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21.8.07 1113
The 7 - Baseball - 2006 Hall of Fame Ballot
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AWArulz
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#21 Posted on 1.12.05 2352.32
Reposted on: 1.12.12 2353.06
The only one I see on this list is Sutter. Because Bruce basically started the closerrole, in my opinion. I can't even name a closer before Sutter started doing it- not someone who was known for that specialty. Yeah, some other guys have passed his save numbers. But we barely knew what saves were until Bruce showed us.

Close: Dawson, Blyleven, Hershiser
jfkfc
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#22 Posted on 2.12.05 0909.51
Reposted on: 2.12.12 0910.01
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Rice as he was a consistently dominant hitter for over a decade. If he had been mediocre rather than awful his last two seasons, or retired two seasons earlier, he probably would already be in.
If you are for Rice (baseball-reference.com) getting in, are you also for Belle (baseball-reference.com)? Compare their numbers, and you will see that while Rice's totals are higher, Belle's are over a shorter period of time. If Albert had played to his averages for three more seasons, this thread might be titled 2006 Hall of Fame Ballot (Belle and....?). Personally, Belle and Rice were each up there as "Guys who make you say 'oh crap' when they come up in a big spot" in their respective eras.
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    And, I'll take Jack Morris due to his being a big pitcher in a big spot. If he pitched in New York and had three World Series rings and pitched a classic Game 7, he'd be the right handed Whitey Ford.
So if he is not the right handed Whitey Ford, might he be the right handed Andy Pettitte? If Morris had pitched in NY...well...the Yanks weren't exactly winning championships in his prime.
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#23 Posted on 2.12.05 0947.53
Reposted on: 2.12.12 0948.17
    Originally posted by too-old-now
    Considering the numbers Rice put up were in an era before steroids, not to mention his outstanding glove and arm, he finally should make it in.


While Rice was the most feared hitter of his time, he hit into a ton of double plays and his defense would be considered marginal at best. When you mention his outstanding glove and arm, I am not getting it. Living in New England and being old enough to have seen Rice play a majority of his games on the television, his defense was a liability, not an asset. In fact, he DHed about 25% of the time, something an excellent defender generally doesn't do.

That being said, I would not be upset to see Rice elected. In recent years, his stance with media has lightened significantly as he has done a credible job as post-game analyst with NESN. His surly image is being improved by quite a bit.
AWArulz
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#24 Posted on 2.12.05 1018.34
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1018.36
    Originally posted by jfkfc
    If Albert had played to his averages for three more seasons, this thread might be titled 2006 Hall of Fame Ballot (Belle and....?)


No, it would be the 2009 Hall of Fame Ballot (Belle and....?) because Albert would have played three more seasons.

One thing I want to point out in the thread.

I saw some folks getting excited that Hal Morris and Ozzie and a few other not so great players were on the list.

I believe every player who fulfils the qualifications makes to the HOF ballot the first year they are eligible. I think that is 10 years of service and retired 5 years. They you have to carry a certain percent of the votes to win (is is 75%?) and a certain % to be in the ballot again the next year. Once you're dropped, you can only get in through the Veteran's committee. (and why hasn't Ronnie Santo made it yet?)

redsoxnation
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#25 Posted on 2.12.05 1111.35
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1111.53
    Originally posted by jfkfc
      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      Rice as he was a consistently dominant hitter for over a decade. If he had been mediocre rather than awful his last two seasons, or retired two seasons earlier, he probably would already be in.
    If you are for Rice (baseball-reference.com) getting in, are you also for Belle (baseball-reference.com)? Compare their numbers, and you will see that while Rice's totals are higher, Belle's are over a shorter period of time. If Albert had played to his averages for three more seasons, this thread might be titled 2006 Hall of Fame Ballot (Belle and....?). Personally, Belle and Rice were each up there as "Guys who make you say 'oh crap' when they come up in a big spot" in their respective eras.
      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      And, I'll take Jack Morris due to his being a big pitcher in a big spot. If he pitched in New York and had three World Series rings and pitched a classic Game 7, he'd be the right handed Whitey Ford.
    So if he is not the right handed Whitey Ford, might he be the right handed Andy Pettitte? If Morris had pitched in NY...well...the Yanks weren't exactly winning championships in his prime.





If I had a ballot 5 years after he retires, Andy's on it. He could finish with 100 less wins than a Niekro or a Sutton, but, he's more of a Hall of Famers than either of them.
As for Belle vs. Rice: The difference I see is Rice played too long, his eyesight went, thus dropping his career average under .300. He's one of the few guys where longevity hurts, unlike a Yaz where longevity got him in. Belle was dominant for a time, but he wasn't dominant long enough. Another 3-4 years and he would have had a sustained run and probably would be an automatic, despite the baggage. Also, Belle played in the juiced/small park era, while Rice was pre-juiced/large park era.

(edited by redsoxnation on 2.12.05 1212)
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#26 Posted on 2.12.05 1116.17
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1120.47
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    (and why hasn't Ronnie Santo made it yet?)


Because:

1 - I think voters are turned off by his and WGN's incessant campaigning to get him in the Hall of Fame.

and

2 - I think he falls into the inaugural class of the Hall of Very Good. The Cubs teams of the 60s won nothing. It seems incongruous to me that they might have 4 HOFers on their roster (Banks, Jenkins, Williams, plus Santo). If each of them were really HOFers, shouldn't they have won something?
AWArulz
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#27 Posted on 2.12.05 1156.44
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1157.29
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    It seems incongruous to me that they might have 4 HOFers on their roster (Banks, Jenkins, Williams, plus Santo). If each of them were really HOFers, shouldn't they have won something?


You mean, like Al Simmons, Luke Appling, Red Farber, Ted Lyons and Harry Hooper - on the White Sox through the Early 30s?

The 20's and 30s Dodgers - Max Carey, Burleigh Grimes, Dazzy Vance, Zack Wheat, Dave Bancroft, Waite Hoyt, George Kelly, Heinie Manush, Hack Wilson

Oh - the Pirates 28-60 without a pennant- Ralph Kiner, Waite Hoyt, Arky Vaughan, Lloyd Waner, Paul Waner, Hank Greenberg, Billy Herman and more

Lots of teams had lots of good players and didn't win. The 60's Cubs had Don Young too. He more tan made up for how good guys like Williams and Banks and Santo and Jenkins were.

Corajudo
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#28 Posted on 2.12.05 1305.59
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1306.46
I believe every player who fulfils the qualifications makes to the HOF ballot the first year they are eligible. I think that is 10 years of service and retired 5 years. They you have to carry a certain percent of the votes to win (is is 75%?) and a certain % to be in the ballot again the next year.

You are correct in that anyone meeting the 10 years of service ends up on the ballot. They have to receive 5% of the votes to be on the ballot the next year (up to their 15th year of eligibility; after that it's up to the Veteran's Committee). I remember Jim DeShaies campaigning to get one solitary HOF vote (which he did get).

As far the early 30s Sox, Simmons won with the A's, Appling didn't join the Sox until the early 30s, Faber retired in the early 30s (and was a relief pitcher in the early 30s, when that was not important), Lyons heads many lists of the most underserving HOF players, and Hooper retired in 1925. So, you can't describe that combo as a foundation of any of those early 30s White Sox teams. I mean, you could cite Lyons, Simmons and Appling and that would be pretty close to the same representation for the 60s Cubs. And, again, one of them may be the weakest HOF member (can they count for 2.5?).

The other teams cited in the post cover much longer time frames, so you really can't compare their HOF representation to the 1960s Cubs.

Baseball-reference cites Ken Boyer as similar to Santo; I agree with that. Both outstanding players who fall short. In the interest of disclosure, they also list Dale Murphy, Bobby Bonilla and Gary Gaetti as similar, but Murphy wasn't a 3b and the others were not as good (IMHO).

(edited by Corajudo on 2.12.05 1310)
britishiles
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#29 Posted on 2.12.05 1321.39
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1323.48
Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage should have already been in a while back.
BigSteve
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#30 Posted on 2.12.05 1336.03
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1336.03
Ron Santo is a close call in my opinion. His raw numbers were good, and they look better when you consider he only played 15 seasons and that his prime coincided with the offensive drought of the late '60s. Good defense helps his case too, and third base is a somewhat underrepresented position. Santo wouldn't be the worst inductee, but I don't think that we should strive to induct everyone who wouldn't actively lower the HOF standards.

    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    And, I'll take Jack Morris due to his being a big pitcher in a big spot.


Are you just talking about the '91 World Series? Because if not, I don't see how that holds up except for maybe anecdotally. He pitched in seven postseason series and only pitched well in three of them ('84 LCS, '84 WS, and '91 WS) and poorly in the other 4 ('87 LCS, '91 LCS, '92 LCS and WS). I don't think that makes him a big game pitcher.


    If I had a ballot 5 years after he retires, Andy's on it. He could finish with 100 less wins than a Niekro or a Sutton, but, he's more of a Hall of Famers than either of them.


Andy Pettitte? Have you ever thought to yourself (excluding this year) that Pettitte is one of the top five pitchers in baseball? How about the top 10? The only thing on his resume that stands out is the wins, and considering that he played on many great Yankees teams, the fact that he only managed to win 20 games twice even mitigates that a little. Why do you rate among the all-time elites?
redsoxnation
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#31 Posted on 2.12.05 1437.28
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1439.30
Andy Pettite's career numbers:

172-91 (.654 winning percentage) ERA of 3.78 in the regular season. Average of around 17 wins per season when considering he missed most of '04 due to injury. 20+ wins twice, 19 wins once.
14-9 post-season (.609 winning percentage) ERA of 4.08.

As a comparison to Hall of Fame pitchers"
Fergie Jenkins: 284-226 for a .557 winning percentage
Phil Niekro: 318-274 .537.
His Royal Highness Nolan Ryan: 324-292 .526.
Koufax: 165-87 .655 (same amount of years to Pettite at this point, eerily similar won/loss records. And no, Pettite's not Koufax, I know.)
Lefty Gomez: 189-102 .649
Bob (Tim McCarver once caught him in case you didn't know) Gibson: 251-174 .591
Don Drysdale: 209-166 .557, only 2 20+ win seasons, 19 wins once
Gaylord Perry: 314-265 .542
Hoyt Wilhelm: 143-122 .540, 31 saves 2.52 ERA (This is scary. Tim Wakefield's career numbers are 144-123, 22 saves, 4.28 ERA.)



Stack Pettite up against that list of Hall of Fame pitchers, and yes, I think Pettite's a Hall of Fame pitcher. Pitchers, especially left handers, who wins 13 out of every 20 decisions aren't that common.


Crimedog
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#32 Posted on 2.12.05 1457.10
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1457.50
If I had a ballot, it would have Belle, Blyleven, Gossage, Rice, Smith and Sutter on it. Next time around, I'd vote for Dawson and Jack Morris.

The case for Albert Belle is simple. Compare his career stats to Kirby Puckett's:

Puckett:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
1783 7244 1071 2304 414 57 207 1085 450 965 .318 .360 .477

Belle:
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG
1539 5853 974 1726 389 21 381 1239 683 961 .295 .369 .564

Now consider that both of them had their careers cut short by injuries. So if Puck's good enough _ and he is _ than Belle is too. Rice is the ultimate case of "compare a guy to his era". Compare Rice to the stats of the players of his time and he's pretty much a no-brainer. I agree that sticking around and letting his average slide below .300 probably hurt him.

As for Gossage, Smith and Sutter, closers are pitchers too. And it's mind-boggling that Blyleven isn't in the hall.

Also, any voter who ever says "I didn't vote for the guy because he was a jerk" should have his ballot taken away and never, ever be allowed to vote again. It's not the Hall of People Who Are Nice.



(edited by Crimedog on 2.12.05 1557)
Sec19Row53
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#33 Posted on 2.12.05 1545.32
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1546.58
For any Hall of Fame candidate, it's wrong to compare him to one HoFer, or even to a sampling of them. You need to compare them to all players at the same position. If you've selected the worst player in the Hall as your point of comparison, you've chosen a poor comparison point.

If you have the chance, and enjoy this annual discussion, I'd highly recommend reading George Will's "The Politics of Glory", which may also be known by "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?". Contact me, I'd be willing to share my copy if you don't want to buy it.
Corajudo
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#34 Posted on 2.12.05 1555.08
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1555.27
The Politics of Glory (aka Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame) is by Bill James, not George Will. It's a nice book, but James isn't a good writer and he is basically presenting the same (or a similar) argument throughout the book, so it was hard for me to finish. It's still an interesting read and I'd recommend it.

Buy it from Amazon using the 'Spend' icon!

As far as Pettite goes, he'll need to continue to pitch effectively for a while because he doesn't have near the longevity nor the stats necessary. Plus, there's the not-Koufax thing, which includes only 2 All Star appearances and being in the top ten in ERA only 3 times. And, I sincerely hope that HOF voters look at starting pitchers as a group rather than say 'hey, we don't have a lot of leftie starters, now do we?'
Eddie Famous
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#35 Posted on 2.12.05 1825.49
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1828.49
    Originally posted by Corajudo
    Baseball-reference cites Ken Boyer as similar to Santo; I agree with that. Both outstanding players who fall short. In the interest of disclosure, they also list Dale Murphy, Bobby Bonilla and Gary Gaetti as similar, but Murphy wasn't a 3b and the others were not as good (IMHO).

    (edited by Corajudo on 2.12.05 1310)


According to Retrosheet, Santo had the top BFW in baseball in 1964 (7.1), 1966 (7.3) and 1967 (7.6), and was very high on the list in 1965 (6.2).

Boyer was MVP in 1964, his BFW was 2.3. His career high was 4.5.

Santo was a much better player than Boyer, and absolutely belongs in the Hall.
Wpob
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#36 Posted on 5.12.05 1038.16
Reposted on: 5.12.12 1039.06
    Originally posted by redsoxnation


    Bob (Tim McCarver once caught him in case you didn't know) Gibson: 251-174 .591

    That's the funniest thing I have read all day! McCarver...what a tool.
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