The W
Views: 98304349
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
20.8.07 1336
The 7 - Sports that aren't Baseball, Football, Basketball, or Hockey - UFC 60: Hughes vs. Gracie
This thread has 14 referrals leading to it
Register and log in to post!
(87 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (15 total)
GimmickMan
Longanisa
Level: 14

Posts: 36/36
EXP: 12618
For next: 453

Since: 16.4.05
From: East Lansing, MI

Since last post: 3007 days
Last activity: 1940 days
AIM:  
#1 Posted on 26.5.06 2108.42
Reposted on: 26.5.13 2109.01
Anyone going to be order this? I am!

I don't know about you guys, but I got Hughes by destruction in the main event.

Joe Riggs vs. Mike Swick should be the fight of the night.

I did a preview for my website, so if you want to go check it out, go to http://www.thetvtimeout.com

Promote this thread!
samoflange
Lap cheong
Level: 80

Posts: 495/1786
EXP: 4672461
For next: 110528

Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 308 days
Last activity: 300 days
#2 Posted on 26.5.06 2140.23
Reposted on: 26.5.13 2140.48
Just moved to a city, so there are finally decent sports bar to go see UFC ppvs at. I'll be seeing this one, and its the first UFC event I've seen since UFC 9 I believe.

Don't know much in the way as who's who, but I'm sure it'll be a fun time.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator
Level: 138

Posts: 4024/5999
EXP: 31639446
For next: 23614

Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 18 hours
AIM:  
#3 Posted on 26.5.06 2257.08
Reposted on: 26.5.13 2257.13
My prediction:

Gracie does what he always does - win in an extraordinarily boring fashion.

Or, he'll get his ass handed to him.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator
Level: 212

Posts: 7713/16156
EXP: 139833069
For next: 1202717

Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 20 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#4 Posted on 27.5.06 1158.59
Reposted on: 27.5.13 1159.01
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    My prediction:

    Gracie does what he always does - win in an extraordinarily boring fashion.

    Or, he'll get his ass handed to him.
Way to ride the fence, Mr. UFC.

Gracie is in big trouble (but since he's getting a big payday, he's willing to ignore that).

I hope you guys watching it come back and tell us how it was - as usual, I am too cheap to spring for it, and I hate having to rely on someone telling me what MELTZ thought of it a week later after the WON comes out. ;-)
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator
Level: 138

Posts: 4026/5999
EXP: 31639446
For next: 23614

Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 11 days
Last activity: 18 hours
AIM:  
#5 Posted on 27.5.06 1213.26
Reposted on: 27.5.13 1213.28
I stopped watching UFC around UFC 8 or so. I used to watch every one.

Then I noticed that Gracie appeared to have a financial stake in the company (there were Gracies all over the credits) and I realized I didn't like watching him lay on the mat for 10 minutes.

Gracie has been out of it long enough that he either really needs a paycheck or he knows he can beat this guy. I'm assuming that it is a little of A and a little of B. If he doesn't need the check, he's going to smoke the guy because he knows he can win. If he really needs the check he might lose.

Either way, I can't see him becoming an interesting fighter (for me) so since I don't really want to see him lose, I'm not going to try to figure out a way to order this.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator
Level: 212

Posts: 7718/16156
EXP: 139833069
For next: 1202717

Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 20 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#6 Posted on 27.5.06 1222.51
Reposted on: 27.5.13 1222.57
Seriously, if you haven't watched UFC for ten years, you've got to stop posting because you're showing your ignorance. I'm saying this with all the brotherly love in the world. Just stop. Seriously. Stop. The other people won't make fun of you because you're an admin, but I don't have those qualms. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.
orangeman
Salami
Level: 32

Posts: 217/224
EXP: 202586
For next: 3858

Since: 21.8.04
From: ...that would be telling

Since last post: 2983 days
Last activity: 2929 days
#7 Posted on 28.5.06 0223.09
Reposted on: 28.5.13 0225.07
I watched it, see below for the Hughes vs. Gracie result.


Spoiler Below: Highlight text to read
Hughes beat Gracie by TKO with about 30 seconds left in round 1, he had Royce's back and pounded him out. Royce wasn't defending himself. Quite one sided.
CarlCX
Salami
Level: 33

Posts: 136/217
EXP: 214288
For next: 14894

Since: 1.5.02
From: California.

Since last post: 233 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#8 Posted on 28.5.06 0233.44
Reposted on: 28.5.13 0234.17
Well, I did pretty good this time around, went 8/9 on my predictions (damn your eyes, Gabriel Gonzaga). The show as a whole was quite solid, surprisingly--no bad or terribly slow fights, some spectacular exchanges and only one decision. Joe Riggs and Assuerio Silva kind of walked into their respective submission losses, but I expected that from Riggs, who remains one of the world's most annoyingly overconfident fighters despite regular losses.

As for Hughes/Gracie...y'know, it's odd, as I really like Hughes and really dislike Royce, but in a way, I was rooting for the old man. All conventional wisdom pointed to Hughes winning easily by taking Gracie down and just punching him into a bloody smear: Royce is getting old, Royce hadn't fought a regulated fight in years, Royce hadn't fought a truly competitive opponent in years, Royce hasn't grown much with the sport, etc. Despite being the founding father of the sport, Royce was the underdog, and I had to feel for him.

That being said, my fantasy pick was Hughes by way of ground-and-pound TKO, and I wasn't disappointed. Hughes confirmed most critical thought on the idea of BJJ no longer being entirely effective as a singular fighting style, as well as most critical thought on the idea of Royce as a modern-level fighter at all. He gave Royce absolutely no chance to fight back, controlled him on the ground, and had it been anyone but a Gracie, would have tapped him out with the kimura a few minutes into the round, rather than having to go to the back-mount and strikes.

Sad to see him go down that way, but I'm glad to see the debate ended. I hope the Gracies will finally shut up about their control over the MMA world, and focus on upgrading their teaching style to better prepare the next generation of annoying Brazilian fighters that will force me to mis-pronounce names starting with R for the next decade.
Big Bad
Scrapple
Level: 145

Posts: 3988/6718
EXP: 37392212
For next: 211960

Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 11 hours
Last activity: 10 hours
#9 Posted on 28.5.06 2252.33
Reposted on: 28.5.13 2252.39
I had never seen Gracie fight except for UFC clips, so I successfully bought into the mystique of his ground superiority. Ergo, I went 'oh shit' twice in the fight...once when they went down on the mat for the first time, and I thought Gracie was making Matt fight his kind of fight. Second, when Gracie somehow escaped that armbar, since the no-expression look on his face made me think, 'Jesus, this guy isn't worried at all.' Perhaps this made me think it was a closer fight than it actually was.

I don't think it was quite the verdict that Gracie was 'out of touch' with the modern fight game since, frankly, Hughes has made a lot of fighters look a lot worse. I wonder how Gracie would do against a mid-level guy in the welterweight division.
Sobriquet
Bauerwurst
Level: 23

Posts: 74/106
EXP: 66186
For next: 1538

Since: 25.7.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 2167 days
Last activity: 2166 days
#10 Posted on 29.5.06 0115.48
Reposted on: 29.5.13 0116.03
Highlight of the night for me was Sanchez riding Alessio's back for three and a half minutes, with Alessio stuffing everything Sanchez tried. That was just an amazing show of endurance, skill, defense, and heart. It's unfortunate Sanchez won, but c'est la vie -- aggression wins fights, and Alessio was more or less content to counter for fifteen minutes.

Runner up was Vera's impressive guillotine on Silva -- sinking that in while being slammed was just pretty.

On to the main event:

People who feel the Hughes/Gracie fight exposes Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as one dimensional obviously do not know the names BJ Penn, Nogueiro (Big or Little), Dean Lister, and many others, men who rely almost entirely on fantastic BJJ games. And Dennis Hallman needs mention, a man who subbed Hughes not once, but twice, both times in under 20 seconds.

The fight exposes Royce as a 39 year old who is more or less out of shape, not as a joke of a fighter. For that matter, he nearly caught Hughes transitioning from the armbar -- were it not for the man's freakish ape-strength, he may very well have gotten tapped. Still, Hughes showed remarkable skill in out working one of the greats, even if it was superior strength and conditioning more than anything else that won the day.

The bottom line is Hughes is one of the very, very best at what he does. He's 33, in his prime, and is an extraordinary physical specimen. Beating a past-his-prime Gracie really does nothing for him except for the casual fan (which was the entire point of the spectacle to begin with). He needs to beat BJ Penn in a rematch if he's to "expose" anything -- Penn embaressed Hughes the first time around.

Lastly, just a few technical notes:

1) It was not a kimura, but a straight up armbar, and one that really didn't have the full muscle of Hughes behind it due to unfavourable positioning. I suspect Gracie didn't look too concerned because he wasn't in overly much pain or in overly much trouble -- the fact his elbow was hyperextended really means little. Years of conditioning his joints to take such stress goes a long way. I've seen and heard a number of people refer to the lock as a kimura... that's akin to calling a head lock a russian leg sweep!

2) "I hope the Gracies will finally shut up about their control over the MMA world, and focus on upgrading their teaching style to better prepare the next generation of annoying Brazilian fighters that will force me to mis-pronounce names starting with R for the next decade." I suspect this is mostly sarcasm, but nevertheless, here goes: the new crop of Gracies coming up train extensively in standup, and by all accounts boast a remarkable and well rounded fight game -- they've adapted to the sport just like everybody else. While not great MMA fighters, guys like Cesar Gracie and Renzo Gracie are considered some of the best instructers out there. The fact that a 39 year old Royce couldn't adopt a superior striking game should be of no surprise. He has mostly fought in exhibitions since the Sakuraba fight in 2000.

Royce knew what he was getting into -- and was incredibly humble and gracious in every interview I saw. It wasn't Royce mocking his opponent or claiming he coulnd't lose -- Hughes did enough of that for both of them. Royce had a chance, sure -- he wouldn't have taken the fight if he didn't, but I think even he knew it was a slim one at best.

Anyway, you can slag the Gracies for A LOT, believe me, but their dedication to MMA, training, and adapting both is not one of them. Many of them are not nice people, but that's entirely beside the point.

Wait, no it isn't -- Royce showed a lot of class through the entire thing. Insulting him just seems contrived.

(Edit: re-reading this, it truly sounds ridiculously pro Royce and anti Hughes. It isn't meant to. They were hyping a fight, a classic passing of the torch from old guard to new; Hughes said -- and did -- what was required of him, and at the end of the day they both put on a good show. MMA's the better for it, and hopefully it brings new fans to the sport who haven't watched since Royce dominated in the early 90s)



(edited by Sobriquet on 29.5.06 0220)

(edited by Sobriquet on 29.5.06 0223)

(edited by Sobriquet on 29.5.06 0229)
CarlCX
Salami
Level: 33

Posts: 137/217
EXP: 214288
For next: 14894

Since: 1.5.02
From: California.

Since last post: 233 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#11 Posted on 29.5.06 0406.52
Reposted on: 29.5.13 0407.03
Yeah, most of my anti-Gracie rhetoric was more for flavor than indicative of an actual distaste for the family; my only real point of dissent with the Gracie clan is their occasional, near-bullying insistence on the use of vale tudo rules when they fight, most notably in the Royce/Sakuraba classic back in Pride, as a way of covering for the lack of evolution in the fighting styles of the elder Gracies.

And that was my point, really, in the anti-BJJ statement--not that BJJ isn't still an extremely effective combat art, but that the old, Royce-style BJJ that the Gracies have been slow to update was designed to work on a different class of fighter, one that was still entirely centered on standup as the end-all, be-all of fighting, and is becoming less effective. The new generation of Gracies are more nebulous with their skills, but even they get stopped by the fighters who are truly good at being more all-encompassing with fighting arts--Ralph had Gomi, Renzo had Dan Henderson, Royler had Genki Sudo, and of course, they all had Sakuraba.

There are examples even in the names you listed: Nog's training started in judo and he's augmented his grappling with traditional boxing, Lister's background includes sambo and greco, etc. Hallman serves as a good example, really. Pure wrestling is still viable in MMA--but as a base art, something to be built upon. When Hughes fought Hallman, all he had was wrestling, and Hallman schooled him appropriately. Hughes has since evolved as a fighter, and if you want to play MMA math, was able to put his newer, more well-rounded skills to use in his victories over Frank Trigg, who beat Hallman pretty convincingly.

My point is, BJJ is still dangerous, but I see it gradually falling to the same fate pure wrestling has in the MMA scheme, truly effective only when used as a foundation which is built on and augmented by more offensive arts. There will always be guys who are just naturally amazing with singular arts, the Yoshidas and BJ Penns of the world, but the guys who make it to the top and stay there--Hughes, Fedor, Nog, Gomi--are the ones who stay malleable and evolve with the sport, rather than simply becoming experts at one art in particular. We'll see just how well the apparent additions to the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu training have worked in the next five years or so, as new students come through.

Good catch on the kimura, though, I'm not sure what I was saying there.

In any case, I'm terribly interested in Hughes/GSP 2, now. That's going to be one hell of a fight.
Sobriquet
Bauerwurst
Level: 23

Posts: 75/106
EXP: 66186
For next: 1538

Since: 25.7.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 2167 days
Last activity: 2166 days
#12 Posted on 29.5.06 1205.49
Reposted on: 29.5.13 1206.39
By "new Gracies" I was refering to guys like Rhalan and Daniel -- there's some slow burning hype surrounding a number of late teen and early twenties guys who are (reportedly) beasts on the ground and standing up. We shall see. (As a note, Royler is older than Royce, so he's a bad example!)

The truth is, though, that any successful guy nowadays crosstrains -- even Royce was crosstraining for the Hughes fight, taking instruction in american boxing and muay thai, though it was apparent that it was too little too late. If you're amazing in one style, you'll always have the chance to win... but the less rounded you are, the slimmer that chance.

As for the kimura distinction, no worries -- I've seen it referenced as such numerous times in print and spoken, and it baffles me. I think even Randy Couture called it a kimura, though it was hard to hear the commentary where I was watching it (crowded bar). I think the actual name is ude-hishigi-ude-gatame, but it's been years since I trained and I must plead ignorance.

Breaking it down, Hughes had contol more over the forearm than the wrist, which is likely why Royce was able to eventually work out of it. That lock relies on wrist control and extension; Hughes had the latter due to immense strength, but the technique wasn't quite there. You can't really fault Hughes, though, as it's tough to get wrist control wearing MMA gloves. Having said all that, I've been hearing rumblings that Royce's elbow popped -- it may have been more effective than I gave Hughes credit for. The Gracies are, after all, famous for not tapping, so who knows?

Anyway, on to another related topic: why no mention of Kazushi Sakuraba? I mean, he was there... he's the first guy to definitively beat Royce Gracie. Royce's record was even listed as "MMA Record: 11-0", which would have been fine if it were listed as his "UFC record" instead of his "MMA record". It was almost as if they were intentionally insulting Sakuraba. Furthermore, no Rickson Gracie, and oddly, no "Gracie Train" when Royce was on his way to the cage. Very strange for these things to be absent. I mean, Helio was there... you'd think the intimidating spectacle of a good dozen or so Gracies marching to ringside would have been used like it was back in the day.

Anyway, interesting card, and much better than I expected it to be, what with the Allesio, Vera, and Swick fights. I also hear the Horn fight was some brilliant sub work, though I have yet to see it.

And chalk me up as someone hyped for Hughes/GSP II -- I really believe GSP will win, and in dominant fashion. He almost subbed Hughes the first time around, and he's just gotten better by leaps and bounds since then. The man is remarkable. The ideal chain of events for me would be GSP over Hughes, Hughes and BJ Penn rematch, winner gets GSP in a rematch for the title. I mean, it's not like GSP beat Penn convincingly in their first go-round.

Tons of great stuff in store at Welterweight. And the Pride GP too!
CarlCX
Salami
Level: 33

Posts: 138/217
EXP: 214288
For next: 14894

Since: 1.5.02
From: California.

Since last post: 233 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
#13 Posted on 31.5.06 1709.50
Reposted on: 31.5.13 1709.51
Yeah, I haven't seen anything of the new-new Gracie fighters, so no comment there as of yet. And while Royler IS older than Royce, he didn't start fighting professionally until three years after Royce had, so I always kind of identified him as part of the second generation of Gracie fighters. But then, my logic is shaky.

I think Royce definitely took some damage to the elbow; he kept using his arm after Matt let go, but not for much other than just holding onto his head, no more punches or elbows. In either case, you're right in that the Gracies in general refuse to tap, and I think both points made Hughes give up the armbar: it sucks up energy to keep a hold like that, it was leaving him open for a possible reversal, and as Royce was most assuredly not going to tap, I don't think Hughes was prepared to break a man's arm, let alone put the UFC in position of explaining such a thing to the media.

Much as I like the UFC, it's always been their policy to ignore the existence of other major fight leagues. Call it an attempt to keep viewers from looking elsewhere for their MMA fix or one to simply make their fighters appear all the more unique, who knows--I was hoping they'd point out Sakuraba now that he's out of Pride, but I suppose it would have ruined their "Royce is undefeated" mojo. I can't say I like it, but until they bring Rampage in (I can dream, anyhow) I doubt it'll change. No Gracie Train confused me too, though. Maybe Royce doesn't like jumping around without the gi on.

I really don't know who's going to win the welterweight rematch. I adore both Hughes and GSP, I think GSP's definitely got the tools to carry the belt, but I can't see Hughes being dominated, at this point. He has strength, skill and willpower enough to stay on top, the only real factor I can see working against him at the moment is that, between Royce and Riggs, he hasn't had a truly competitive fight since Frank Trigg last year. Even so, though, Hughes isn't one to be less than prepared--so as far as I'm concerned, it's a tossup. My favorite kind of fight, really: two excellent fighters, both in their prime, both of comparable skill and technique, both of whom I like enough that any fair result will please me. Difficult to lose.

Call it a hunch, but I don't see Penn beating Hughes again--at the very least, not the way he did last time. Hughes has stepped his game up a few notches since his loss, and moreover, if GSP/Penn was any indication, the fire under Penn's ass that made him so good has chilled somewhat.

In any case, between that, Sylvia/Arlovski II, the remainder of the OWGP (even if Silva's the only non-heavyweight), and hopefully, Liddell/Babalu II, there's a lot to look forward to this year.
Big Bad
Scrapple
Level: 145

Posts: 3994/6718
EXP: 37392212
For next: 211960

Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 11 hours
Last activity: 10 hours
#14 Posted on 3.6.06 1404.47
Reposted on: 3.6.13 1405.41
What I like about Hughes is that he's dominant, but still has an aura of beatability about him. The fight with St. Pierre should be amazing (and I'm a big GSP fan, so I'm hoping he takes the title). The problem, to some extent, with Franklin and Liddell is that I can't see anyone beating them for the time being. It's one thing to have these huge marketable stars as your champs, but eventually some competition is going to have to rise up.

Brandon Vera, right now, would get destroyed by Chuck in about three minutes.....Vera is still 3-4 fights away. I actually like Vera a lot, though; he reminds me kind of like Maven, except with, y'know, talent.
Sobriquet
Bauerwurst
Level: 23

Posts: 76/106
EXP: 66186
For next: 1538

Since: 25.7.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 2167 days
Last activity: 2166 days
#15 Posted on 3.6.06 1933.25
Reposted on: 3.6.13 1933.50
You hold Hughes as the least of the three, eh? Interesting... I actually view him as much more dominant than Liddel, though perhaps not yet on the same level as Franklin -- who's performance against Loiuseau really, really impressed (and surprised) me.

Liddel... he is just too sloppy. He's got an excellent chin and hands like granite, but let's face it -- he's *not* a very skilled striker. He's an awkward striker with some natural talent that really stands out amongst MMA guys who by and large are piss poor strikers to begin with.

I really believe all it will take is someone to really scout that awkward striking, really get it down, and we'll see Liddel get dominated. Realistically, that man was Randy Couture -- I think age caught up with The Natural more than Liddel came into his own. Randy got sloppy, and he paid for it. In their first fight, both he and Liddel brought their A games and Liddel suffered greatly for it.

Besides, there's plenty of guys over in Pride, K1, WFA, and others, who could/would give these three as much as they could handle. If only there were more brotherly love amongst the warring promotions.

Anyway... now I've gotten way, way off topic. It's nice to find some interestind MMA discussion on The W, I must say. Perhaps I'll try and stir up some discussion with some threads.

Then again, best laid plans, good intentions, and all that stuff.

TO conclude, to respond a bit to Guru Zim's comments prior to the card itself -- so, so many people were brought back to watch a UFC card by the Gracie name it's kind of frightening. I think most people stopped watching around UFC 7 or 8, so you're certainly not alone. In that respect, what a great success UFC 60 was. It really doesn't matter that people came to watch fully expecting Gracie to dominate (even if in a boring fashion); what matters is it was a good, interesting card, and hopefully some old, casual fans have been brought back into the fold.

(edited by Sobriquet on 3.6.06 2040)
ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE
Thread ahead: World Cup schedule - this weekend
Next thread: The Lance Armstrong Steroid Saga
Previous thread: David Duval Update
(87 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
Related threads: Liddell vs. Couture - UFC 54: Boiling Point - UFC 8/6/05 - More...
The 7 - Sports that aren't Baseball, Football, Basketball, or Hockey - UFC 60: Hughes vs. GracieRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.165 seconds.