm just saying it's a little worse than "he knows him".
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#14 Posted on 12.6.06 1755.06
Reposted on: 12.6.13 1755.20
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    Except that he and his trainer as described as "soul brothers" by Pujols' sister. It's not like these two are just casual or even business acquaintances.

    I'm not wishing he's guilty, I'm just saying it's a little worse than "he knows him".


This article from 2001 (810whb.com) certainly seems pretty damning in hindsight.

From the article: "Consequently, a frustrated Albert Pujols -- after spending a year at Kansas City's Maple Woods Community College, where he met strength and conditioning guru Chris Mihlfeld and started the process of building an Adonis-like upper body-- waited 13 rounds before getting the call from the Cardinals." The younger Pujols is also described as "really kind of a pear-shaped kid, heavy from the waist down, and that scared some scouts off."

What's funny is that you would never hear baseball players described as "ripped" and "Adonis-like" anymore - the use of drugs has taken all of that talk away.

It certainly paints an interesting and ultimately reasonable picture: A frustrated young Pujols is unable to properly hone his talents despite his natural skill. He meets Mihlfeld, who wants to be involved in baseball in the worst way, and certainly knows how to help players get stronger, and stronger is better.

Perhaps the reasons for Pujols' preternatural talents at such a young age are explainable after all. Maybe Pujols is what Bonds would have been if chemistry was as known and exploitable in 1987.

(edited by Alpha Dog on 12.6.06 1556)
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#15 Posted on 12.6.06 1919.40
Reposted on: 12.6.13 1919.57
    Originally posted by cfgb
    One of the players he named was a teammate of his on the Baltimore Orioles last season.

    I'd be willing to put money on Rafael Palmeiro myself.

    The whole thing remains a joke until baseball cracks down, and cracks down hard. Someone (I'm thinking Buster Olney) on ESPN suggested that baseball demand blood samples from active players, and essentially tell 'em that "we can't test for HGH yet, but when we can, we will. Results will be made public. If you're still active, you will be punished. If you're retired, you will have your numbers revoked, and be turned into a public spectacle."

    Sounds good to me.


Most people like this idea, but it sounds worthless unless you will test the blood now. To wait until you get a perfect HGH testing method, which may take 10 or more years is absurd. You can't travel back in time to punish people for failing a futuristic blood test that doesn't currently exist. If you want to test now for HGH you need to accept the > 1% amount of false positives and run with it.

You are well within your rights to be skeptical of everyone, especially the best athletes. However, just because I got all As in school doesn't mean I cheated. People don't take just HGH. If you've learned anything from Caminitti, Canseco, Bonds, Grimsley,... it should have been that they don't just take one thing, they take a whole shitload of drugs. Taking just the "undetectable" HGH won't have much performance improvement anyway.

Clemens has not failed any, even the world baseball classic regular drug tests. He has an old man body and a low 90's fastball. I'm all for baseless speculation, but he seems on the side of the clean guys in this one.


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#16 Posted on 13.6.06 0845.56
Reposted on: 13.6.13 0846.14
There are valid analytical methods for HGH testing in place NOW. I am told that one of the main issues would be in determining normal HGH ranges, as there are many things that affect the normal growth hormone secretion which occurs in the body. MLB and the MLBPA would have to agree on normal ranges and how positive thresholds are established. As far as discerning between natural and synthetic growth hormones - that is probably where the true question lies, but why wouldn't the testing of levels be a good starting place?
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