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The 7 - Baseball - Cubskis
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Eddie Famous
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#1 Posted on 11.12.01 2158.14
Reposted on: 11.12.08 2158.18
Well that was an interesting trade. At least they get rid of Heredia. Gonzalez won't nearly be as clutch as Gutierrez, but you add by subtracting by dumping Felix.

Now they're going after Knoblauch...to play second base! Aiee!
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#2 Posted on 12.12.01 1227.03
Reposted on: 12.12.08 1230.40
Oh man, Eddie, Alex Gonzalez is the biggest outmaker in baseball. He will not help, I assure you.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
Eddie Famous
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#3 Posted on 12.12.01 1643.28
Reposted on: 12.12.08 1730.30
But Felix was the biggest runmaker on the team! I think it's about even.



***The train of love's deceiving...if she ain't gone she's leaving***
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#4 Posted on 12.12.01 1743.44
Reposted on: 12.12.08 2059.02
Point taken, but Alex will play everyday and you are going to see a lot of 0 fer fours for AGon, my brother.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
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#5 Posted on 13.12.01 1017.28
Reposted on: 13.12.08 1337.04


Alex Gonzalez was hitting second most of the time for Toronto, something he's not suited to do. He's yet to fully mature as a hitter, but maybe a new hitting coach can do for him what it did for Sammy Sosa, although not to that degree, of course.

Gonzalez, if he cuts down on the strikeouts, has .280-20-90 potential yearly. He's got a good glove, and the idea that Ricky Gutierrez has already peaked is also a factor. They also dumped a terrible pitcher to get a new shortstop, so the trade is less "interesting" than it could be a steal for Chicago.



Scott Christ
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pieman
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#6 Posted on 13.12.01 1246.37
Reposted on: 13.12.08 1337.35
I am sticking with earlier assessment of Alex Gonzalez. He's a stiff. Career BA of .245, OBP of .304 and slugging of .386. That's in 8 seasons!! He will be 29 in April, if he was peaking, it was last year hitting a robust .253, with OBP of .303 and SLG of .388 (exactly his 8 year averages). I will grant you that he is an above average defensive SS, but you will not see anything here except mediocrity. If you don't believe me, check it for yourself:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gonzaal01.shtml





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Abmulabmu
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#7 Posted on 13.12.01 1426.49
Reposted on: 13.12.08 1447.18
Check this for yourself:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gonzalu01.shtml

That's Luis Gonzalez, who was not so far removed from Alex Gonzalez's statistics at the same stage in his career. Oh me oh my. PS Sammy Sosa PPS Bret Boone





Helen Keller was largely useless, and look how we remember her.
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#8 Posted on 14.12.01 0959.03
Reposted on: 14.12.08 1440.58
Boy, if you think Alex Gonzalez is going to turn into Luis Gonzalez, you got some good dope.

No sir, I don't seem the resemblance other than last name. Luis' OBP and SLG are so much higher in his early years than Alex has ever been.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
Abmulabmu
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#9 Posted on 14.12.01 1040.22
Reposted on: 14.12.08 1441.01
Uh hello retard. My name is Luis Gonzalez and I used to suck but now I rule. My name is Sammy Sosa and I used to suck but now I rule. My name is Bret Boone and I used to suck but now I rule. Anyway, I was unaware there was an OBP cutoff point for improvement, where if, say, by a certain age you didn't hit .340, you'd never get better. I guess that explains why I thought, maybe, Luis Gonzalez as an example of a player who dramatically improved would show that Alex Gonzalez could improve HIS stats. NO YOU'RE KIDDING. No I'm kidding because you're wrong.





Helen Keller was largely useless, and look how we remember her.
Guru Zim
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#10 Posted on 14.12.01 1408.43
Reposted on: 14.12.08 1441.06

Hey play nice. This is still the 'A' list (sorta)



I love it when a plan comes together
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#11 Posted on 14.12.01 1511.43
Reposted on: 14.12.08 1621.29
As Aaron said, play nice. All I am saying is that you are citing 3 players that took a while to develop. I will grant you that three you mention improved dramatically, but every one that improves dramatically, there are 100 that just fade away or worse yet, stay the same and play on your favorite team.

And by the way, I refuse to get sucked into name calling. I do, however, know a lot of nice retards.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.

(edited by pieman on 14.12.01 1312)
Abmulabmu
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#12 Posted on 14.12.01 1640.34
Reposted on: 14.12.08 1642.04
Well, I'M saying that dropping his stats and saying "see for yourself, mediocrity" means nothing because even IF Alex never improves, he's STILL better than Guitterez, so whoopity doo. BUT he's 29 with a lot of raw talent JUST like Sammy Sosa once was, and is he going to hit 66 home runs every year, no. But he'll either be a slightly above average shortstop or an All-Star. How are you supposed to know which players will improve? You don't. The Cubs aren't even taking a risk here, either he gets great or he stays okay.





Helen Keller was largely useless, and look how we remember her.
Eddie Famous
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#13 Posted on 14.12.01 1830.01
Reposted on: 14.12.08 1830.13

Hee hee the Jays didn't even keep Heredia for a week. The Dodgers just got a lot worse.



***The train of love's deceiving...if she ain't gone she's leaving***

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#14 Posted on 14.12.01 1908.01
Reposted on: 14.12.08 2012.52

I can give you a great example of a guy who never panned out... Ruben Rivera.

Rivera was the Yankee prospect that we "stole" away in some sort of Japanese pitcher fiasco... I can't remember the guy, the short story is he didn't really work out for the Yankees...

Rivera was touted as a 5 tool guy - Great speed, good arm strength, good defense... and some day he would hit.

We lost Steve Finley because we bet on this guy. Last season before Spring trainig we finally got rid of him.

Will Ruben ever pan out? Who knows. If he does, people might think we made a mistake getting rid of him... but look at his stats for 1999 and 2000...





Year:Games PlayedHR SO
199914723143
200013517137
20011171083


My conlcusion: Some guys just don't pan out.



I love it when a plan comes together


(edited by Guru Zim on 14.12.01 1710)
SC
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#15 Posted on 15.12.01 1547.59
Reposted on: 15.12.08 1653.41


With position relativity, Alex Gonzalez is better than Ruben Rivera.

Ricky Ledee and Juan Encarnacion fall into the "never panned out" mold, and if Gabe Kapler can't start hitting over an entire season, he'll be there soon too.

But BUT I think Gonzalez is going to a favorable situation, playing for a should-be contender with a probable emphasis on him changing the way he approaches hitting, like they did with Sosa. I'm not saying he'll be the next Sosa or next A-Rod or next Jeter or whatever, but he's still got some time to improve.

He's been a pretty big flop thus far after the hype he was given being drafted with and compared to Alex Rodriguez, but the Cubbies got him for nothing, and that works.



Scott Christ
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Guru Zim
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#16 Posted on 15.12.01 1949.58
Reposted on: 15.12.08 2028.29

Good point.

I have to admit, for the last few years I've been really National League centric - watching most of my baseball games in Qualcomm stadium rather than on TV, so I don't even get the announcer bias or the clips of other teams if I'm not following Sports Center.

I just remember hearing everyone here in SD from the front office to the talk radio guys saying that Rivera was like Sammy - that he would bloom if we gave him time. I think the problem was that Ruben was listening to that also, and really never tried to change ,assuming he would always have another chance.

It's too bad. Maybe if he had earned the position rather than getting by way of Finley not being signed, he would have respected it more. The guy always seemed nice when we ran into him at McGregor's.

//edit: Speaking of Ben Davis, I hear he spent a little TOO much time at McGregor's, if you know what I mean... I don't think he's in the crack habit range of other former Pads, but he may have some partying issues... something that Lou better get under control.

Mind you, I don't know for a fact that Davis was missing starts due to hangovers. I do know that in the outfield seats people muttered about seeing him out partying late the night before on days when he wasn't starting... who knows if it was scheduled or not? In retrospect, maybe Boche wasn't resting him on purpose all of those times... it would make more sense why they traded him if that was the case.





I love it when a plan comes together


(edited by Guru Zim on 15.12.01 1757)
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#17 Posted on 16.12.01 0930.24
Reposted on: 16.12.08 1036.28


All I've heard is he's really, really immature and kind of a prick, so anything about him showing up hungover wouldn't be a surprise.

Piniella has always been said to be good at getting young players to grow up, so it's probably the best fit for Davis, since he's got a veteran manager and a team that doesn't have HUGE pressure on it to win like the NY clubs.



Scott Christ
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thecubsfan
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#18 Posted on 17.12.01 0233.29
Reposted on: 17.12.08 0801.52
The way I like to look at is like this...

- Ricky Guitterez is gone even if they don't get Gonzalez.
- Outside of Ricky, there are/were no good shortstops in the free agent market (which makes it totally weird that Ricky settled quick to play second but I guess he didn't want to be without a contract for Christmas)
- The top shortstop in the orginization is Augie Ojeda. Fun name to say otherwise, he's your utility player who can't and won't hit, anywhere. Starting him is wasting at bats.
- The Cubs are in a transition period from a highly veteran team the last couple years to a young one where they're hoping a lot of players live up to their potetial as they get pushed into the lineup over the next two years (SP Cruz, Zambrano, 2B Hill, 1B Choi, CF Patterson, more that don't quickly come to mind.) The AAA and AA teams are loaded, with some of those guys hitting the major league this year (and late last year.)
- Still, this is an inbetween year between teams (though they probably will challenge for the NL Central because there are no great teams going in) so it's a good time to take a decent chane on someone young. If he works out, he's locked in while the rest grow up around him. If not, he's at least filling a position that a few are really good at and everyone else is okay to sucky.

Even more, this frees up a roster spot. Baylor refused to use Herida at points and McPhail refused to release him so it was some twisted Mexican standoff (that ended costing other players.) Any value that's gotten out of Alex this year will be more than what we got from Herida last.

With any luck, the lineup should work something like this...

2B Delino (maybe sometimes CF Patterson)
3B Mueller
RF Sosa
1B McGriff
LF ALOU I hope
C the Todd Hundley that doesn't blow I hope
CF Michael Tucker (or Delino would move down here)
SS Alex Gonzalez
P

(if no big name LF, move Hundley and Tucker up and stick Brown in LF, although I'm sure they'll sign someone else so Brown can't play. They don't like him much.)

Alex might not be great and only debatable good but he's fine for a #8 NL guy. And with Hundley around, he'll have no contest in the "overpaid for performance" category no matter what he dos.

(edited by thecubsfan on 17.12.01 0035)
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#19 Posted on 17.12.01 0543.13
Reposted on: 17.12.08 1125.00
Valid points, Cubs. My original point was that AGon is not young. He will be 29 in April and that is not what you want to build your team around. He has been virtually the same for 7 years. He has not shown an ounce of improvement. Assuming he's a stopgap, I will buy that. BUt that's a damn expensive stopgap, though.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
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#20 Posted on 17.12.01 1416.03
Reposted on: 17.12.08 1550.38

I'm still trying to figure out what the Padres are going to do about Ray Lankford.

When the trade was made to St. Louis, part of the deal was enough cash to buy out Ray from his contract this year under the buyout clause.

I have to assume that we aren't going to have him here this season either way... so something has to give. If we buy him out I think he becomes a free agent?

I'd like to see Lankford go somewhere that will make the Cards pay for treating him like damaged goods. I'd love to see him stay in San Diego, but we have a glut of Outfielders right now (Klesko, Trammel, Kotsay, Crespo, Henderson, Lankford, Darr, and occasionally Jackson)



I love it when a plan comes together
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