The W
Views: 100861377
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
26.11.07 0409
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Benoit... Here's The Door
This thread has 4 referrals leading to it
Register and log in to post!
Pages: Prev 1 2 3(1414 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (54 total)
AWArulz
Knackwurst
Level: 109

Posts: 1358/3408
EXP: 13617127
For next: 342563

Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 12 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#41 Posted on 7.11.05 1501.51
Reposted on: 7.11.12 1502.39
    Originally posted by sentonBOMB
    I just think that signing ex-WWE guys should not be the way TNA spends their money. They need to be signing new, unique wrestlers -- guys like AJ Styles, Monty Brown, Samoa Joe -- that will give them a personality of their own.


I guess my point, much earlier in this thread was that this is exactly what the WWE needs to do as well and guys who are older and getting a little more predictable ought to be doing their thing, which includes helping to push the new talent. I think Benoit, as a smaller wrestltler with great skills (though I believe greatly diminished from a few years back) ought to be employed in showing these younger guys how to main event and elevating them.

The question - back at the start of the thread that I posed is: should a guy still get "big star of the company" pay when he's doing that job? Face it: Michaels seems to still be able to go and get heat at will. But he spends a lot of his time helping new talent - Cena, Carlito, even Masters. Yeah, he wins a lot - but he's Michaels, for goodnesssake. Undertaker's mostly done and just does occasionals - that goes for the other older talent as a rule (ie: the Foleys, Hogans, Austins, Flairs and the rest). Now, I think Benoit has the ability to do about the same kind of work as Michaels EXCEPT, well, Quite Frankly (TM VKM), he isn't anywhere near the man on the stick Shawn is.

Should Benoit get big money (a step down from HHH money - probably similar to what Shawn's getting, probably about what Eddie is getting? I say you pay for what people can do and, admittedly, Benoit is a valuable part of the company, especially in the past. So he should get a contract, but he's not your best ME guy anymore.

Just my opinion.
komarkaze
Mettwurst
Level: 29

Posts: 117/159
EXP: 132058
For next: 15828

Since: 9.1.03
From: VA

Since last post: 2230 days
Last activity: 2227 days
#42 Posted on 7.11.05 1637.19
Reposted on: 7.11.12 1637.42
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by sentonBOMB
      I just think that signing ex-WWE guys should not be the way TNA spends their money. They need to be signing new, unique wrestlers -- guys like AJ Styles, Monty Brown, Samoa Joe -- that will give them a personality of their own.


    I guess my point, much earlier in this thread was that this is exactly what the WWE needs to do as well and guys who are older and getting a little more predictable ought to be doing their thing, which includes helping to push the new talent. I think Benoit, as a smaller wrestltler with great skills (though I believe greatly diminished from a few years back) ought to be employed in showing these younger guys how to main event and elevating them.

    The question - back at the start of the thread that I posed is: should a guy still get "big star of the company" pay when he's doing that job? Face it: Michaels seems to still be able to go and get heat at will. But he spends a lot of his time helping new talent - Cena, Carlito, even Masters. Yeah, he wins a lot - but he's Michaels, for goodnesssake. Undertaker's mostly done and just does occasionals - that goes for the other older talent as a rule (ie: the Foleys, Hogans, Austins, Flairs and the rest). Now, I think Benoit has the ability to do about the same kind of work as Michaels EXCEPT, well, Quite Frankly (TM VKM), he isn't anywhere near the man on the stick Shawn is.

    Should Benoit get big money (a step down from HHH money - probably similar to what Shawn's getting, probably about what Eddie is getting? I say you pay for what people can do and, admittedly, Benoit is a valuable part of the company, especially in the past. So he should get a contract, but he's not your best ME guy anymore.

    Just my opinion.


The fans do see Benoit as main event caliber no matter how many times he's curtain-jerking. Benoit still gets standing ovations quite frequently whether he wins or loses, and he's been out of the main event scene for a while. And Benoit has always been matched up with newer talent and making them look good. He made Batista look like a complete monster during this year's Wrestlemania push. If WWE decides to throw Benoit back into the title hunt, I have no doubts the fans would be more than willing to accept it.
The Vile1
Lap cheong
Level: 80

Posts: 1188/1694
EXP: 4659036
For next: 123953

Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 2046 days
Last activity: 1778 days
#43 Posted on 7.11.05 1722.34
Reposted on: 7.11.12 1722.51
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    I guess my point, much earlier in this thread was that this is exactly what the WWE needs to do as well and guys who are older and getting a little more predictable ought to be doing their thing, which includes helping to push the new talent. I think Benoit, as a smaller wrestltler with great skills (though I believe greatly diminished from a few years back) ought to be employed in showing these younger guys how to main event and elevating them.

    The question - back at the start of the thread that I posed is: should a guy still get "big star of the company" pay when he's doing that job? Face it: Michaels seems to still be able to go and get heat at will. But he spends a lot of his time helping new talent - Cena, Carlito, even Masters. Yeah, he wins a lot - but he's Michaels, for goodnesssake. Undertaker's mostly done and just does occasionals - that goes for the other older talent as a rule (ie: the Foleys, Hogans, Austins, Flairs and the rest). Now, I think Benoit has the ability to do about the same kind of work as Michaels EXCEPT, well, Quite Frankly (TM VKM), he isn't anywhere near the man on the stick Shawn is.

    Should Benoit get big money (a step down from HHH money - probably similar to what Shawn's getting, probably about what Eddie is getting? I say you pay for what people can do and, admittedly, Benoit is a valuable part of the company, especially in the past. So he should get a contract, but he's not your best ME guy anymore.

    Just my opinion.


I think I already explained why he should be. In 2002, 2003, and 2004, Benoit was delivering the best matches on TV and PPV, without hyperbole. HHH basically squashes and destroys the credibility of all his opponents, wrestles some of the lamest main events ever, but he's still at the top of the company. And I think we all know why.

As komarkaze pointed out, no matter what, Benoit is still getting strong ovations during all of his matches. He's also proven to be a company man more than anything else. I don't see HBK helping out other workers like Benoit did.
Tribal Prophet
Andouille
Level: 88

Posts: 1169/2058
EXP: 6402811
For next: 247879

Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 19 hours
Last activity: 6 hours
#44 Posted on 7.11.05 1835.38
Reposted on: 7.11.12 1838.02
    Originally posted by komarkaze
    The fans do see Benoit as main event caliber no matter how many times he's curtain-jerking. Benoit still gets standing ovations quite frequently whether he wins or loses, and he's been out of the main event scene for a while. And Benoit has always been matched up with newer talent and making them look good. He made Batista look like a complete monster during this year's Wrestlemania push. If WWE decides to throw Benoit back into the title hunt, I have no doubts the fans would be more than willing to accept it.


I agree with what you're saying, but the problem is that these contracts the WWE offers aren't short-term ones. They tend to be 3-5 years long as a rule. Sure, the fans see him as a potential maineventer *now*, but could you say the same thing in 2009?

I see the WWE's point in reducing the offered amount in the contract, as it makes sense that the guy's best days are behind him and he's not getting any younger. However, personally I think that that should apply to the Hardcore Holly's of the world. Benoit is on a different level status wise right now. Either give Benoit a shorter contract at an in-between price, or else extend his current one for a year or something. Wait for him to say that it's time to cut back. I can't see him doing this forever as the wear and tear will only get harder to deal with with age.


Tribal Prophet
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 65

Posts: 853/1091
EXP: 2214784
For next: 120856

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2875 days
Last activity: 2603 days
#45 Posted on 7.11.05 2335.30
Reposted on: 7.11.12 2335.54

    I think I already explained why he should be. In 2002, 2003, and 2004, Benoit was delivering the best matches on TV and PPV, without hyperbole. HHH basically squashes and destroys the credibility of all his opponents, wrestles some of the lamest main events ever, but he's still at the top of the company. And I think we all know why.


Yes we do know why - because he is one of the best all-around performers in the company today. The implication that he's a main eventer solely because of who he sleeps with is silly because he was a main eventer for several years beforehand and would be today no matter who he married.

I don't know what your definition of "lamest main events ever" is, but I can name about a dozen matches off the top of my head that Triple H has had in the last year that have generally been well received. Yeah that match against Steiner three years ago was ungodly horrible, but not even Benoit could have had a good match with that roided up, broken down slug.

And I wouldn't say that he "basically squashes and destroys the credibility of all his opponents" when he lost to Benoit himself about ninety different times before finally getting his win back after it didn't matter anymore. And he lost to Batista three times to push him firmly into the main event spot he has today. And he lost to Shelton Benjamin last year to jumpstart his singles career. But hey, Triple H holds everyone down, right?
The Vile1
Lap cheong
Level: 80

Posts: 1190/1694
EXP: 4659036
For next: 123953

Since: 4.9.02
From: California

Since last post: 2046 days
Last activity: 1778 days
#46 Posted on 8.11.05 0103.50
Reposted on: 8.11.12 0108.09
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    Yes we do know why - because he is one of the best all-around performers in the company today. The implication that he's a main eventer solely because of who he sleeps with is silly because he was a main eventer for several years beforehand and would be today no matter who he married.


When HHH wrestled one of the single worst world title matches of all time at Royal Rumble, being one of "the best all-around performers in the company today" was the last thing on my mind. I'd say that title is more appropriate for Chris Benoit when on the same night he and Kurt Angle single-handedly resurrected a dead crowd with the match of the year.


    I don't know what your definition of "lamest main events ever" is, but I can name about a dozen matches off the top of my head that Triple H has had in the last year that have generally been well received. Yeah that match against Steiner three years ago was ungodly horrible, but not even Benoit could have had a good match with that roided up, broken down slug.


I'm just saying, that night, HHH had a horrible, world title match, and on the same night, Benoit has one of the best of all time. A month later at No Way Out, HHH has ANOTHER horrible world title match with Scott Steiner, and Benoit competes in another match of the night on PPV.

After HHH destroyed Booker T as a world title contender, competed in a lackluster and pointless feud with Kevin Nash, and an ultimately even more pointless one with Bill Goldberg, because there was no one else left, the guy they had to bring in to challenge HHH was Chris Benoit.

Someone said Chris Benoit's best years are behind him. Just last year he competed in what's considered to be the best Wrestlemania main event ever and the best Wrestlemania rematch ever. He went longer than anyone else in the rumble in WWE history, and he lasted pretty much the longest in this year's as well. He's still wrestling great matches on a consistent basis, unfortunately its usually against William Regal on Velocity. To me this is not a guy whose best years are behind him.



    And I wouldn't say that he "basically squashes and destroys the credibility of all his opponents" when he lost to Benoit himself about ninety different times before finally getting his win back after it didn't matter anymore. And he lost to Batista three times to push him firmly into the main event spot he has today. And he lost to Shelton Benjamin last year to jumpstart his singles career. But hey, Triple H holds everyone down, right?


I was referring to before that in the 2002-2003 period.
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 65

Posts: 854/1091
EXP: 2214784
For next: 120856

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2875 days
Last activity: 2603 days
#47 Posted on 8.11.05 0140.19
Reposted on: 8.11.12 0140.42

    When HHH wrestled one of the single worst world title matches of all time at Royal Rumble, being one of "the best all-around performers in the company today" was the last thing on my mind. I'd say that title is more appropriate for Chris Benoit when on the same night he and Kurt Angle single-handedly resurrected a dead crowd with the match of the year.



I'm not saying that Benoit isn't good or that he isn't as good as Triple H or anything like that. But if we switch the matches and have Triple H vs Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit vs Scott Steiner, which one is match of the night and which one is best forgotten? Benoit is fantastic, but I think Jesus Christ is the only one that could have gotten a good match out of Steiner during his WWE run.


    Someone said Chris Benoit's best years are behind him. Just last year he competed in what's considered to be the best Wrestlemania main event ever and the best Wrestlemania rematch ever. He went longer than anyone else in the rumble in WWE history, and he lasted pretty much the longest in this year's as well. He's still wrestling great matches on a consistent basis, unfortunately its usually against William Regal on Velocity. To me this is not a guy whose best years are behind him.


But that's not really the point. Sure Benoit can still go in the ring. There's no doubting that. And yeah, I would agree that he has value to the WWE. But his best days really are behind him. He held the title for about six months in 2004, and he's never going to be that high on the card again. His role at this point is to put people over and have good matches. It's a role he'll fill well, and he'll be an asset to the company, but he's never going to be a top guy.



    I was referring to before that in the 2002-2003 period.


You did mention 2004, so that's why I brought that stuff up. Either way, that's the past, and it really isn't relevant to today or to Benoit's situation. Otherwise we could just talk about the period before he tore his quad when he had more great matches than you could count.
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst
Level: 75

Posts: 866/1451
EXP: 3762408
For next: 64513

Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 13 hours
Last activity: 4 hours
AIM:  
#48 Posted on 8.11.05 1031.35
Reposted on: 8.11.12 1036.56
Unless Benoit's injuries are catching up with him, I think Benoit is definitely worth the money for WWE. I don't know what the numbers were for his World Title run last year, if they were better or worse than HHH's or anyone else, but I would like to see him have another go at it. His first run went pretty well, I thought. Maybe with the WWE Title this time.

That Benoit has been given a US Title run and been downgraded on the card is unfortunate, and I think unnecessary. No, he isn't great on the mic, but he's one of the few peole who isn't great on the mic and still has a following. And that's saying something in today's WWE!

I don't think he's quite at that point where he should be taking up the mantle of "Established guy who puts over newcomers".

That said, no matter what offer he's getting from WWE, I fully expect that he'll take it. He isn't getting any younger and WWE has been good to him so far.
BendyStraws
Longanisa
Level: 14

Posts: 21/32
EXP: 10673
For next: 2398

Since: 20.5.05
From: Windham, Maine

Since last post: 2267 days
Last activity: 2248 days
AIM:  
#49 Posted on 8.11.05 1302.40
Reposted on: 8.11.12 1302.40
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    Sure Benoit can still go in the ring. There's no doubting that. And yeah, I would agree that he has value to the WWE. But his best days really are behind him . . . He held the title for about six months in 2004, and he's never going to be that high on the card again . . . he's never going to be a top guy.


Why? Because you insist on it? Who is giving you this inside information? You keep saying "his best days are behind him" yet you've offered absolutely no good reason to back it up. Citing that his position on the card is lower now than before is not a good reason - given WWE booking, at any moment Benoit could rise to the top again because he's every bit as good as he was in 2004.

What's more, a wrestler who makes other people look better than they could ever make themselves look is worth his weight in gold, even if he "will never be a top guy."

I hope Benoit doesn't sign and TNA snaps him up. And Christian. And Jericho. And Storm. And Haas. I don't know when Benjamin's contract is up, but I hope it's soon and I hope he gets the hell outta there too. Jobbing on Heat. Something's gotta wake Stamford up. I don't even watch TNA, but if they got all or even some of those guys, I *would.*
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 65

Posts: 856/1091
EXP: 2214784
For next: 120856

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2875 days
Last activity: 2603 days
#50 Posted on 8.11.05 1323.18
Reposted on: 8.11.12 1326.39
    Originally posted by BendyStraws
      Originally posted by BigSteve
      Sure Benoit can still go in the ring. There's no doubting that. And yeah, I would agree that he has value to the WWE. But his best days really are behind him . . . He held the title for about six months in 2004, and he's never going to be that high on the card again . . . he's never going to be a top guy.


    Why? Because you insist on it? Who is giving you this inside information? You keep saying "his best days are behind him" yet you've offered absolutely no good reason to back it up. Citing that his position on the card is lower now than before is not a good reason - given WWE booking, at any moment Benoit could rise to the top again because he's every bit as good as he was in 2004.


The inside information is in this very thread where it said that Meltzer reported that WWE gave Benoit a lowball contract offer. It seems to me if they're willing to do that, they are not all that concerned about the possibility of him leaving. If they had plans for him to be back on top in the near future, they'd make him a fair offer and lock him up for the rest of his career.

And saying that he's "as good as he was in 2004" is like saying John Cena's ring skills aren't progressing as well as one might have hoped - it's irrelevant to how WWE will use him. The bottom line is that Benoit was given the title in 2004 and while he did an admirable job as champion, he didn't set business on fire, and I can't see WWE giving him any more than a brief run in the main event in the future, at best. I can't prove that he'll never be pushed to the moon, but if you'd like to make a wager on it, I'd be happy to oblige.
BORED_IN_KY
Loukanika
Level: 7

Posts: 7/7
EXP: 1076
For next: 372

Since: 24.8.05
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 3304 days
Last activity: 3297 days
#51 Posted on 8.11.05 1504.59
Reposted on: 8.11.12 1508.10
Something everyone is missing about the whole contract dispute concept is that the "offer" is only a guaranteed downside. Your downside can be $75,000, $150,000, $250,000, or whatever -- either way, your BOOKING decides your true income. Only time downside comes into play is if you're sidelined with an injury in July, but made your downside by February (for example). That would mean no more checks from July until the in-ring return (or the next tax year when downside would "reset"). By cutting the downside, it likely won't actually affect his income in the end. As mentioned earlier in this thread (I believe), many of these guys were signed to inflated downsides as a way to seduce them from WCW. With no "true" competition, WWE feels they can bring those downsides back down. In my opinion, it is a smart business move for WWE -- although I'm sure it also feels like a slap in the face to the Christians & Benoits of the world. It in essence says, "you're not worth as much to us today as you were 5 years ago."
Deputy Marshall
Liverwurst
Level: 66

Posts: 387/1148
EXP: 2398753
For next: 63111

Since: 28.6.04
From: Troy, NY

Since last post: 41 days
Last activity: 28 days
#52 Posted on 8.11.05 1534.37
Reposted on: 8.11.12 1536.51
    Originally posted by BORED_IN_KY
    In my opinion, it is a smart business move for WWE -- although I'm sure it also feels like a slap in the face to the Christians & Benoits of the world. It in essence says, "you're not worth as much to us today as you were 5 years ago."


In perhaps another business or industry, I might agree with you that it's a smart move. However, in this industry, where locker room morale/politics can really make or break a company (please see: WCW), trimming the guaranteed downside and sending the message that they don't value you as much and consider you dispensable can be pretty detrimental not just to wrestler egos, but the success of the company. Happy wrestlers make happier fans.

What we also need to take into consideration is that some who have been (or will be) lowballed might be more than a little bothered by the fact that the money they're no longer guaranteed if injured while on the job is now being invested in Kamala, Tatanka, and "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan so they can make occassional appearances in Eugene segments. While I think it's a nice little charity that the WWE has going, if they can't afford to keep their active roster on the same pay scale then they shouldn't be offering the Legends Contracts.

Not to be mean about it, but if the company's suffering that much then they shouldn't be investing in something with arguably no long-term potential.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 8.11.05 1638)
komarkaze
Mettwurst
Level: 29

Posts: 118/159
EXP: 132058
For next: 15828

Since: 9.1.03
From: VA

Since last post: 2230 days
Last activity: 2227 days
#53 Posted on 8.11.05 1559.15
Reposted on: 8.11.12 1559.16
    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet


    I agree with what you're saying, but the problem is that these contracts the WWE offers aren't short-term ones. They tend to be 3-5 years long as a rule. Sure, the fans see him as a potential maineventer *now*, but could you say the same thing in 2009?

    I see the WWE's point in reducing the offered amount in the contract, as it makes sense that the guy's best days are behind him and he's not getting any younger. However, personally I think that that should apply to the Hardcore Holly's of the world. Benoit is on a different level status wise right now. Either give Benoit a shorter contract at an in-between price, or else extend his current one for a year or something. Wait for him to say that it's time to cut back. I can't see him doing this forever as the wear and tear will only get harder to deal with with age.


    Tribal Prophet


Chris Benoit is not seen as a potential main-eventer; he is a main-eventer. He's been in the main event of countless Raw/Smackdown shows and PPVs. People believe in him and if WWE wants to give him the ball again, people will follow. If you want to write him off because he's going to be older and more deteriorated, how do you explain Austin's success after his neck injury? He drew even more money despite changing his wrestling style as a result of his injury. If you want to say Benoit isn't good on a mic, then you underestimate why people are into Benoit in the first place. WWE fans know he can't talk, but they know he's the best technical wrestler in the Fed, and any match involving himself is guaranteed to be good (unless it's under 25 seconds). Guys like Undertaker or Goldberg were over with the crowd even though they barely said anything, and it was people wanted to see them kick ass. Benoit isn't over 6'7, but he's been promoted as a bonafide ass kicker who can beat any one of any size.

Benoit can be used in any capacity the company wants of him, and that likely won't change in the next five years. He has not showed signs of slowing down.
Quezzy
Knackwurst
Level: 107

Posts: 1940/3268
EXP: 12816422
For next: 274931

Since: 6.1.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#54 Posted on 8.11.05 1639.52
Reposted on: 8.11.12 1639.59
Some people might think that Benoit's days of being a champion are over and that is purpose is now to make others look good. While that might be true let's not forget that the Carlitos and Snitskeys of the world aren't the only ones who need help in the ring. WWE continues to push younger talent that isn't so great in the ring like Cena, Batista, Orton and even Masters is getting too close to the main event for comfort. So it is possible for Benoit to be the guy they call on to make people look good, and still do it in the main event. Remember the reason Benoit went to Raw, and eventually won the World Title, was supposedly because Triple H wanted him in the match to make him look good. I mean really, besides Angle, HBK and Eddie what main eventer couldn't use Benoit's help to have a good match? And even those guys matches go from really good to great when matched up against Benoit. So it's possible for him to be a guy who makes people look good AND still be a main eventer.
ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE
Pages: Prev 1 2 3Thread ahead: RAW #650 11/7/05
Next thread: Lesnar-- could he conceivably return?
Previous thread: TNA's Primetime Special
(1414 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Benoit... Here's The DoorRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.301 seconds.