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25.10.07 2339
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - The vain heel count
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Jackson
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#1 Posted on 17.3.06 0107.46
Reposted on: 17.3.13 0108.11
How many of the "I'm to hot for all of you" guys do we have now anyway?

Chris Masters
Rob Conway
Doug Basham
Joey Mercury
Johnny Nitro
Rene Dupree
Sylvan

I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody. If they hadn't dumped the Heart Throbs they would be up there too. I could throw in Randy and Carito but they aren't quite as one-dimensional as these guys. It's okay for the heel to be vain but it shouldn't be your ENTIRE gimmick.

I guess this is all the writers can come up with for Gregory Helms also. This is a guy who got over running around in a cape for years.

I understand that the vain heel is a wrestling staple but there are too many guys doing it and none of them are coming close to doing it on a Rick Rude level that's for sure.

Maybe this is why a guy like Finley is so refreshing.





(edited by Jackson on 17.3.06 0208)
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Freeway
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#2 Posted on 17.3.06 0115.13
Reposted on: 17.3.13 0117.14
    Originally posted by Jackson

    Chris Masters
    Rob Conway
    Doug Basham
    Joey Mercury
    Johnny Nitro
    Rene Dupree
    Sylvan



-Masters is really, really strong.
-MNM are a tag team, and their entire gimmick is that they're elitist Hollywood assholes, complete with fur coats, fur boots, and paparazzi during their entrance.
-Conway, Dupree, Sylvan & Basham are not on TV that much, if at all.

But I do get your point: Finlay iz awesome.
Jackson
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#3 Posted on 17.3.06 0243.26
Reposted on: 17.3.13 0243.31
    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Conway, Dupree, Sylvan & Basham are not on TV that much, if at all.<


Well those guys are especially my point. How are any of them supposed to get over doing basically the same gimmick.


Oh and ignore or delete that SNME tag. I didn't mean to put it there.
oldschoolhero
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#4 Posted on 17.3.06 0245.33
Reposted on: 17.3.13 0246.16
Dupree and Basham aren't on TV at ALL at the moment. Conway and Sylvan, well, you have a point, but I don't think it's anywhere near the epidemic of vain heels that you fear.
chill
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#5 Posted on 17.3.06 0905.48
Reposted on: 17.3.13 0906.04
I didn't know MNM were supposed to be elitist Hollywood heels. All we've seen so far is their entrance. But I'd love to see some vignettes shot in Hollywood to give them some new layers to their characters.
Destrucity
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#6 Posted on 17.3.06 1005.22
Reposted on: 17.3.13 1005.47
I think there are so many vain heels because in this day and age, it's one of the only heel gimmicks that might not eventually turn you face. Finlay may be refreshing, but he's a craggy Irishman who loves to fight and hits people with a stick -- c'mon, how long is he really going to stay a heel? Like seriously.
oldschoolhero
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#7 Posted on 17.3.06 1041.14
Reposted on: 17.3.13 1042.40
Huh, I'd have said it was the reverse. Vain, arrogant heels, if they're good enough at what they do, usually gain a pretty big following. It's a case of them saying "I am too awesome!", and after awhile the fans going "hey, yeah....he IS too awesome!". By contrast, I can't see a lot about Finlay's persona that'll have people sponaneously cheering him any time soon.
canis582
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#8 Posted on 17.3.06 1041.47
Reposted on: 17.3.13 1043.08
We need more women beating heels, like the Duds used to do.
Destrucity
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#9 Posted on 17.3.06 1115.17
Reposted on: 17.3.13 1116.35
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Huh, I'd have said it was the reverse. Vain, arrogant heels, if they're good enough at what they do, usually gain a pretty big following. It's a case of them saying "I am too awesome!", and after awhile the fans going "hey, yeah....he IS too awesome!". By contrast, I can't see a lot about Finlay's persona that'll have people sponaneously cheering him any time soon.
I sorta think of Finlay as a face already. I hear "My name is Finlay, and I love to fight!" over the PA and I expect to hear it followed by cheering. Finlay's gimmick is in the same family as Chris Benoit's when he's a heel, and that never lasts long. They're ass kickers, and people like ass kickers.

Meanwhile, I think you have to do the vanity thing really well to parlay it into a groundswell of fan support and a successful face turn. Shawn Michaels and The Rock come to mind -- but they're Shawn Michaels and The Rock, you know what I mean? Then consider Randy Orton, who was doing a halfway-decent-but-not-incredible vain heel and got turned face with disastrous results.
Reverend J Shaft
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#10 Posted on 17.3.06 1156.52
Reposted on: 17.3.13 1158.03
I think it’s interesting nowadays that wrestlers seemed to get turned heel or face based more on what the fans think of them OUTSIDE of storylines rather than anything they do within the context of a storyline. With the notion of kayfabe practically non-existent among the fans, it doesn’t seem to matter if a heel acts cocky and arrogant or mean and emotionless. It seems like fans care more about how a wrestlers portrays his character rather than what his character does to other wrestlers. In addition, the happenings off-screen seem to influence fan support as well.

Think about it. When a heel attacked Hogan back in the day, would anyone care if it was a mean brute like Bad News Brown or a cocky heel like Rick Rude? No. They attacked Hogan. They’re evil. If those events were played for today’s fans, half the crowd would be cheering. Not because they’re arrogant heels or badass heels, but because they play their characters so well. While I love Andre the Giant, would we be just as excited to see their Wrestlemania III in today’s environment? Hell no. Half the IWC would be lamenting the implosion of workrate. And Bobby Heenan would be a face.

Part of me thinks that’s why Triple H will always be able to remain heel where others may not. Everyone knows he’s married to the boss’s daughter and many of those believe that he gets into all of these main events for that reason. If Triple H had turned face and helped Cena beat up Edge before he lost the title back to Cena, would we all be rooting for Triple H to get a title shot? I would wager there would be less support than if this scenario took place in the late 80’s/early 90’s. In that time period, the crowd would be going batsh!t for Triple H. If he kept the arrogant cocky persona, I think those fans would be confused.

Perhaps I rambled there, but the discussion got me thinking…. Just my opinion.
Whattaburger
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#11 Posted on 17.3.06 1504.34
Reposted on: 17.3.13 1505.47
So how do you make credible heels and faces then if the fans keep flipping their support? They are so incredibly finicky. They cheer someone like Cena, Orton, or Christian into becoming a face, and then they complain that they've lost the edge they had when they were a heel.

I think the fans--IWC or whatever you want to call them--give their support based on workrate (or whatever they understand it to be) and how awesome of a heel the wrestler is. Which ends up ruining storylines. How can a heel wrestler put psychology into the match when he has to worry about whether or not his actions will spark cheering? Not to mention that it probably doesn't look to great on TV to see the bad guy getting pops for being a jerkoff.

You're right, if it were today, Bobby Heenan would have been the biggest face in the company and people would have been going crazy for Andre to rip Hogan's arms off...and that's incredibly sad and/or stupid.

I think it'd be interesting to just put Heels vs Heels and Faces vs Faces. Maybe that'd weed out the people who the fans really hate and the ones they really love.

(edited by Whattaburger on 17.3.06 1307)
Jackson
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#12 Posted on 17.3.06 1545.26
Reposted on: 17.3.13 1545.44
I want to point out that I am talking about them being vain as in they are stressing their looks here rather just being cocky and putting over that they are good wrestlers.

Oliver
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#13 Posted on 18.3.06 1104.49
Reposted on: 18.3.13 1106.38
    Originally posted by chill
    I didn't know MNM were supposed to be elitist Hollywood heels. All we've seen so far is their entrance. But I'd love to see some vignettes shot in Hollywood to give them some new layers to their characters.
When they debuted, Melina dropped celebs' first names (like Ashton, Kirsten, Paris, Jessica, Demi, etc.) as though they were close friends. The entire idea, I would imagine, would be for everyone watching to be jealous of them for being sexy and having these high ranked Hollywood starlets as friends.

Of course, last names are never implied or used, for copywrite and trademark sake or whatever.
Jackson
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#14 Posted on 19.3.06 0335.06
Reposted on: 19.3.13 0335.30
    Originally posted by Oliver
      Originally posted by chill
      I didn't know MNM were supposed to be elitist Hollywood heels. All we've seen so far is their entrance. But I'd love to see some vignettes shot in Hollywood to give them some new layers to their characters.
    When they debuted, Melina dropped celebs' first names (like Ashton, Kirsten, Paris, Jessica, Demi, etc.) as though they were close friends. The entire idea, I would imagine, would be for everyone watching to be jealous of them for being sexy and having these high ranked Hollywood starlets as friends.

    Of course, last names are never implied or used, for copywrite and trademark sake or whatever.



I swear this is my last post in this thread! I'll even admit to drunk posting but don't delete it benevolent dictator. Let this ramble on.

The Heart Throbs did some damn funny promos in OVW. They showed some personalty and God forbid they got a little raunchy on fucking Byte This and got canned.

The direction seems to be: flex on ramp,prance out to the ring, pose and get the hell out in under 5 minutes. They are hung out to die. Yet Vince's court jester humiliation on the Spirit Squad is given major air time.

It's not like I even hate this type of gimmick. Try to wax nostalgic from Gorgeous George's repulsion to his opponent, Rude's ring promos, Orndorff's mirror, and Martel's Arrogance. Even on the low end, Marc Mero and Flexy Lexy look talented in comparison.

It just blows my mind that Cornette, Heyman, and even Russo's talents are being wasted.

That reminds me and I swear to Lemmy that this isn't spam and I won't even link it but check out the Russo interview on Wrestlecrap.

I know I have challenged CRZ's bias against WCW and TNA but when something so simple is done so awful just because they can it's sad for an entertainment venue that I appreciate. I am almost 40 despite the immaturity some of might have read from me here but I remember when I was called a stupid redneck for my Hot Rod shirt. We joke about the McMahon ego and teh backstage powers but when that joke makes the industry a joke again we will wish that that something had made the WWE get off their kissed ass. They are asleep at the wheel and it seems that it takes death to even make them blink. Even then they still have to show that nothing is really off limits to their whimsical string pulling with low rider "tributes" and drug testing piss throwing.

Thanks, I feel better now. Your usually scheduled sarcastic comments will return soon. My hangover today should be good for my relapse.
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