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Matt Tracker
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#21 Posted on 2.5.06 0832.57
Reposted on: 2.5.13 0834.33
No Kathy and Travis this week, but the show was a whole lotta fun anyway.

It's a good thing I love me some Spirit Squad because last night would have been brutal otherwise. I'm relieved for them that they can now wrestle without the sleeves; those outfits don't look comfortable at all to sweat in.

The Lovely Mrs. Tracker was distracted by Conway's wedgie for the first half of the match. We both commented that Trish can't wear her sling in front because her chest is too big.

I think this show worked very well as a set-up episode. Eugene/Striker continues. Umaga is the new RikishiVader. Triple H is turning without (so far) making a distinct face gesture. Cena doesn't have to do anything more than enter, take a beating, and FU somebody. Haas and Shelton are gonna have words. Joey foreshadows the ECW return. Foley is determined to get Edge over. Masters is determined but befuddled. And Vince is cruising for a karmic smite. I am intrigued by it all.
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#22 Posted on 2.5.06 0918.43
Reposted on: 2.5.13 0920.49
    Originally posted by geemoney
    Foley's promo was pretty good, but Joey gave away the punchline of the interview.

Best Joey moment of the night for me.

From a pure delivery standpoint, who's "professional wrestling" speech was better: Joey's or Jim Cornette's (from '97)? You almost always have to give the delivery edge to Cornette, but Styles showed he has a really good presence when doing the promo. Also, the ECW revival will be a *bit* more successful than Cornette's NWA "revival."
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#23 Posted on 2.5.06 0930.36
Reposted on: 2.5.13 0931.22
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    Somebody explain to me how 2 bitter enemies who have waged a bloody feud for the last 10 years (according to the WWE) are going to put that aside to be all buddy-buddy again. And that's not even getting into how a 40 year-old born again Christian and the guy married to the boss's daughter are supposed to be anti-authority rebels. But, hey, "OMG HE SAID SUCK-IT!!! LOLOLOL TEH AWESOME!!!", right?


Well, it's professional wrestling, so two guys having a long-standing feud and then reuniting after so many years is just one of those things that fans don't tend to question too much.

And to be fair, we don't know where they're going with Michaels' character leading up to the dX reunion (if there is one). It seems they've been playing up that Vince is in part winning the war despite losing the battle at Wrestlemania, since he's in part been successful in getting Shawn to act like old "cocky a-hole" Shawn than "born again" Shawn.

And as far as HHH is concerned...remember, in storyline terms, he's not married to Stephanie. We all know otherwise, but I don't think that'll prevent most fans from suspending disbelief and buying him as a rebellious character again. Sort of like how fans were able to accept that a guy (Austin) physically attacks the CEO of the company he works for every week and can't stand his guts, even though we knew that (at the time) they got along pretty well. Know what I mean?

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 2.5.06 1038)
Matt Tracker
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#24 Posted on 2.5.06 0931.31
Reposted on: 2.5.13 0931.32
    Originally posted by Mr Shh
    Best Joey moment of the night for me.

    From a pure delivery standpoint, who's "professional wrestling" speech was better: Joey's or Jim Cornette's (from '97)?


The delivery was fine, but the meat of the matter was crap. Unless the WWE is going to offer a highly sanitized version of ECW, then we can expect the exact same kind of bathroom humor Joey protested against. Al Snow's gimmick alone kills that argument. ECW was only about "wrestling" a third of the time. Everything else was stunts, weapons, catfights, blood, and bad language. It was fun, but let's not fool ourselves about ECW's allure. If they take that away, the impending match-ups may as well all feature Justin Credible.
Destrucity
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#25 Posted on 2.5.06 0937.25
Reposted on: 2.5.13 0939.13
    Originally posted by jwrestle
    THE POWER IS BACK!
Actually, watch the opener again -- I do believe the power is once again gone.

Count me in with the Styles-was-super-awesome crowd. I haven't seen anything that edgy in a long time. It really did harken back to the good ol' days of the late '90s. But yes, the odd thing about Styles' shot at the fans at the end -- which made one think it was supposed to be Styles as heel and Lawler as babyface the whole time -- is that even if you know nothing about what goes on backstage, even from a complete mark perspective, Lawler was acting like a total asshole heel (which I really liked, actually, until I realized he was supposed to be the babyface) and Styles was doing absolutely nothing wrong. That crowd wasn't cheering Styles to be smart. They were cheering Styles because he was acting like the good guy.

    Originally posted by Mr Heel II
    WAS the crowd cheering Joey? It sounded like dead silence during a lot of it from what I could tell.
I did notice the crowd was silent throughout much of Styles' promo -- which is the best reaction you can hope to get these days. If the fans don't like what you're saying, they'll disrespectfully yell over your speech or, worse, "What?" through it. Silence means they don't want to miss any of it. Eddie Guerrero used to get total silence during his promos all the time.

Meanwhile, I fast forwarded Foley. I love Foley and always will, but I've had enough of oh-my-God-it's-Mick-Foley-I-can't-believe-it when he shows up every two months and just talks talks talks talks talks and each time it's supposed to be like you haven't seen him in five years and this is the most shocking, thrilling thing ever to happen. Much like his beloved Democratic Party, from this point forward, Foley will get nothing from me until he starts actually doing something.

    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    Somebody explain to me how 2 bitter enemies who have waged a bloody feud for the last 10 years (according to the WWE) are going to put that aside to be all buddy-buddy again.
You've watched professional wrestling before, right?

    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    The delivery was fine, but the meat of the matter was crap. Unless the WWE is going to offer a highly sanitized version of ECW, then we can expect the exact same kind of bathroom humor Joey protested against. Al Snow's gimmick alone kills that argument. ECW was only about "wrestling" a third of the time. Everything else was stunts, weapons, catfights, blood, and bad language. It was fun, but let's not fool ourselves about ECW's allure.
This is so true. Year after year, I am continually perplexed by the revisionist history that states that ECW was nothing but two guys in black trunks grappling on the mat and shaking hands afterwards, plus the occasional bloodbath. ECW nearly approached the early-'90s WCW and mid-'90s WWF in sheer gimmick stupidity. I, too, am not saying that was necessarily a bad thing, but for God's sake, is an Amish guy any better than a wrestling plumber, no matter how many chickens he's accused of having sex with? Styles bashes male cheerleaders? Paul Heyman would absolutely have done male cheerleaders (perhaps in more than one sense!) and, in fact, has done them with gusto in OVW, as is my understanding. (I know, they handed him the gimmick, but he's run with it.)

(edited by Destrucity on 2.5.06 0748)
Tenken347
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#26 Posted on 2.5.06 0954.48
Reposted on: 2.5.13 0956.53
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by Mr Shh
      Best Joey moment of the night for me.

      From a pure delivery standpoint, who's "professional wrestling" speech was better: Joey's or Jim Cornette's (from '97)?


    The delivery was fine, but the meat of the matter was crap. Unless the WWE is going to offer a highly sanitized version of ECW, then we can expect the exact same kind of bathroom humor Joey protested against. Al Snow's gimmick alone kills that argument. ECW was only about "wrestling" a third of the time. Everything else was stunts, weapons, catfights, blood, and bad language. It was fun, but let's not fool ourselves about ECW's allure. If they take that away, the impending match-ups may as well all feature Justin Credible.


Actually, I think that Joey's point was just that the wrestling (by which I think he means any physical contest in the ring) should be the focal point of the show. In the WWE, it's not, it's the side dish. That's why he was complaining about ignoring the matches to talk about the stories. Joey's point isn't that they shouldn't have stories, it's that the wrestling should come first. In ECW, even with their crazy stories it really always did come down to two guys in the ring.
flairforthegold13
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#27 Posted on 2.5.06 1004.08
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1004.21
Interesting show.

It's interesting because we all know that there's a lot of big stuff brewing (ECW, DX, various changes to the title and main event scenes) that they haven't pulled the trigger on yet. So, I spent the entire night waiting for something big to happen, frustrated at the normal angles and matches. Finally, something big happened with the Joey stuff.

Good promo. Like everyone, I thought him ripping on the fans wasn't the right way to go, but he ripped on them in a valid way, 'Why do you people cheer for dumb stuff?' I don't think it'll make a difference and it's not like anyone is going to boo the ECW re-launch when it happens, so whatever. I think they do that because they don't want to seem like they're insulting all the casual fans that actually love the 'dumb' stuff. Fifteen-year-old John Doe might think that Kane hearing voices and Vince playing God is the most awesome thing ever, so you really don't need to be calling him a moron for liking so. On another point, I think sometimes we assume that WWE creative is oblivious to the criticism we launch at them. Of course, that's ridiculous. Joey's promo was a great example of that. He brought up valid points that really made the E look incompetent (especially in regards to the broadcasting.) Props to them for allowing it. Also, got to say that Human Muppet Todd Grisham didn't tank the last segment, so congrats to him.

The DX stuff is going to over huge. I know people point out that how do you explain away the blood hatred between H and HBK. Well, H comes out, says 'you were my best friend, you're my greatest opponent, together we're unstoppable. McMahon is screwing us let's do what we do best.' They shake hands and we're out of it in 5 minutes. I think people get caught up in the soap opera back-stories in those things; we don't need some labyrinthine plot to get them back on the same side. In wrestling, when guys turn face we kind of just have to get that they're good people now and probably apologized to all the guys they screwed over. All the shades of gray stuff really complicated face turns. And besides, guys feud all the time, gain mutual respect back and become friends or at least cool with each other.

The shots of Vince chilling with Candice seemed pointless, but my hunch is that they're going for a 'Vince is fiddling while his company burns' deal. The Dx reunion and the ECW revival are going on right under his noise and he's to busy playing God to see it. Either that, or he just wanted to make out with Candice on camera again.

Other thoughts:
-Hope this leads to a Conway v. Shawn match, with some time given.
-All the divas stuff was cute. They should use Maria more.
-I like the Spirit Squad but it's a bit early to build an entire show around them. I do like the fact that Vince is friends with male cheerleaders. It just seems funny that the most evil heel on the planet hangs out with male cheerleaders.
-Odd to see all the Bischoff mentions. Maybe it means something, or maybe they just wanted to make fun of him on camera. Who knows?
-'Greatest hardcore match in history?' Go away, Foley. Mick ceased to be interesting years ago and his promos are getting more and more self-indulgent. I enjoy the matches but the fact that he always loses ultimately makes them pointless. And it's not like he's Hulk Hogan giving someone the rub, y'know.
-Seems like Cena going on a diverging path from ONS, so maybe the rumors ARE true about Rob and JBL...we'll see.
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#28 Posted on 2.5.06 1020.54
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1021.04
Foley has totally wore out his welcome with me. Every other PPV he is there talking about some magical career moment. Where's the remote controlled robots when you need them?
Spaceman Spiff
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#29 Posted on 2.5.06 1023.34
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1023.59

    Well, it's professional wrestling, so two guys having a long-standing feud and then reuniting after so many years is just one of those things that fans don't tend to question too much.

It's not too much to ask for a logical explanation, though. "United against a common enemy", for example. It'll be logically ridiculous to just see them buddying up without some kind of compelling impetus.


    And as far as HHH is concerned...remember, in storyline terms, he's not married to Stephanie. We all know otherwise, but I don't think that'll prevent most fans from suspending disbelief and buying him as a rebellious character again.

What will he be rebelling against? He's a 10-time champ who's ME'ed numerous Wrestlemania's. He's been at the forefront of the company for how many years now? It worked for Austin because he hadn't yet become a megastar, and it was the boss looking to hold him down. HHH is going rebel againist "fight The Man"? He *IS* "The Man".

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 2.5.06 1305)
Matches
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#30 Posted on 2.5.06 1050.37
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1050.38
Lawler was totally setting up some sort of Vince reaction to HHH and Shawn's lackluster/defiant refereeing during the broadcast. Even though HHH and Shawn went about their business in different ways, and with different motives (HHH to hurt Cena, Michaels to help him), I think if they do a good job of having Vince slowly putting the screws to both of them it will be a good way to get them back together.

Even though I don't really want to see it, if it's going to go that way, I think that's the way to do it. Slow, uneasy, etc. The wrong way to do it: Since Vince is angry at two people at the same time, he teams them up in a tag match next week against the Spirit Squad, they desparately try to milk "How will HHH and Shawn co-exist?" throughout the show, they overcome the odds by beating the SS, and the two are buddies in a reformed DX by 11:05.

They have something interesting here. I hope they don't blow it.

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#31 Posted on 2.5.06 1055.11
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1055.22
To those who are upset that Joey bashed the fans -

You do realize he wasn't bashing WRESTLING fans in general, right? He was bashing WWE fans. The fans who ate up the crotch chops and gang wars and Chyna and Road Dogg's singalong and all that sucked about wrestling in the late 90s while his beloved ECW couldn't draw 100 people in a gym in Missouri.

Debate which is better all you want, but when you're trying to bring back a brand like ECW, it's an important distinction to make. This being a WWE show, let's congratulate them for making it at all.

Speaking of promos, between Foley's promo and Joey's, I have to come to one of two conclusions here:

1. Joey and Mick wrote their own promos
2. Whoever writes the promos knows that the normal promos are repetitive garbage and doesn't care.
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#32 Posted on 2.5.06 1101.07
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1102.47
Okay, so I have to be the first guy to mention "Special Delivery" Rory Fox, star of MTV's wrestling special way long ago? I'm way more intrigued by Umaga's "jobber" opponents than by Not-Jamal himself. First Colt Cabana and now Rory Fox...who's next, CM Punk?

And I was surprised that Todd Grisham did a decent job calling the main event.

Overall, this was the best U.S. Raw in a while, all due to the Spirit Squad and the veiled hints at bigger things to come in the summer (ECW, DX, Vince-Candice marriage).
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#33 Posted on 2.5.06 1148.28
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1148.56
I damn well better see some JOEY WAS RIGHT signs next week.

Who did Rob Conway piss off to get stuck in the Stasiak role? Although dumb as the whole angle is, the "May 19" ref shirt was funny. Please, please, please don't let this lead to Kane being suddenly repackaged as Jacob Goodnight once the fatal date rolls around, though.

The midcard's looking strong lately, with Haas, Benjamin, RVD, a rapidly improving Masters, and Carlito to hold it up. Now if they can just get a decent face team to challenge the Spirit Squad.

As for the DX reunion, for me it'll hinge on whether there are any other members of the stable. If they handle it right, it could be a way to get some upcoming stars over, the way Evolution helped do for Orton and Batista. On the other hand, if it's just the Hunter and Shawn Show -- or, wrestling gods forbid, it leads to the return of Waltman, Hall, and Nash -- I'll mark out to the music once and then gag through the rest.

Excalibur05
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#34 Posted on 2.5.06 1155.39
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1155.42
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    It's not too much to ask for a logical explanation, though. "United against a common enemy", for example. It'll be logically ridiculous to just see them buddying up without some kind of compelling impetus.


They have a common enemy though. Vince McMahon. Vince is trying to screw with Shawn and he's trying to use Hunter as his errand boy, so it makes sense for them to ally with each other for their own benefits at least.

On another note, kudos to Carlito for yelling, "Fight back...or something!" in support to Rob Van Dam.

As for Joey's promo, let me encapsulate my thoughts in this excerpt from this week's RAW Satire:

Styles: Vince, it seems like you really lost your way here. Wrestling isnít supposed to be about labia humor and telling stories, itís supposed to be about guys punching each other in the balls with glass and lesbians fighting over Tommy Dreamer! Itís supposed to be about world champions, not like JBL and John Cena, but like Justin Credible and Steve Corino! Itís about twenty minute long entrances and forty people cutting promos in two minutes. Itís about bingo halls and not paying your workers! Itís about Da Baldies going three on three with an Amish Guy, his lothario man friend and Tazzí cousin! Itís about Mass Transit and jumping off of high things! Itís about letting RVD and Rhino cut fourteen minute long promos where they do nothing but swear. Itís about Terry Funk retiring at every house show and guys too fat to make it here coming in and bleeding on things! Itís not about girls with fake tits having matches, itís about girls with fake tits having matches with referees! More importantly than all that, wrestling isnít about untalented stiffs having matches and boring the crowds! Itís about untalented stiffs hitting each other with things and getting the crowd to chant obscenities! THATíS Pro-wrestling! And if you canít understand that, well, God help you.

Jesus: EC FíN W!
kentish
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#35 Posted on 2.5.06 1239.49
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1240.02
I loved Joey's promo, it pretty much summed up the frustrations I have had with the WWE the last few years. Although I still have my doubts how well this ECW experiment will go. If they just fund them, and let Paul handle creative, then fine. But Vince will never, ever let that happen I am afraid.
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#36 Posted on 2.5.06 1405.12
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1406.08
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    It's not too much to ask for a logical explanation, though. "United against a common enemy", for example. It'll be logically ridiculous to just see them buddying up without some kind of compelling impetus.


You're jumping the gun in your criticism here, as they haven't even "buddied up" yet, so we can't say there was no logical explanation or compelling impetus behind a reunion, if it indeed happens.

(edited by hayden on 2.5.06 1406)
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#37 Posted on 2.5.06 1421.52
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1421.56
    Originally posted by Torchslasher
    Okay, so I have to be the first guy to mention "Special Delivery" Rory Fox, star of MTV's wrestling special way long ago? I'm way more intrigued by Umaga's "jobber" opponents than by Not-Jamal himself.

THAT'S who that was! Good pick-up, that was driving me absolutely nuts.

Edit: Just realized it was actually "Rapid Delivery." Newspaper delivery boy gimmick. On an semi-related note, watching Les Thatcher give him that gimmick on the special was painful.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 2.5.06 1528)
Spaceman Spiff
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#38 Posted on 2.5.06 1450.40
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1451.41
    Originally posted by hayden
      Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
      It's not too much to ask for a logical explanation, though. "United against a common enemy", for example. It'll be logically ridiculous to just see them buddying up without some kind of compelling impetus.


    You're jumping the gun in your criticism here, as they haven't even "buddied up" yet, so we can't say there was no logical explanation or compelling impetus behind a reunion, if it indeed happens.

    (edited by hayden on 2.5.06 1406)

WWE Creative's reputation precedes itself.
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#39 Posted on 2.5.06 1459.09
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1459.13
    Originally posted by SpacemanSpiff
    But, hey, "OMG HE SAID SUCK-IT!!! LOLOLOL TEH AWESOME!!!", right?


Not entirely. I mean, as silly as it is, this DX thing completely snuck up on them by little doing of their own, all out of Michaels doing a crotch chop at Wrestlemania and then HHH following with one later since he was playing half-face and saw what a big reaction the spot got earlier. Next thing you know, the crowd wants DX. Like they want few things WWE tries to give them.

If this was just some hairbrained 'back to the well' idea WWE came up with, I'd be rolling my eyes too. But because it's been so organic and out of nowhere, it's pretty intriguing. I mean, they really, really want to see DX, for whatever reason. Subtly teasing DX is going to make them want it more. And then hopefully they'll provide a good payoff. They wish they could manufacture this much interest in the angles they're actually planning.


    Originally posted by Destrucity
    Much like his beloved Democratic Party, from this point forward, Foley will get nothing from me until he starts actually doing something.


Yeah really. Like ... do a great promo about the great match he had, to set up what will probably be another great match (probably at the ECW show and not next week). What's keeping him?


    Paul Heyman would absolutely have done male cheerleaders (perhaps in more than one sense!)


Paul Heyman is married and has a child.


I would've loved this show with or without Styles' promo -- which was a great delivery/performance regardless of content. But for the first time in a good while, there are some genuinely entertaining acts on Raw being used well. Spirit Squad. Mickie James. Edge & Lita are fantastic and being kept prominent and strong. Cena continues to be John Cena and that's all he needs to do to get these amazing reactions. Triple H is interesting for the first time since the build to his breakup with Batista.

Sure, May 19th and Umaga are shitty as all shitout, but at least the company has, astoundingly, laid a groundwork of big concepts and know where they're going (ECW and a Triple H babyface turn). Even if you're not sold on either idea, it's still a lot better than the alternative of just winging it with crappy stuff.
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#40 Posted on 2.5.06 1533.42
Reposted on: 2.5.13 1534.44
    Originally posted by The 5th Horseman
    I hated the Spirit Squad when they first started the gimmick, but while I'm still not thrilled with the gimmick, the wrestlers are entertaining in the roles so far.


If they're good in their roles isn't the gimmick good?

I love the Squad. There are somethings I would do differently with them but so-far-so-good in my mind.

Any "good" gimmick or angle can be made to suck. Any "bad" gimmick can be made to rule! Do you remember how people complained about the way Angle was being brought into the WWF? JR even addressed it in his column at the time.
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