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The 7 - Baseball - God bless Josh Paul
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The Big Kat
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#1 Posted on 12.10.05 2222.21
Reposted on: 12.10.12 2222.23
Thanks to his not tagging AJ Pierzynski tonight on a strikeout in the dirt, the White Sox steal a victory to even the series. His not throwing down to 2nd on the steal by Ozuna helped, too. I'm a huge Sox fan, and I thought the close-up replay showed the ball in the dirt. The opinion is of course biased. But even Little League catchers know you always tag the guy if it's even close to being in the dirt. It doesn't take any extra effort, and flipping th ball to the mound is just extraneous.

Glad to see Joe Crede coming through again after striking out in the 9th last night. The series is very interesting now as it moves to the place the Sox have hated for years, the West Coast. Hopefully Garland finds his 1st half stuff, and the Sox bats wake up by Friday.
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Peter The Hegemon
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#2 Posted on 12.10.05 2326.06
Reposted on: 12.10.12 2326.18
    Originally posted by The Big Kat
    Thanks to his not tagging AJ Pierzynski tonight on a strikeout in the dirt, the White Sox steal a victory to even the series. His not throwing down to 2nd on the steal by Ozuna helped, too. I'm a huge Sox fan, and I thought the close-up replay showed the ball in the dirt.


I thought the replay showed that Paul caught it, but in any event it clearly showed the umpire calling Pierzynski out. That's a ridiculous situation that shouldn't be allowed to stand.

This is why there should be instant replay. That would have allowed the umps to correct the call.
messenoir
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#3 Posted on 12.10.05 2335.01
Reposted on: 12.10.12 2338.45
It did hit the dirt, but after the caught it I thought. What do the rules say about trapping the ball against the ground?

In football, you can't trap the ball.
spf
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#4 Posted on 13.10.05 0001.31
Reposted on: 13.10.12 0003.02
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
      Originally posted by The Big Kat
      Thanks to his not tagging AJ Pierzynski tonight on a strikeout in the dirt, the White Sox steal a victory to even the series. His not throwing down to 2nd on the steal by Ozuna helped, too. I'm a huge Sox fan, and I thought the close-up replay showed the ball in the dirt.


    I thought the replay showed that Paul caught it, but in any event it clearly showed the umpire calling Pierzynski out. That's a ridiculous situation that shouldn't be allowed to stand.

    This is why there should be instant replay. That would have allowed the umps to correct the call.

The ump never called AJ out. The ump made the same strike motion he made the entire game, doing the fist pump move. Which was correct, because it was a strike. You can argue whether the ump made the right call about it being a dropped 3rd strike or not (I think he trapped it, but it's very close), but Josh Paul, having just entered the game, did not pay attention closely enough to umpire's verbal calls, and thus did not complete the play.
drjayphd
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#5 Posted on 13.10.05 0005.53
Reposted on: 13.10.12 0006.38
    Originally posted by messenoir
    It did hit the dirt, but after the caught it I thought. What do the rules say about trapping the ball against the ground?

    In football, you can't trap the ball.


Nope, I just saw it and it looked like the pitch bounced. No trap, should've been out.
Sec19Row53
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#6 Posted on 13.10.05 0921.28
Reposted on: 13.10.12 0921.37
Considering the catcher can't SEE the umpire behind him, the home plate umpire HAS TO verbalize that call.

Plain and simple, the home plate ump choked. He reacted to Pierzinski's second cue (running to first), not his first (stepping toward the dugout).

Whether or not this changed the outcome of the game will never be known. The Sox may have won in extra innings. However, that's where they should have been playing.
spf
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#7 Posted on 13.10.05 0933.19
Reposted on: 13.10.12 0933.33
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    Considering the catcher can't SEE the umpire behind him, the home plate umpire HAS TO verbalize that call.

    Plain and simple, the home plate ump choked. He reacted to Pierzinski's second cue (running to first), not his first (stepping toward the dugout).

    Whether or not this changed the outcome of the game will never be known. The Sox may have won in extra innings. However, that's where they should have been playing.

The lack of verbalization should have been the cue for Paul. If at no point the ump ever said the word "Out", then Paul should have continued playing. When in doubt, the onus is on the player to continue playing, just like in football you play until you hear a whistle, whether or not you think the play should be over. Paul did not do that. If he simply waits 2 seconds to hear the ump say "Out" or just reaches up with the mitt and taps Pierzynski on the shoulder with it, the whole point is moot. Notice it was Pierzynski, the other catcher, who after listening to the ump the entire game noticed the lack of the verbal "Out" call, running to first and not conceding the play when he realized it was never called.
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#8 Posted on 13.10.05 1024.53
Reposted on: 13.10.12 1025.20
I only caught the tail end of this, but on Baseball Tonight they showed a clip from a Giants-Red Sox game in '04 (I think) where this same thing happened, only Bronson Arroyo was the batter and Pierzynski was the CATCHER, and they alluded to the idea that Pierzynski had remembered that very play, which is why he started toward first. So Pierzynski's probably the only guy in the ballpark who is even thinking of running at that point, instead of heading to the dugout.

EDIT: Found the quote on ESPN.com:

Mr. A.J. Pierzynski, the batter on the scene and a veteran catcher himself, will now submit his expert opinion.

"Not every umpire does that. There's no protocol. The same thing happened to me in a game in San Francisco last year. I caught it, the umpire didn't say anything and I went out to the mound. Me and Jason Schmidt were talking and we look over and the guy was standing on first base. ...

"It was the same situation when Garret Anderson was up earlier in the game. I thought we caught him, I threw the ball around and the umpire said it hit the ground. It was a foul tip.''


(edited by JayJayDean on 13.10.05 0828)
TheOldMan
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#9 Posted on 13.10.05 1050.19
Reposted on: 13.10.12 1050.59
All I can offer is back in the day, I umped some Little League games. I had a separate hand motion for a strike (arm pointing out at 90), and for an out (fist pump with fist approx. next to my right ear). The Angels have something of a beef in as much as the home plate ump appears to make MLB's "out" signal. It also looked like he waited to see the body language of Paul and Pierzinski before making the fist - which unfortunately for him was just as A.J. broke for first.

But back in Little League, The junior levels I started at had no dropped third strike rule, so my verbal call was "Strike three, and out" regardless. When I reached the level where it mattered, I split up the verbal call as needed. So on the play in question last night, if my ruling was the ball was in the dirt, I would have said "Strike three", and waited for the tag or throw to first to say "and out". Pierzinski seemed to be saying after the game that he didn't hear the umps' verbal out call, so he continued to play. I didn't actually get from the umpire's interview that the ump has a consistent verbal out call, or what the ump actually said (or didn't say) while appearing to make a hand motion calling the batter out.

But the bottom line is that the Angels' catcher had his back to the ump, and should have been relying on the verbal call all the way, presuming there was a consistent indicator from the home plate ump. So too bad for the Angels.

And shame on the umpires for not having worked out some consistent signals/commands by now - which is likely left over from the attitude of the flawed umps union of the 70's and 80's. They've been getting better since the commissioner's office broke up the league offices, and put all the umps into one pool. Anyone remember when every sports writer was crying for the NFL to hire full-time referees? Guess they fixed that one on their own.

P.S. The Sox have a fighting chance now, but this was the second game in a row they were out-executed, which should be of great concern to Ozzie. Seems to me that every time a situation happens with short rest, all the experts duly report that (in this case) the Angels are at a huge disadvantage, and most of the time, the team with momentum and adrenaline beats the well-rested team that comes out a bit flat. So I wasn't surprised by the first game "upset", or that the Angels bats went dead in game two, when the pressure was off, and they could finally relax a bit. Not that it couldn't have been Buherle's greatness, but that was the game for the Angels to relax.

Now we'll really see if the fatigue sets in.
It's False
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#10 Posted on 13.10.05 1623.05
Reposted on: 13.10.12 1626.24
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    P.S. The Sox have a fighting chance now, but this was the second game in a row they were out-executed, which should be of great concern to Ozzie. Seems to me that every time a situation happens with short rest, all the experts duly report that (in this case) the Angels are at a huge disadvantage, and most of the time, the team with momentum and adrenaline beats the well-rested team that comes out a bit flat. So I wasn't surprised by the first game "upset", or that the Angels bats went dead in game two, when the pressure was off, and they could finally relax a bit. Not that it couldn't have been Buherle's greatness, but that was the game for the Angels to relax.

    Now we'll really see if the fatigue sets in.


After game 2, there shouldn't be any more talk of fatigue for the Angels. I do agree that the White Sox have been outplayed in both games, which is why despite the bad call last night, it's nothing to REALLY cry over unless the White Sox win the series in 7. The Angels have been the better team in both games, which means one bad call shouldn't decide it all. If the White Sox offense keeps sleepwalking through the rest of the series, then the Angels shouldn't have any problem taking it in 6.

Although the Angels bats also need to wake up. Mike Scioscia said it best that if the offense was there, then the call would never have decided the game. This is why Scioscia's the best manager in baseball today, because while he's angry at the call, he knows when to stand up and say that the team didn't get it done and they'd be ready for the next game.

Having said that, the Angels had better be ready for Freddy Garcia in Game 3, because he's been a total machine on the road.

(edited by It's False on 13.10.05 1423)
Deputy Marshall
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#11 Posted on 13.10.05 1725.44
Reposted on: 13.10.12 1726.04
The replay they showed during the Fox live feed had a much higher framerate, and it was very clear that the ball went UP into the glove after having descended previously. Now, unless Escobar has gotten so miraculously good as a pitcher that he's defied the laws of physics, then the ball was in play. I know the consensus among most people posting here is in line with that, but I wanted to point it out (the framerate) as to why so many people might be now insisting it was simply caught, having only seen the taped replay this morning.

I'm not so sure that Pierzynski did it remembering the incident in the Giants/Sox game, because it appeared as if he was going to just walk off before looking at the dugout, as if someone was giving him the cue to run.

That being said, even though the ump didn't shout "out" he also didn't verbally indicate that the ball was in play. Not that he's required to, but maybe because of situations like this he should be.
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#12 Posted on 13.10.05 1745.42
Reposted on: 13.10.12 1746.13
    Originally posted by Deputy Marshall
    I'm not so sure that Pierzynski did it remembering the incident in the Giants/Sox game, because it appeared as if he was going to just walk off before looking at the dugout, as if someone was giving him the cue to run.

    That being said, even though the ump didn't shout "out" he also didn't verbally indicate that the ball was in play. Not that he's required to, but maybe because of situations like this he should be.


Maybe it's just his strike call, but it seemed the ump was pointing The Phenomenal A.J. Pierzynski (forget the ESPNews anchor who uses that nickname, but it's one of the few of its ilk that works) over to first. Maybe he was on his way, realized he didn't hear an out call, and took off? No need to drag Yankees starter Brandon Arroyo (thanks, McCarver!) into this.
messenoir
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#13 Posted on 13.10.05 1805.05
Reposted on: 13.10.12 1805.28
I think the lesson here is you always keep playing if you're not sure the play is dead. The Sox did, the Angels didn't, the Sox win.

And I want the Sox to lose, because their fans are so unsufferable (hi spf:-))
Peter The Hegemon
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#14 Posted on 14.10.05 0411.28
Reposted on: 14.10.12 0413.34
    Originally posted by Deputy Marshall
    The replay they showed during the Fox live feed had a much higher framerate, and it was very clear that the ball went UP into the glove after having descended previously.


It bounced up from the webbing of his glove into the palm.

The Old Man makes an excellent point: there ought to be standardized signals. Yes, the ump was making the fist after every strike--but he ALSO used the fist to indicate a tag-out after a dropped third strike at least once.
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#15 Posted on 14.10.05 0654.51
Reposted on: 14.10.12 0655.09
The White Sox caught a break and capitalized on it. Even reaching on the play, it was runner on 1st with 2 outs. Escobar should get out of the inning clean. Plus, tie game on the road with the Angels having gone through most of the bullpen while Chicago had everyone made it advantage White Sox anyway. If it was 2-1 Angels and this play happened on the 27th out and it was followed by a 2 run home run, then the Angels really would have a beef.
I wonder if there will be a little something extra from FOX in the umpires envelope this week, as he brought controversy to the series, which will increase ratings, plus 1-1 going to wherever the Angels play this week is still a competetive series. Angels go home up 2-0 with the next 3 at home and America is off of this series until at least Game 5.
spf
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#16 Posted on 14.10.05 0946.51
Reposted on: 14.10.12 0948.13
(deleted by spf on 14.10.05 1008)
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#17 Posted on 15.10.05 0010.57
Reposted on: 15.10.12 0011.01
    Originally posted by drjayphd
    No need to drag Yankees starter Brandon Arroyo (thanks, McCarver!) into this.


I was watching with the sound off for most of it because I was at work. Did McCarver call him Brandon Arroyo AGAIN? If so, somebody really needs to either a.) Fire McCarver, because he's lost it or b.) tell him that it's NOT BRANDON.
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#18 Posted on 15.10.05 2110.01
Reposted on: 15.10.12 2110.19
Well, this certainly deserves to be the de-facto ALCS thread now. End of the 6th, Game 4 - White Sox 6, Angels 2

* Possible missed call on check swing/strike 3 on Konerko, no call - Three run bomb.

* No doubt missed catchers' interference by AJ (who else) Pierzinski against Finley, no call - inning ending double play, no runs.

* No doubt missed pickoff call at first on Podsednik, no call - two out single, another run for the Sox.

Even as someone rooting for the Sox, wow. This score holds up, they may need the National Guard at Angels Stadium tomorrow. Can you really blame Finley for looking back to ask for the call? It wasn't like he barely brushed the mitt.

And Pierzinski is officially the Bill Laimbeer memorial pain-in-the-ass player you absolutely hate - unless he's on your team. Can't think of a Baseball example except maybe Larry Bowa, back when he was playing?
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#19 Posted on 15.10.05 2219.55
Reposted on: 15.10.12 2221.13
Wow, three complete games in a row. With Contreras going 8 2/3 on Tuesday, Neal Cotts' 2/3 of an inning accounts for all of the bullpen appearances for the ChiSox. Four incredible performances in a row by Sox pitchers.

And as much as all of the praise goes to the Sox for playing like the 99 win team they were this year, the Angels have had more than their share of bad luck. The dropped third strike (which I think was a good call, but still), all of the travel with no rest between series plus having Colon out for the LCS and Washburn at less than 100%. Like I said, the credit goes to Chicago, but LA has had it rough.
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#20 Posted on 16.10.05 1546.19
Reposted on: 16.10.12 1546.49
    Originally posted by TheOldMan
    Well, this certainly deserves to be the de-facto ALCS thread now. End of the 6th, Game 4 - White Sox 6, Angels 2

    * Possible missed call on check swing/strike 3 on Konerko, no call - Three run bomb.

    * No doubt missed catchers' interference by AJ (who else) Pierzinski against Finley, no call - inning ending double play, no runs.

    * No doubt missed pickoff call at first on Podsednik, no call - two out single, another run for the Sox.

    Even as someone rooting for the Sox, wow. This score holds up, they may need the National Guard at Angels Stadium tomorrow. Can you really blame Finley for looking back to ask for the call? It wasn't like he barely brushed the mitt.


Say what you will about the Angels' starting pitchers being completely banged up (especially compared to the seemingly bulletproof Buehrle, Garland, and Garcia. And here I thought Contreras was the one to fear.), but these umpires aren't helping matters at all. The way the Sox have been playing and the Angels offense has dropped dead, I'm pretty sure Anaheim can drop this series on their own without the umpires helping Chicago, thank you very much.
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