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22.10.07 1917
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Cartoon Violence
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skorpio17
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#1 Posted on 8.2.06 2009.45
Reposted on: 8.2.13 2010.19
The recent violence looks like an excuse to riot. To blame the Danish cartoon depicting Muhammed. Islam doesn't prohibit the pictures of Muhammed not to degrade him, but so he won't be idolized.

The response from Iran is somewhat comedic. They will now print cartoons targeting Jews by making fun of the holocaust. (Quid pro quo would be targeting the Danish, but they'd have less material to work with.) Most other countries would go out of their way to avoid being linked to Nazis. I do want to see what these comics look like once they see print. We can respond by sending Scott Adams after Iran.
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spf
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#2 Posted on 9.2.06 1112.59
Reposted on: 9.2.13 1115.20
When people publish articles talking about how Muslims are demanding the world become one giant Caliphate, and that they will not stop until everyone submits to their religion, I tend to laugh at them and call them cranks.

Then this sort of thing happens, and people who are high-ranking in worldwide Muslim organizations say things like this, and I find myself having trouble arguing against those "cranks":

    Originally posted by Mohamed Ahmed Sherif
    In Brussels, Belgium, Mohamed Ahmed Sherif, chairman of the Libyan-based World Islamic Call Society, said Muslims see the drawings as a direct attack on their values and called the decision to print them in European newspapers a "hate program."

    "Nobody should blame the Muslims if they are unhappy about the images of the Prophet Muhammad," Sherif said. "It's forbidden to create a hate program to show that the prophet is a terrorist while he's not. Don't ask us to try to make people understand that this is not a campaign of hate."

    Nasrallah, a black-turbaned, bearded cleric, demanded an apology for the cartoons and laws to prevent a repetition.

    "There can be no settlement before an apology and there can be no settlement before laws are legislated by the European Parliament and the parliaments of European countries," he said.

    Islamic nations should demand "a law committing the press and the media in the West that proscribes insulting our prophet. If this matter cannot be achieved that means they (West) insist on continuing this," he added.


I'm trying really hard to stay open-minded, and to keep saying "most people don't think this" but when the article (news.yahoo.com) mentions protests of close to 1,000,000 people in the streets, it makes me wonder if there really is any chance of co-existence, or if the worldviews of the Muslim world and the Western/Christian world are just too damn different to survive side by side.
AWArulz
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#3 Posted on 9.2.06 1324.18
Reposted on: 9.2.13 1324.25
    Originally posted by spf
    I'm trying really hard to stay open-minded, and to keep saying "most people don't think this" but when the article (news.yahoo.com) mentions protests of close to 1,000,000 people in the streets, it makes me wonder if there really is any chance of co-existence, or if the worldviews of the Muslim world and the Western/Christian world are just too damn different to survive side by side.



The most vicious wars in history have been about religion. The fact that WW1 and 2, and to a great extent Korea and Vietnam were about power and ideology (somewhat religious) is not germane. The vicious wars historically have been.

The reason we haven't had a good vicious war about religion in a couple hundred years is that Christians have learned that killing others because their God is not your God isn't what their God is hoping for. Most Christians anyway. Because it was always the Christians who were the exclusionists. Jesus said "No man comes to the Father except by me" and all that. And of course Catholics thought that meant by "me" and through Rome, while the Lutherans thought it meant "me" and through any where BUT Rome - and so on. And God (some God, anyway, not MINE) help you if you weren't some sort of Christian - like a Jew or something.

But we grew up. We became civilized. We learned to read and figured out that most versions of Christianity are similar and God doesn't want us killing others just because they don't sing three songs before offering. And if the other guys stayed alive, you MIGHT be able to convert them, which seems to be Jesus' command. Plus all that love stuff.

I guess we Christians mellowed.

But Muslims have not. Illiteracy is very high. Among women in most countries where Sharia is practiced female illiteracy is greater than 60% and in some places (for example this paper http://www.hashmitrust.com/htm/abtus.htm#anjani_m quotes a place called Haryana in India where female muslims have a 98% illiteracy rate. I don't know how many are women who are Muslims there, but the Population of Haryana is 5.5 million.

Many Muslim boys study nothing except the Q'uran during their formative years and are ill-prepared to enter the workforce. And so they enter a life of working for a "master" a person they will do whatever is said for them to do - work at various tasks, - anything. And the focus of life is Sharia - the Prayers, the Hadj, the Alms, purification, and of course the One God.

It sounds like Middle age Christians under the thumb of the Catholic Church, doesn't it?

Oh, of course, if you're lucky you can escape to Khartoum or Terhan or Tripoli or Cairo and Bagdad - but most are stuck.

I have no idea how it all ends. I worry about it way too much, that much I know.
oldschoolhero
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#4 Posted on 9.2.06 1401.36
Reposted on: 9.2.13 1401.40
You make some very good points, AWA. Unfortunately Islam in its purest form remains confined to developing countries, as you state. Islam IS a religion that can integrate with the rest of society-you need only to look at the vast numbers of its followers who have become part of our respective countries' population. But, as long as the religion itself is used by those with power to exploit those without in parts of the world where economics deny the masses the chances we have, then Islam itself will see its name besmirched.

It is worth remembering that Islam is not respresnted solely by the morons rioting and burning in the wake of these cartoons. British TV has been crammed with messages of disgust from Muslims from all walks of life, be they in an official capacity as representatives of the community or simply members of the public. Just as it isn't fair to tar all Christians with the Pat Robertson brush, it is not right to view the past week's news as indicative of the Islamic faith's instability. it's also worth bearing in mind that, comparitively, Islam remains a very young religion, and perhaps it has some way to go before finding its most enlightened form. As AWA points out, Christianity went through its fair share of teething problems over the centuries.
AWArulz
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#5 Posted on 9.2.06 1541.08
Reposted on: 9.2.13 1541.32
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    It is worth remembering that Islam is not respresnted solely by the morons rioting and burning in the wake of these cartoons.


I recognize that, but I would wager that the vast majority (my guess would be 75%+) of the Muslims in the world fit the basic profile I offered. Their governments have no benefit to get them out - they only need a few smart folks to make the techology work and keep themselves comfortable.

And that's what is going to take the community of the world, Muslim Division, time to grow out of.

The Thrill
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#6 Posted on 9.2.06 1913.57
Reposted on: 9.2.13 1914.46
(deleted by CRZ on 10.2.06 0005)
CRZ
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#7 Posted on 10.2.06 0009.45
Reposted on: 10.2.13 0009.53
Hey, I have a terrific idea. Let's NOT post those pictures on this board. That way, people might be less apt to think you're brain dead!
ekedolphin
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#8 Posted on 10.2.06 0113.46
Reposted on: 10.2.13 0115.19
I'm all about freedom of speech and expression, but honestly, who in their right mind would've thought, "Hey, let's post these pictures, because I can't imagine why they'd be offensive to people"?

I mean, they knew they were offending every Muslim in the world, even those who don't practice terrorism. And the ones that do are using the cartoons as an excuse for further violence, while the ones who were on the fence might be seeing this as an excuse to start committing violence.

I'm OK with controversy if it's for the purpose of raising the level of debate, but controversy just for the sake of pissing people off (and especially in this instance, when it's gonna cause violent reaction) is just ridiculous and stupid. And so an issue that began when some guy couldn't find an illustrator for his book has become a worldwide crisis.
DrDirt
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#9 Posted on 10.2.06 0911.35
Reposted on: 10.2.13 0914.25
AWA and I have had this discussion before but what the hell. All wars and turmoil are ultimately economic. Those at the top manipulate using things like religion and the masses being manipulated think it is religious but conflict and struggle revolves around economics.

I do wonder how the Arab world which was flourishing while we were fumbling around in the Dark Ages, was really pretty tolerant and educated has degraded to this point. Colonialism can explain some of it but there is more going on.
spf
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#10 Posted on 10.2.06 1006.30
Reposted on: 10.2.13 1007.15
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    I'm all about freedom of speech and expression, but honestly, who in their right mind would've thought, "Hey, let's post these pictures, because I can't imagine why they'd be offensive to people"?

    I mean, they knew they were offending every Muslim in the world, even those who don't practice terrorism. And the ones that do are using the cartoons as an excuse for further violence, while the ones who were on the fence might be seeing this as an excuse to start committing violence.

    I'm OK with controversy if it's for the purpose of raising the level of debate, but controversy just for the sake of pissing people off (and especially in this instance, when it's gonna cause violent reaction) is just ridiculous and stupid. And so an issue that began when some guy couldn't find an illustrator for his book has become a worldwide crisis.

The problem I have with this is that there is no other group about whom these considerations would come into play. Imagine if Christians reacted this way when Dogma came out, or the Last Temptation of Christ. These portrayals were just as or more provacative of their religion. And there were complaints. But no one seriously considered the idea that they should be banned. No one KILLED Keven Smith the way Theo Van Gogh was killed. Or look at any Arab state tv. I forget which one created a 20 piece miniseries based on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Sometimes it is good to push buttons simply to see what will piss people off so that we can see where the fissures are. This episode shows just how far apart the West and the Muslim world really are right now in terms of how they view civil life. Every group has been offended by someone. Right now only one group tends to take to the streets, burn buildings, and kill people over cartoons. And this is why I am skeptical of any attempt at "nation-building" or "spreading democracy" because our concept of the state and the rights of the citizen is not the same as what is prevailing in the Middle East or other Muslim countries at this point.
Eddie Famous
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#11 Posted on 10.2.06 1124.22
Reposted on: 10.2.13 1126.03
    Originally posted by spf
    Sometimes it is good to push buttons simply to see what will piss people off so that we can see where the fissures are.


No one loves to rouse rabble more than I.

But this is similar to (yet much more deadly than) sticking your bare hand in an active beehive and waving it around. Tugging on Superman's cape.

When you know there's a good chance innocent people will die if you publish a cartoon, why would anyone ever consider publishing it. Maybe those people didn't want to die for your particular definition of freedom of press.
BigSteve
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#12 Posted on 10.2.06 1302.22
Reposted on: 10.2.13 1302.26
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by spf
      Sometimes it is good to push buttons simply to see what will piss people off so that we can see where the fissures are.


    No one loves to rouse rabble more than I.

    But this is similar to (yet much more deadly than) sticking your bare hand in an active beehive and waving it around. Tugging on Superman's cape.

    When you know there's a good chance innocent people will die if you publish a cartoon, why would anyone ever consider publishing it. Maybe those people didn't want to die for your particular definition of freedom of press.


But where do we draw the line? Is the subject of Islam now a taboo where free speech and freedom of the press shouldn't apply because any portrayal that radical Muslims deem less than flattering will result in chaos?

The cartoons were stupid in that they were intended to offend others, but I agree with spf. The answer to this sort of ridiculous behavior isn't to appease the radicals and promise not to do this again. I'm not exactly sure what the answer is when the behavior and attitudes about certain things over there are so different than they are over here, but I'm reasonably sure that idiots who published and drew the cartoons are the last ones that we need to worry about right now.

I came across this (edition.cnn.com) article yesterday regarding the issues of freedom of the press:

    Originally posted by the article
    By adopting a voluntary charter, "the press will give the Muslim world the message: We are aware of the consequences of exercising the right of free expression," [European Justice and Security Minister Franco Frattini] told the newspaper. "We can and we are ready to self-regulate that right."


I sure hope that isn't a popular sentiment over in Europe right now.
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#13 Posted on 10.2.06 1342.03
Reposted on: 10.2.13 1342.25
Interesting report on the radio this morning. Big Danish maker of butter supplies 60% of said commidity to the Middle East and are losing millions. The economic impact is huge and that will likely drive the resolution more than principles.

Also a radio report that the Danes are having a hard time being the evil Satan.
ShotGunShep
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#14 Posted on 10.2.06 1957.33
Reposted on: 10.2.13 1959.01
Why can't the Islamic world seperate the acts of individuals and the policies of states?

I checked my calendar and yes it is still 2006.
AWArulz
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#15 Posted on 10.2.06 2011.36
Reposted on: 10.2.13 2012.33
Hey, I'm also against publishing the pictures here. I don't see any purpose. But I can see why an editor might publish them. I think they're pretty accurate, and certainly no more scandalous than "DaVinci Code" (which says our Lord Jesus had sex with Mary) or "Last Temptation of Christ" (in this one, Jesus only lusted after Mary, I believe). Of course, it's possible Muslims might get excited about DaVinci Code (since Jesus is one of their prophets too).

But Christians these days don't kill over this stuff (as mentioned in an earlier post). I'd say it's been a few hundred years for all but a few Christians.

But Muslims as a group (obviously not counting the minority living in the west) do not have experience with free speech. The cartoons are about a subject the editor wanted to bring forward. Muslims have a problem with Images of prophets. We don't kowtow to Christians - but that's because we know they won't try to kill us if we don't.

Look here for some examples of friendly little Muslim political cartoons - from their papers. A link, not the cartoons themselves.
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Offensive_Cartoons.asp


By the way, Doc - the reason the Muslim world was flourishing in the Middle Ages was:
They had conquered most of their part of the world and could rest. No one wanted their lands (much desert) and other than the Moorish Muslims, opposition was far away. They had money and slaves. Later, they sold a zillion slaves to the new world to finance their culture. When Wahhabism cam on the scene about 1800, the culture stopped advancing and stared retreating.

And that will continue as long as Wahhabist control the Sunni branch of Islam.

Economics aside.


(edited by AWArulz on 10.2.06 2122)
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