The W
Views: 101553565
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
22.12.07 1605
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Bush authorized NSA spying without a warran Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1 2 Next(208 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (34 total)
It's False
Scrapple
Level: 139

Posts: 1443/6041
EXP: 31734047
For next: 733480

Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 13 hours
#1 Posted on 17.12.05 1616.29
Reposted on: 17.12.12 1616.34
Ran into this story yesterday. And while it was a huge story, I didn't think it was thread-worthy.

Reports: Bush Authorized NSA to Spy in U.S.


    The National Security Agency has eavesdropped, without warrants, on as many 500 people inside the United States at any given time since 2002, The New York Times reported Friday.

    That year, following the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush authorized the NSA to monitor the international phone calls and international e-mails of hundreds — perhaps thousands — of people inside the United States, the Times reported.


I thought this would be another one of those stories that the Bush Administration would dance around and deny ad naseum. Then comes today, in which Bush not only admitted to allowing the spying, but said he'll do it AGAIN!

Bush: Eavesdropping Helps Save U.S. Lives


    Facing angry criticism and challenges to his authority in Congress, President Bush on Saturday unapologetically defended his administration's right to conduct secret post-Sept. 11 spying in the U.S. as "critical to saving American lives."

    ---

    He also made clear that he has no intention of halting his authorizations of the NSA's monitoring activities and said the public disclosure of the spy operation endangered Americans.

    Bush said his authority to approve what he called a "vital tool in our war against the terrorists" came from his constitutional powers as commander in chief. He said that he has personally signed off on reauthorizations more than 30 times since the Sept. 11 attacks.

    "The American people expect me to do everything in my power under our laws and Constitution to protect them and their civil liberties," Bush said. "And that is exactly what I will continue to do, so long as I'm the president of the United States."


1) I feel uneasy in my own country. I have friends in London and I don't want NSA guys tapping my phone calls.

2) Isn't this, in essence, an admission of a crime? Tapping phone calls without a warrant is illegal, isn't it?
Promote this thread!
ekedolphin
Scrapple
Level: 133

Posts: 2892/5387
EXP: 27185697
For next: 667043

Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 187 days
Last activity: 25 days
#2 Posted on 18.12.05 0143.34
Reposted on: 18.12.12 0145.33
You're not surprised by this, are you? I've gotten the impression for quite some time now that if Dubya could break the Constitution out of the National Archives and light it on fire in the name of "protecting our civil liberties" and "fighting the terrorists", he would.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator
Level: 139

Posts: 3616/6035
EXP: 32349222
For next: 118305

Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 day
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#3 Posted on 18.12.05 0215.28
Reposted on: 18.12.12 0215.43
If you believe Doug Thompson, he's already said that the Constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper.

Me, I'd love to see the video of this or hear the exact audio in context. I hear they tape everything...

(edited by Guru Zim on 18.12.05 0017)
Jaguar
Knackwurst
Level: 107

Posts: 3187/3273
EXP: 12858970
For next: 232383

Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 259 days
Last activity: 60 days
#4 Posted on 18.12.05 0645.45
Reposted on: 18.12.12 0645.47
Doug Thompson's beard is definitely a beard I can trust.
Lord of the Manor
Chourico
Level: 36

Posts: 194/280
EXP: 307912
For next: 201

Since: 24.2.03
From: London, United Kingdom

Since last post: 664 days
Last activity: 586 days
#5 Posted on 18.12.05 1238.39
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1239.44
What? The board conservatives aren't going to pipe up and try to defend this one too?

If the Dems had any guts they'd have this bastard up for impeachment by now.
AWArulz
Knackwurst
Level: 109

Posts: 1445/3423
EXP: 13745838
For next: 213852

Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 5 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#6 Posted on 18.12.05 1246.54
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1248.18
(deleted by AWArulz on 18.12.05 2105)
Nag
Landjager
Level: 61

Posts: 852/904
EXP: 1795630
For next: 80977

Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

Since last post: 2237 days
Last activity: 292 days
Y!:
#7 Posted on 18.12.05 1350.29
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1350.36
The War on Terror is everybit of a war as is The War on Drugs. You cannot defeat terrorism, you cannot eliminate every single terrorist cell from the globe. There are no objectives, no clear enemy, no path to victory. Terror is a word an idea, bullets, missiles and bombs can topple governments and nations but it cannot destroy words or ideas. Even someone as stupid as Bush knows this, I have yet to figure out how almost half of my countrymen don't. The War on Terror is double speak for, let Elmer Fudd...I mean George Bush and his fascist buddies have carte blanche in establishing his draconian law in this once great country. As long as he is passing out his evangellical flavoured Kool-Aid, all is right with the world.

Things like this is EXACTLY what Bin Laden wanted, and well, it's exactly what Bin Laden got.
Eddie Famous
Andouille
Level: 90

Posts: 1349/2186
EXP: 7050536
For next: 138100

Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#8 Posted on 18.12.05 1608.12
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1608.23
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    What? The board conservatives aren't going to pipe up and try to defend this one too?

    If the Dems had any guts they'd have this bastard up for impeachment by now.


Read the book "Spycatcher" about how your MI5 and MI6 conduct business and have been conducting business since WWII, then come back and comment on how the US agancies work.

Anyone who doesn't think this has been going on in the US for many decades is an idiot. Is it right? Probably legally no. Has it saved lives? Probably yes. Is that a fair tradeoff?
Lord of the Manor
Chourico
Level: 36

Posts: 195/280
EXP: 307912
For next: 201

Since: 24.2.03
From: London, United Kingdom

Since last post: 664 days
Last activity: 586 days
#9 Posted on 18.12.05 1620.29
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1620.32
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Read the book "Spycatcher" about how your MI5 and MI6 conduct business and have been conducting business since WWII, then come back and comment on how the US agancies work.

    Anyone who doesn't think this has been going on in the US for many decades is an idiot. Is it right? Probably legally no. Has it saved lives? Probably yes. Is that a fair tradeoff?


I am an UC born citizen who has chosen to live in the UK. The US is the country that begins wars to spread so-called freedom. Meanwhile, back home that very freedom is being eroded, not by terrorists but by politicians who play the fear card better than any Islamic fundamentalist could ever have the power to do.

Bush has famously said that terrorists "hate our freedom". Is he simply trying to give them less reason to hate the US then?
redsoxnation
Scrapple
Level: 152

Posts: 4968/7534
EXP: 44034471
For next: 267291

Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 539 days
Last activity: 539 days
#10 Posted on 18.12.05 1742.23
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1742.42
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    If the Dems had any guts they'd have this bastard up for impeachment by now.








If you don't have control of the House, you can't get a majority to vote for impeachment. If you don't have the Senate, you can't get a majority to convict, much less the 2/3 vote necessary to achieve impeachment. The Democrats have neither. And, even if they did, all it would do is elevate Cheney and allow the Republicans to slot a VP to groom for the front runner position in '08. As much as people wanted Nixon out of office, Gerald Ford almost pulled off winning in '76 via a similar method.
And, if this was earthshattering news, why did the New York Times keep this story in their pocket for a year until just before the release of a book by their reporter who uncovered this?

(edited by redsoxnation on 18.12.05 1845)
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator
Level: 214

Posts: 7155/16402
EXP: 144941154
For next: 784266

Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネケポăƒȘă‚č

Since last post: 13 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#11 Posted on 18.12.05 1827.51
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1828.18
    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    What? The board conservatives aren't going to pipe up and try to defend this one too?
PLEASE don't make posts like this on this board.
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 65

Posts: 929/1091
EXP: 2222538
For next: 113102

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2901 days
Last activity: 2629 days
#12 Posted on 18.12.05 1828.42
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1828.49
    Originally posted by Nag
    Things like this is EXACTLY what Bin Laden wanted, and well, it's exactly what Bin Laden got.


No, I'm pretty sure Bin Laden doesn't much care about something like this. I'm so tired of hearing people say that if we give up some of our liberties then "the terrorists win." The terrorists really just want to kill people. They win when we stubbornly refuse to change the way we live to even a small extent in order to prevent people from being killed.

    Originally posted by Lord of the Manor
    What? The board conservatives aren't going to pipe up and try to defend this one too?

    If the Dems had any guts they'd have this bastard up for impeachment by now.


Yeah, I'll defend this. I don't think that monitoring international phone calls of suspected terrorists means that we're sliding down some Orwellian slippery slope. Maybe others do. Maybe others fear that Bush and Gonzalez are going to use the PATRIOT Act (or were going to use it) to check what innocent people were checking out of their local public library or conduct warrantless searches in the dead of night. I don't so when the NY Times runs a story telling me how Bush and his facist cronies are lying in wait to encroach on the fundamental civil liberties of innocent civilians who have never so much as jaywalked, I find it hard to get upset.

Impeachment? The Dems could have all the guts in the world but trying to impeach a president with a minority in both houses sure would be stupid.

Big Bad
Scrapple
Level: 146

Posts: 3838/6760
EXP: 38248081
For next: 265305

Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#13 Posted on 18.12.05 1943.35
Reposted on: 18.12.12 1943.55
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    So? It's wartime. You make sacrifices, including your liberties during war.


"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Ben Franklin

I saw an interesting argument about this on CNN the other day. They had two legal experts on, one from each political side, and the Republican was all up in his grill about how this was essential for fighting terrorists and freedom and blah blah blah. The Democrat merely responded that that's all fine, but if it was really crucial, then warrants for the exact same surveillance could've been easily obtained at the drop of a hat. There is no logical purpose to not getting the warrants, unless there is some attempt being made to keep on eye on people who aren't "talking to their Al-Queda buddies about the weather."

Again, I don't think it's a big surprise that this stuff goes on. Compounded with all of the people being held in Guantanemo Bay without trials, and the secret prison camps and whatnot, however, it makes it look like the US has something to hide. Why should America trust George Bush when he has yet to do anything to earn that trust?
AWArulz
Knackwurst
Level: 109

Posts: 1446/3423
EXP: 13745838
For next: 213852

Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 5 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#14 Posted on 18.12.05 2004.05
Reposted on: 18.12.12 2004.24
(deleted by AWArulz on 18.12.05 2104)
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter
Level: 59

Posts: 753/836
EXP: 1589266
For next: 83872

Since: 20.2.03

Since last post: 2598 days
Last activity: 2484 days
#15 Posted on 19.12.05 1101.59
Reposted on: 19.12.12 1102.05
Nag, what the hell are you talking about? Here is your logic... the war on terror is not a war between two nations and is more like the war on drugs. We cannot win the war on drugs. Likewise we cannot win the war on terror. Therefore, let's not even try!

Smart.

No Bin Laden DOES NOT want his henchmen being spyed on. I can guarantee you of that. Bin Laden wants you me and everyone on here dead because we are Westerners and most of of enjoy our decadent lifestyle!

What bin Laden does like is the fact that the media and others are crying and are going to make it easier for his buddies to attack.

I love it how people throw around the word Fascist in place of thought.

Oh yeah and check these out...
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/18/221452.shtml
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/19/114807.shtml

This NSA spying is nothing new.

(edited by ShotGunShep on 19.12.05 0949)
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst
Level: 76

Posts: 884/1469
EXP: 3843577
For next: 162502

Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 3 hours
AIM:  
#16 Posted on 19.12.05 1207.40
Reposted on: 19.12.12 1208.02
Osama doesn't give a rat's ass one way or the other about wire tapping. At least, that's what he told me in our latest phone conversation. And, yes, Feds, if you're reading this, I'm being sarcastic.


We have had legal procedures in place for quite some time that make wire-tapping perfectly acceptable under reasonable suspicion. We don't even NEED to buck the system, since you can tap someone's phone if you have enough power and have reasonable suspicion that said person is being watched for a reason. And, in this post-9/11 utopia, getting clearance for a wiretap on suspicion of terrorist activity can't be too hard for the President of the U.S.

I don't care, as long as they don't use this to come after me for all of the illegal mp3s I may or may not have downloaded for what are most certainly not terrorist-related purposes.


Oh, and terrorists don't care about killing us one way or another. They don't want us dead, specifically. They may want an Islamic fascist state, or infidels driven from their homelands, but their end goal isn't for me to die. If killing me helps them accomplish their end goal, then I may be a target, but that's highly unlikely unless I'm in the White House or some strategic target.

Killing us (and themselves, for that matter) may be a means to an end, but it isn't their goal. I'm not saying that there's nothing to be concerned about (9/11 and all), but to say that the terrorists' only goal is to kill us is just not really understanding the issue.

Not that I'm a terrorist or anything. I'm not. I swear!

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 19.12.05 1025)
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter
Level: 59

Posts: 755/836
EXP: 1589266
For next: 83872

Since: 20.2.03

Since last post: 2598 days
Last activity: 2484 days
#17 Posted on 19.12.05 1745.37
Reposted on: 19.12.12 1745.44
here is a sample of a Bin Laden fatwa..
"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

You are really splitting hairs with your ends and means. They want the resurgence of the dominance of the Islamic World, which means the death of Westerners and their influences. But let's not get off the topic of domestic surveillance (spying )
spf
Scrapple
Level: 133

Posts: 3409/5405
EXP: 27348766
For next: 503974

Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 11 hours
AIM:  
#18 Posted on 19.12.05 1910.34
Reposted on: 19.12.12 1913.29
    Originally posted by ShotGunShep
    here is a sample of a Bin Laden fatwa..
    "We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."
    http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

    You are really splitting hairs with your ends and means. They want the resurgence of the dominance of the Islamic World, which means the death of Westerners and their influences. But let's not get off the topic of domestic surveillance (spying )

Not to be flip about such things as terror and death, but all the sleeper cells in the world right now could not do a damn thing to this country except to make us mad and kill a couple of us. So it's kind of a strawman to set up as though the choice is between allowing wire tapping or ascession to an Islamic state.

And one of the great Western influences, one of the most original ideas that defines Western civilization is civil liberties. The destruction of America will not be from a few Islamists with vendettas. The only way we go down is internally, if we give in to all of our worst impulses, among them the desire to surrender our liberties for the promise of security.
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 65

Posts: 937/1091
EXP: 2222538
For next: 113102

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2901 days
Last activity: 2629 days
#19 Posted on 19.12.05 2334.48
Reposted on: 19.12.12 2334.48

    Not to be flip about such things as terror and death, but all the sleeper cells in the world right now could not do a damn thing to this country except to make us mad and kill a couple of us. So it's kind of a strawman to set up as though the choice is between allowing wire tapping or ascession to an Islamic state.

    And one of the great Western influences, one of the most original ideas that defines Western civilization is civil liberties. The destruction of America will not be from a few Islamists with vendettas. The only way we go down is internally, if we give in to all of our worst impulses, among them the desire to surrender our liberties for the promise of security.


"All" they can do is kill "a couple of us"? What more is there?

And there is no one that seriously fears that we will turn into an Islamic state. The reasons why people like Bin Laden and his Islamofacist buddies are called "terrorists" is because they kill to try to cause political change because they have no popular support. 30 9/11s wouldn't turn this into an Islamic State, but is that the price we're willing to pay to protect some of our civil liberties?

Civil liberties are great, and you're one hundred percent right about certain civil liberties being the basis of Western Civilization. But no one cares about civil liberties when their life is threatened. No one who is actually killed in a terrorist attack is likely to be thankful that they lived without their civil liberties encroached upon.

I'm not willing to give the government free reign in protecting us from terrorism. Look at the other thread about the kid who checked out the Little Red Book. Is that book banned? No, it isn't. Was the student thrown in jail for reading the book? No, he wasn't. All that happened was that DHS checked him out because of a number of factors. As far as I'm concerned that's the way to take protective measures without running roughshod over people's rights. But to some that means that the USA has suddenly become a totalitarian state.

It's easy to say from the safety of our own homes that we should never give up liberty for security, but unless we want to run unecessary risks of being attacked by terrorists, it's silly to cling to the exact same lifestyle we had before 9/11.
Stilton
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 721/793
EXP: 1407215
For next: 78722

Since: 7.2.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 3244 days
Last activity: 3244 days
#20 Posted on 20.12.05 0628.20
Reposted on: 20.12.12 0629.01
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    But no one cares about civil liberties when their life is threatened.


This is quite possibly the most short-sighted thing I've ever read.

This theme is universal. Nobody wants to be told what they can read, what they can write, what they can think, what they can say. These freedoms are basic, and history is filled thousands of "nobodies" who did care about these liberties when their lives were threatened. History is filled with thousands of people who died for these liberties, sometimes their deaths meant something, sometimes tyranny prevailed and they died in vain, but they cared about civil liberties in the face of death.


All this guy wanted was the freedom to study.
(image removed)

(edited by Stilton on 20.12.05 0729)
Pages: 1 2 NextThread ahead: Tragedy in West Virginia, Miners Found Dead
Next thread: Teen skips school, goes to Iraq
Previous thread: We need to end this war NOW!
(208 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Bush authorized NSA spying without a warranRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.222 seconds.