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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - 30% think rape is deserved if.....
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Roy.
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#21 Posted on 1.12.05 1006.15
Reposted on: 1.12.12 1007.00
EDIT: rinberg and Doc are right (in their posts below). I should've seen it earlier, so I'm revising history and dumping what I wrote before.

(edited by Roy. on 1.12.05 1318)
corneilius
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#22 Posted on 1.12.05 1009.04
Reposted on: 1.12.12 1009.09
Mmmmmm...

Your thoughts and feelings sound like soundbites, and have no depth whatsoever, so let me help you out.

Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control, as is politics. Why do we use the term "rape" in context of the "rape" of the forests, the oceans, the land, of Afica? Because the core issue is control and power. And how people use strategy to maintain control and power.

Manipulation is part of this issue. Getting a person drunk/stoned/drugged so that one can have one's way is pretty much the same as politicians misleading people to support a war, it is manipulation. And no good can come from it.

The set-up for such susceptability to manipulation is inherent in most current education systems, in most current religious systems, in history, presented as truth and as told by the victors.

For example, in the current news story in the UK whereby the man, the defendent, who was taking advantage of the girl who was so drunk, so incapable as to be falling over and .... the proof of my statements above is in a) the statement of the Judge in the UK who said that the girls' drunkeness was a consent, and b) the lack of a rational response in our media to that judges statement.

Just to let you know, I was raped by priests, abused physically by nuns and humiliated by most adults I came in contact with in catholic boarding schools, in the 1960's, and for a time I used to say to myself that those experiences made me stronger. Well they did not. No good came from those experiences.

What goodness there is in my life comes from my understanding, healing, empathy and compassion ... and those qualities other people have shown in their dealings with me, a survivor, qualities those of you who have been responding to this thread with attacking questions seem to lack.

I agree with you that this thread is not to be hijacked or to become another discussion about the current Iraq War, and yes it is about Iraq, it is about the slaughter of the indigenous peoples, it is about your identity and where you are informed or not. It is about your consent to abuse, and how that consent is manufactured, manipulated and hidden in ideology.

Does that help?

Leroy
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#23 Posted on 1.12.05 1040.05
Reposted on: 1.12.12 1041.13
    Originally posted by corneilius
    Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control, as is politics. Why do we use the term "rape" in context of the "rape" of the forests, the oceans, the land, of Afica? Because the core issue is control and power. And how people use strategy to maintain control and power.




Frankly, I think the word "rape" is misused in all of your examples. Like "facist", it's a term folks throw out WAY too much. Just because people use it, doesn't mean they should.

Rape is not JUST about power. It is also about sex. If it wasn't, then it would not be any different than any other type of assault. Sorry, but it is - in terms of intention, execution, and result.

If you wanted to focus on the fact that rape is a part of a war - and not in some general, abstract sense, but in fact rape is a very real by-product of war - then you might have less people dismissing you.

    Originally posted by corneilius
    Manipulation is part of this issue. Getting a person drunk/stoned/drugged so that one can have one's way is pretty much the same as politicians misleading people to support a war, it is manipulation. And no good can come from it.


Is manipulation a part of rape? Probably, yes. But the two are not equivalent. Manipulating a person, a group, or a country, is not equivalent to "raping" them.

Lastly (and not meaning to get personal), but I think the fact that you've taken this thread in the direction you did is exactly part of the problem. I think there a very specific issues that one can address in dealing with rape. There's no need to expand into some geopolitical conetxt. Sexism, gender dynamics, etc - and I'm not even remotely scratching the surface - are just some specific areas that can be addressed with out getting into Iraq, Bush, and all of that.
ShotGunShep
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#24 Posted on 1.12.05 1052.46
Reposted on: 1.12.12 1054.20
People use the word rape to describe deforestation and such to get a reaction. It's called spin.

Do you want to substantiate the words you type? You condemn religion, education and history, but you offer no examples?
You say you want to get rid of labels like Christian and Muslim, but then you condemn religion altogether. Aren't you MAKING a division between atheist and believer? Like I said before, your ideological purging and utopianism is dangerous.

Your past experiences don't give you any kind of authority on this topic(I'm not even really sure what the topic is). That type of argument is Marxist and flawed. Speaking of Karl, go read him and start a revolution somewhere because you are really sounding like a Commie.

I can't decide if this guy is a troll or not.
rinberg
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#25 Posted on 1.12.05 1141.50
Reposted on: 1.12.12 1142.55
    Originally posted by corneilius
    Your thoughts and feelings sound like soundbites, and have no depth whatsoever, so let me help you out.


Shep: You're kidding right?
1) This is the only thread that this person is interested in.
2) This person is instantly dismissive of any oppossing ideas.

I call troll. I will not participate further.
DrDirt
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#26 Posted on 1.12.05 1158.32
Reposted on: 1.12.12 1158.45
    Originally posted by rinberg
      Originally posted by corneilius
      Your thoughts and feelings sound like soundbites, and have no depth whatsoever, so let me help you out.


    Shep: You're kidding right?
    1) This is the only thread that this person is interested in.
    2) This person is instantly dismissive of any oppossing ideas.

    I call troll. I will not participate further.


I swear, with no sarcasm intended. The bunch here is pretty sharp. That is why I am so surprised it took this long to figure out. I belive cornelius is guilty of more than a little sophistry. Hopefully, he will decide to really discuss these issues and cut the banal crap.
CRZ
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#27 Posted on 1.12.05 1441.50
Reposted on: 1.12.12 1442.33
    Originally posted by rinberg
    1) This is the only thread that this person is interested in.
Well, he also doesn't like Bob Geldof. I think.
    Originally posted by corneilius
    At this point of the conversation, I would be interested more in what you think.

    What are your thoughts on rape?

    More importantly, what are your feelings regarding rape?
In order of the entries found here... (m-w.com)

1. I'm fer it
2. I'm agin it
3. I'm agin it
4. I'm fer it

More importantly, I need to follow the fine example set by others in this thread, SO: this will be my potentially penultimate post in this thread, the potentially final post being the one I make announcing that this thread is closed.
corneilius
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#28 Posted on 2.12.05 0955.49
Reposted on: 2.12.12 0955.55
Thanks for the dictionary link here's what it says:

Main Entry: 2rape
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): raped; raping
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin rapere
1 a archaic : to seize and take away by force b : DESPOIL
2 : to commit rape on

Seems to fit the bill, in relation to what i have been attemting to communicate.

Me a commie? lol!

Why close a thread that loads of other people are looking at and presumably finding intersting?

Further to your request here are some examples of educational/religious/political misleading mis-information supplied and presented as fact eg: the world is flat (ok that was along time ago!), the devil is after your soul (this one seems to be on the up and up in the US), muslim/communist/anarchist people want to overthrow the west, American constitution was written by the people for the people, (native americans were not considered as people at that time, women were not allowed to vote, any man could batter his wife at home, and get away with it as the woman was seen as a possesion of the man), Vietnam was a war supported by the american people(hah! 500,000 desertions and plenty of documentary evidence, now surfacing, to show that even the militayr general staff thought that idea was not a good one, as they also felt about Iraq), dropping the atomic bomb on nagasaki/hiroshima was neccessary to save american lives, the list is endless. These are the lies we were taught at school, by religious people and by politicians.

However my patience is not infinite.

Unless you can come up with something vaguely interesting or can in any way contribute to this discussion I shall desist from making nay more comments, as your inability to converse, to share truths shames you.

Moderates that,

El Nastio
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#29 Posted on 2.12.05 1040.04
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1040.04
Of the original topic of the thread,

I come from a long bloodline of people who rape women (my father being the most recent to be put away for sexual assult). Those things, the behaivour exhibited, are often eviromental traits (plus some others too like possibly heriditary) which can be passed down to children. I used to be like them. Objectifying women, wanting to have sex with them regardless of if they wanted it. Simply put; there was some women who I wanted to rape....some women who I was going to rape if there were less people around.


All I know is I've worked hard to overcome my personal demons, it's taken a lot of energy, bloodshed (literally), and hell of a lot of tenacity, but I've got it under control. And in doing so, I've developed NO tolerance for sexual assult and those who practice it. I'm of the personal opinion that it doesn't matter WHAT she's wearing or doing, rape is inexcusable. PERIOD. And if you come across my way and I know you've done something to a woman....

I'm a religous man, a devout man. I try to walk a Christian life, live a Sacramental lifestyle. But there's one thing that'll make me forget all of that, and that's when there's rape and abuse of women and children involved. Oh, after a while I'll be calm and think rationally, but during a short span of time, I'll go absolutly crazy on people.

You can ask the guys who've had their beatings what happens (few things are more satisfying than seperating a guy's shoulder after he just hit a woman).

Simply put; there's no good reason that I've ever heard. Anyone who tries to come up with ANYTHING to condone the raping of a woman (or man, because that happens as well) needs to get their heads examined.



On a side note; generally speaking Corneilius, it may be a better idea to troll BEFORE Troll Amnesty, not after.

(edited by El Nastio on 2.12.05 1142)
corneilius
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#30 Posted on 2.12.05 1149.52
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1151.09
Thanks El Nastio for your honesty .... that's a real contribution. It is genuine information.

I am new to forum ettiquette so could you please explain what troll means? I wish to learn.

DrDirt
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#31 Posted on 2.12.05 1220.58
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1227.34
    Originally posted by corneilius
    Thanks for the dictionary link here's what it says:

    Main Entry: 2rape
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): raped; raping
    Etymology: Middle English, from Latin rapere
    1 a archaic : to seize and take away by force b : DESPOIL
    2 : to commit rape on

    Seems to fit the bill, in relation to what i have been attemting to communicate.

    Me a commie? lol!

    Why close a thread that loads of other people are looking at and presumably finding intersting?

    Further to your request here are some examples of educational/religious/political misleading mis-information supplied and presented as fact eg: the world is flat (ok that was along time ago!), the devil is after your soul (this one seems to be on the up and up in the US), muslim/communist/anarchist people want to overthrow the west, American constitution was written by the people for the people, (native americans were not considered as people at that time, women were not allowed to vote, any man could batter his wife at home, and get away with it as the woman was seen as a possesion of the man), Vietnam was a war supported by the american people(hah! 500,000 desertions and plenty of documentary evidence, now surfacing, to show that even the militayr general staff thought that idea was not a good one, as they also felt about Iraq), dropping the atomic bomb on nagasaki/hiroshima was neccessary to save american lives, the list is endless. These are the lies we were taught at school, by religious people and by politicians.

    However my patience is not infinite.

    Unless you can come up with something vaguely interesting or can in any way contribute to this discussion I shall desist from making nay more comments, as your inability to converse, to share truths shames you.

    Moderates that,




First, you just don't get it.

Second, what the hell did our country do to get your panties in such a bunch.

Finally, neither is the patience of many of us here.
Guru Zim
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#32 Posted on 2.12.05 1408.21
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1410.09
I can't decide if this is a troll post or a serious post. I have determined that either way, I'm done with it.

Cornelius, use google to search for "Usenet Troll". If you aren't intentionally trolling the board, you may want to look at how other people here post (Hint: High and mighty, snobbish, "above everyone" posts are bad) and change your ways.

If Chris had not been responding to you, I would have banned you after post #2.
corneilius
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#33 Posted on 2.12.05 1550.32
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1551.15
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    I can't decide if this is a troll post or a serious post. I have determined that either way, I'm done with it.

    Cornelius, use google to search for "Usenet Troll". If you aren't intentionally trolling the board, you may want to look at how other people here post (Hint: High and mighty, snobbish, "above everyone" posts are bad) and change your ways.

    If Chris had not been responding to you, I would have banned you after post #2.


I have just googled "usenet troll" and guarantee that I am not a troll, at least in the sense indicated, one who seeks to stir the shit, annoy or distract people who use boards.

Judging from the response to my points of view, I do seem to have upset a few people - but there is something that I'd like to point out, which is that this discussion is getting a lot of attention, a lot more than could possibly be accounted by if for example you who have responded kept repeatedly viewing and reviewing this thread.

Censorship/Banning is the last resort of frightened mindsets.

I stand uncorrected. Rape "to seize and take away by force" is not about sex, it is about power and control. As is politics. Our consent to such behaviour is being manipulated, and thus we are raped. And to the extent we ignore this, or deny it we are complicit.

I include myself in this.



CRZ
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#34 Posted on 2.12.05 1558.35
Reposted on: 2.12.12 1558.47
    Originally posted by corneilius
    I have just googled "usenet troll" and guarantee that I am not a troll, at least in the sense indicated, one who seeks to stir the shit, annoy or distract people who use boards.
I'M *ANNOYED*.

    Judging from the response to my points of view, I do seem to have upset a few people - but there is something that I'd like to point out, which is that this discussion is getting a lot of attention, a lot more than could possibly be accounted by if for example you who have responded kept repeatedly viewing and reviewing this thread.
You're falling into the trap of assuming that all attention is good attention. Brian's profile gets 42000 views, but they're not looking for him - they're looking for a picture of Anne Hathaway.

    Censorship/Banning is the last resort of frightened mindsets.
In your world, perhaps. But this is MY world.

    I stand uncorrected. Rape "to seize and take away by force" is not about sex, it is about power and control. As is politics. Our consent to such behaviour is being manipulated, and thus we are raped. And to the extent we ignore this, or deny it we are complicit.
Seriously - WHAT THE FUCK. I don't even know who you think is arguing this point with you (if indeed this is FINALLY what you've decided your point is). I realise that you think EVERYBODY on this board EXCEPT you doesn't get it, and you're welcome to that opinion - however, this thread is OVER. The next thread you start better have a clearly definable POINT to it or I promise you won't be making a second post in it.

(edited by CRZ on 2.12.05 1600)
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