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23.10.07 0901
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - How good is Michaels?
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Octave
Loukanika
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#1 Posted on 10.12.05 0443.58
Reposted on: 10.12.12 0444.23
Not talking about "second coming of Flair" Shawn circa mid 90's. But how good is he NOW in 2005, as compared to the other great workers in the continent.

This comes after reading some of Wade Kellers notes on Michaels, which I really think are exaggerative.
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#2 Posted on 10.12.05 0539.59
Reposted on: 10.12.12 0540.55
Not having read those notes, I dunno if he exaggerates or not.

But Michaels imo is one of the best around right now.
Probably more so than in the 90s.
He is having great matches, crowd eats out of his hand and he can make a promo brilliant with a simple expression on his face.
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#3 Posted on 10.12.05 0903.10
Reposted on: 10.12.12 0903.15
Michaels, to me, is just as good in 2005 as he was in 1995. He can still have great matches, still cut a great promo, and he can still be the biggest dick in the game. The only thing I wish I could see one last time is a true, lengthy heel run.
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#4 Posted on 10.12.05 0907.45
Reposted on: 10.12.12 0907.56
Comparubng Michaels now to at his peak in the mid-90's is like comparing the original Shaft to the new Shaft.

The Original Sgaft - Dirty, dynamic and on of the best movies of the 70's

The New Shaft - Mediocre exploitation of, cant' carry the orgonal's jock.

That said...

Old Michals - Eciting, dynamic and brought a certain charm with him to his matches who also made every match unique.

New Michaels - Runs through a formulaic match that has made the equivalent of the current Ric Flair without being as old (and the fact that Flair actually gets more out of lesser opponents speaks volumes).

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#5 Posted on 10.12.05 1010.14
Reposted on: 10.12.12 1010.55
I have not read Wade's notes, but I would say, personally, that I think Shawn Michaels may in fact be hitting his prime right NOW! He is every bit as good as he EVER was, and he seems to be showing no signs of slowing down. After his first match back in 2002, which was awesome, he seemed to have several mediocre matches in a row. And I was afraid that maybe the new Shawn Michaels wouldn't be all that fun. But sometime in 2003, he seemed to get his groove back. And now, I would say that he might just be the best wrestler in North America.
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#6 Posted on 10.12.05 1111.18
Reposted on: 10.12.12 1112.11
    Originally posted by OMEGA
    I would say that he might just be the best wrestler in North America.


North Aermica? Shawn may not even be the best wrstelr in the WWE (though with the passing of Eddie Guerrero that honor is up for grabs).

I gues it all boils down to opinion and style. Michaels amtches really do nothign for me these days. I think the Wrestlemania match with Angle is way overrrated. It was the best match on that card but certainly not the best match of that Quarter (Kawada/Kojima was better but again that brings th whole style/opinion debate back into question).

I just find the current Michaels to be a weak sister, especially sicne he has switched to cho poffense and his chops are... well... um... it's like watching mock slap fight when he chops.

James
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#7 Posted on 10.12.05 1743.10
Reposted on: 10.12.12 1746.46
His RAW matches lack, but on the big PPV stage, he brings the goods. Has he had a BAD PPV match in the past year? Has he not been in the match of the night in the majority of the past years PPVs? I give him credit, he's in his fourties, had the same back injury as me, and can do far, FAR more athletically than I could imagine.

As for best wrestler in WWE, I say he is just a step behind Angle and Benoit.
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#8 Posted on 10.12.05 2107.56
Reposted on: 10.12.12 2108.02
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    His RAW matches lack, but on the big PPV stage, he brings the goods. Has he had a BAD PPV match in the past year? Has he not been in the match of the night in the majority of the past years PPVs? I give him credit, he's in his fourties, had the same back injury as me, and can do far, FAR more athletically than I could imagine.

    As for best wrestler in WWE, I say he is just a step behind Angle and Benoit.


He faield ot deliver agaisnt Masters adn don't pin the blame on Masters because Flair got a better amtch out of Masters on free TV using Shawn's own back psychology story.

So I've named 1 out of 52 possible weeks of TV. But I named 1

James
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#9 Posted on 10.12.05 2109.18
Reposted on: 10.12.12 2110.55

    As for best wrestler in WWE, I say he is just a step behind Angle and Benoit.

I'd put him behind Rey, too. Rey busts his ass whether it's TV or a PPV, on top of being a very good -> great worker. Whether it's because of working w/ Masters or Carlito the majority of the time, but the last TV match of HBK's that I enjoyed was Shelton/HBK earlier this year.

    Originally posted by J.H.
    New Michaels - Runs through a formulaic match that has made the equivalent of the current Ric Flair without being as old
    ...
    I just find the current Michaels to be a weak sister, especially sicne he has switched to cho poffense and his chops are... well... um... it's like watching mock slap fight when he chops.

I agree. Plus, they really missed the boat on heel HBK. His face promo work is dreadfully boring/hokey. His heel stuff when he was feuding w/ Hogan was just awesome, but as a face, his mic work does nothing for me.

In short, I'm not a big fan of the guy.

(edited by Spaceman Spiff on 10.12.05 2210)
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#10 Posted on 10.12.05 2129.26
Reposted on: 10.12.12 2129.49
    Originally posted by J.H.
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      His RAW matches lack, but on the big PPV stage, he brings the goods. Has he had a BAD PPV match in the past year? Has he not been in the match of the night in the majority of the past years PPVs? I give him credit, he's in his fourties, had the same back injury as me, and can do far, FAR more athletically than I could imagine.

      As for best wrestler in WWE, I say he is just a step behind Angle and Benoit.


    He faield ot deliver agaisnt Masters adn don't pin the blame on Masters because Flair got a better amtch out of Masters on free TV using Shawn's own back psychology story.

    So I've named 1 out of 52 possible weeks of TV. But I named 1

    James


I think a motivated Shawn Michaels is still the best in the business. But a Shawn Michaels who doesn't care is NOT a pretty sight.
Hogan's My Dad
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#11 Posted on 10.12.05 2249.33
Reposted on: 10.12.12 2250.56
Wade Keller is someone who I just passionately disagree with a lot of times. Anyone who loved the Shawn/HHH hell in the cell that was 94 minutes long and was just about the worst PPV main event I've ever seen in my life, is someone I can't ever respect. I just can't think of a match I hated more, a copious mass of ego, a narrative mess turgid with the liquid shittiness of its deluded participants. They bladed, and lay down for damn near a friggin' hour. God Jesus that sucked.

And Wade isn't earning himself any "non-hyperbole" points with his constant HBK fellatio. The guy's good these days, damn good, but you can cross me off the list when you say he can cut anywhere near a decent promo. As a heel, certainly, for Shawn is a HEEL GOD. But as a babyface Shawn is easily the most stale personality of the last ten years. I can't think of anyone more embarrassingly lame. He can't muster any convincing intensity when he speaks. As a heel he was feeling it, you could tell.

As for 1995/96, he was at his peak, but due to the low quality of opponents he had during this period it's safe to say that whole "god run" is overrated, in retrospect. I don't care who you are, you're only going to get so good a match out of a sack of crap. I think most of those matches were pretty formula, just as formula as Bret's were. It was just bump bump bump forearm nipup elbow chin music. Most of the ones I've seen as I've dug into my tape collection recently haven't aged as well as WWE would have us think. His KOTR '96 classic against Davey Boy is an underrated match, though, and brought Shawn to easily his best match of that year, if you can't stomach hour-long Iron Mans. The way they play it off today, you'd think there was no damn show, that people just paid to hear Austin 3:16 for the first time and nothing else happened that night. Also, a RAW single match with Marty Jannetty was better than most of the PPV matches Shawn had in '96 as well, and is also totally underrated/forgotten. Easily the best match they ever had as opponents. I mean, I could have stood to see those bouts more prominently featured, instead of seeing Mankind/HBK from Mind Games for the ten thousandth time, which is a very good match but can't compare athletically with either of the two I just mentioned. The Iron Man was of course great, but not unless you start it from half-way through and forgive that they shat on the stipulation altogether. As for '97, the great TV match with Mankind where Rick Rude returned and of course Hell in the Cell stand out for me. He was too hurt to do much else that year. Probably his best pure wrestling match, non-gimmick, was against Owen Hart sometime in December.

All this talk about how Shawn, Flair, Bret and maybe Angle could get a good match out of anybody is pretty much hot air. There's a huge difference between having a "good match under the circumstances" and having a good match. No one ever had a good match with King Mabel, El Gigante, Issac Yankem, or Luther Reigns.

(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 10.12.05 2054)
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#12 Posted on 11.12.05 0228.18
Reposted on: 11.12.12 0228.18
Agree. As a face, not only does he come across as stale, but also EXTREMELY corny. The guy just tries too hard. A slow walk down the aisle with a smirk on his face and a hand raised up would be more than enough to get him heat, which is where he looks good.

Also, about his formula RAW matches, gotta love the hypocricy. He bashes Bret for doing "unexciting" routine stuff and tears apart Hogan for doing the same things for the last many years. Well guess what, he does the same himself.

Freeway
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#13 Posted on 11.12.05 0253.28
Reposted on: 11.12.12 0254.06
Somebody please tell me why I'm supposed to give a damn about Face HBK. In the ring, he's still got the goods...but I can't for the life of me give a damn about his character unless he's a heel.
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#14 Posted on 11.12.05 1146.46
Reposted on: 11.12.12 1153.11
    Originally posted by Freeway420
    Somebody please tell me why I'm supposed to give a damn about Face HBK. In the ring, he's still got the goods...but I can't for the life of me give a damn about his character unless he's a heel.


Tell me why I'm supposed to give a damn about him anyway? He's doing the same thing all of you people complain about HHH, Hogan, and anyone else the IWC hates of doing...not putting over new talent and formulaic matches. Personally, I thought his Carlito match from two weeks ago was good, I liked the aggressive Carlito. And what happened? Carlito goes down to the Pansy Kick. That's bogus.

As far as his promos go, they aren't good. Michaels is a great heel, but his heel promos are SOLELY due to the fact that he gets to say what he wants on the mic; other wrestlers don't get that privilege to get themselves and their material over. Michaels gets to break kayfabe whenever he wants and you people eat it up. And if his heel promos are wonderful because he's "Feeling it" it's because he probably is still an asshole in real life.

I'd like to see one of Michaels' opponents break kayfabe on him to get over. Talk about the Curtain Call, talk about the SummerSlam 96 tantrum, holding down other talent, being a brat in general. I think that'd be just fine.

Everyone keeps making excuses for him and his lack of psychology and I'll never get why. He is a good wrestler, but not nearly as great as anyone thinks. He's not a draw. He never was a draw. And he'll never be a draw. He'll always be Shawn Michaels--token member of the Vince McMahon Kiss My Ass Club.

Hogan over Michaels was the greatest decision in wrestling history.

Now, go and rate me low just because I disagree with you. Classy.

(edited by Whattaburger on 11.12.05 1512)
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#15 Posted on 11.12.05 1155.53
Reposted on: 11.12.12 1159.01
I personally have trouble with a guy who does a prematch prayer on his way to the aisle while "Sexy Boy" is being blared on the loud speakers. I always believed his match with Angle at 'Mania and the followup at Summerslam? were very good matches, and probably my favorite of his, but I really enjoyed them more because Angle was involved than HBK.

I know the guy is good, and I know what he's done for the business, but I've just never been a big HBK guy.
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#16 Posted on 11.12.05 1313.42
Reposted on: 11.12.12 1316.04
    Originally posted by Whattaburger
    As far as his promos go, they aren't good. Michaels is a great heel, but his heel promos are SOLELY due to the fact that he gets to say what he wants on the mic; other wrestlers don't get that privilege to get themselves and their material over. Michaels gets to break kayfabe whenever he wants and you people eat it up.

In his defense, I think the beauty of the Montreal promo from this past August..was how he was able shift his focus from Hogan to Bret and vice versa on the spot, and as per the crowd's reactions. That was one of the few moments, along with the rest of his recent heel run, where I have been able to enjoy Michaels since his comeback.
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#17 Posted on 11.12.05 1514.36
Reposted on: 11.12.12 1514.48
The thing about the Montreal promo is, it doesn't matter what he said. He's Shawn Michaels, it's Montreal, they played Hart's music. It doesn't matter what else went on there, that's a guaranteed hot scenario. One day, and I firmly believe this, Bret Hart really is going to walk out the curtain to confront Michaels in Montreal, and the house is going to go fucking apeshit. Michaels himself? Yeah, I like Michaels, but it would be nice to see him put over more of the younger talent.
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#18 Posted on 11.12.05 2200.07
Reposted on: 11.12.12 2200.47
    Originally posted by What a burger
    He's not a draw. He never was a draw. And he'll never be a draw.


HBK's drawing power is more myth or force of will than reality. He's definitely not the attraction he thinks he is/was. But he was a significant house show draw in 1996 when WWF houses had theretofore been in "the shitter." And Michaels vs. Hogan was the biggest non-Mania PPV in three years and drew a huge buyrate in large part thanks to Shawn's work building the match (and when other Hogan comeback matches on PPV have been way less successful).

(edited by JustinShapiro on 11.12.05 2302)
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#19 Posted on 11.12.05 2244.12
Reposted on: 11.12.12 2244.31
To me, Shawn is as good as he was ten years ago (albeit not as flashy).

He is a great storyteller in the ring, always work hard. I love Shawn Michaels' work.
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#20 Posted on 12.12.05 0544.21
Reposted on: 12.12.12 0544.42
He stinks at this point.

I mean this as good as he was ten years ago stuff makes me wonder if people watched him ten years ago.

Post comeback has he had a match as good as Michaels vs. Budro from SMW?

As good as Michaels vs.Jarrett?

As good as Michaels vs. Virgil?


Michaels once was good but that was a long time ago. 2005 Michales is a poor man't Kidman.


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