The W
Views: 99412122
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
2.10.07 0535
The 7 - Baseball - Cardinals Question (Or Am I Just a Homer?)
This thread has 1 referral leading to it
Register and log in to post!
(272 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (19 total)
Rudoublesedoublel
Potato korv
Level: 55

Posts: 329/691
EXP: 1239376
For next: 74822

Since: 2.1.02
From: Kentucky - Home of the 8 time NCAA Champ Wildcats

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 3 days
#1 Posted on 15.9.05 1008.56
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1008.58
I'll admit it up front - I'm a Cardinals fan. That's why I have the question that I have - I don't know if I'm capable of being unbiased and would like some additional perspective.

Is Albert Pujols being overlooked by the press as they tout MVP candidates?

Is Chris Carpenter being overlooked by the press as they tout Cy Young candidates?

I can understand that Jones is putting up monster numbers in Atlanta and that Atlanta should/will win their division. But shouldn't the fact that Pujols' protection has greatly dwindled with injuries to Rolen and Walker (not to mention Sanders) count for something? But, I can live with Jones being touted for MVP. On the other hand some are still pushing for Derek Lee? Shouldn't similar numbers with 20 more wins count for something?

As for the Cy Young - I can understand the arguments for Clemens and Willis. I just don't think that I've seen as many arguments for Carpenter. Is Carpenter being overlooked?

The Cardinals will/should have the best record in baseball this year. They've had many injuries. Carpenter and Pujols are key reasons the Cardinals are winning - are they being overlooked by the media or am I just a homer?
Promote this thread!
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan
Level: 109

Posts: 1727/3428
EXP: 13694973
For next: 264717

Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 51 days
Last activity: 51 days
#2 Posted on 15.9.05 1026.59
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1027.03
    Originally posted by Rudoublesedoublel
    I'll admit it up front - I'm a Cardinals fan. That's why I have the question that I have - I don't know if I'm capable of being unbiased and would like some additional perspective.

    Is Albert Pujols being overlooked by the press as they tout MVP candidates?

    Is Chris Carpenter being overlooked by the press as they tout Cy Young candidates?

    I can understand that Jones is putting up monster numbers in Atlanta and that Atlanta should/will win their division. But shouldn't the fact that Pujols' protection has greatly dwindled with injuries to Rolen and Walker (not to mention Sanders) count for something? But, I can live with Jones being touted for MVP. On the other hand some are still pushing for Derek Lee? Shouldn't similar numbers with 20 more wins count for something?

    As for the Cy Young - I can understand the arguments for Clemens and Willis. I just don't think that I've seen as many arguments for Carpenter. Is Carpenter being overlooked?

    The Cardinals will/should have the best record in baseball this year. They've had many injuries. Carpenter and Pujols are key reasons the Cardinals are winning - are they being overlooked by the media or am I just a homer?


I think the Cardinals don't get as much attention because they aren't in the race. I don't remember the last point when the NL Central was in any kind of doubt. So while Atlanta, Houston, Florida, Philadelphia and even the Mets spent most of the season in a pennant race, playing in important games with national attention, the Cardinals were relegated to "Oh yeah, St. Louis again. What else is new?" status.

Carpenter I think is severely underrated, but I also think it's understandable seeing as how this is his first dominant season (though he was very good last year). Actually, I think Carpenter should win the Cy Young while, if the Astros make the playoffs, Clemens should win MVP, if that makes any sense. Carpenter thus far has put together one of the greatest seasons by a starting pitcher since the mound's height was altered after the 1968 season. Clemens, on the other hand, completely changes his team when he pitches. I do agree though, that Carpenter has seemingly flown under the radar until very recently he started getting some attention.

As for Pujols, he suffers from being on the best team in baseball. The guy seriously could go down as one of the greatest hitters that ever lived, but he just doesn't really seem to be all over the press like Ortiz, Jones, Ramirez or some other guys are. He has set or is challenging all kinds of records, and he's only played five years. I think it all comes back to him never being put in a clutch situation in a meaningful game, because the Cards basically clinched their division in July. Really the only chance he got in that kind of climate was the postseason last year, and we know how that turned out for the Cardinals.
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 64

Posts: 770/1091
EXP: 2198606
For next: 15503

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2820 days
Last activity: 2548 days
#3 Posted on 15.9.05 1121.52
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1121.54

    Is Chris Carpenter being overlooked by the press as they tout Cy Young candidates?


In a word, yes. No doubt Clemens is having a dominant season even if he is 12-7. You just can't overlook that type of ERA. On the other hand, you can't just look at his ERA. If you look at fielding independent ERA, they're about tied, or they were a week or so ago when I last checked. And then Carpenter leads in many of the peripherals stats - IP, W, CG, Sho, K/9, BB/9, W/L%, IP/GS, etc. The man is 21-4! Yes, wins aren't he sole indicator of how well a pitcher pitches, but he's earned every one of those wins.

He should be the Cy Young, but he won't be or isn't as of now. It's quite ironic because last year when Clemens won the Cy, Randy Johnson was clearly the better pitcher in all areas except W-L. Clemens was 18-4 for a great team which gave him the edge over Johnson who was 16-14 for a horrible team. Now it's the exact opposite - Clemens is 12-7 for a team that gives him no support at all while Carpenter has a vastly better record yet Clemens is still going to get the award.

Dontrelle Willis would also be a candidate if not for those three bad starts in a row near the break. His numbers still stack up well with the other two guys even with those starts. I can't wait for a possible Carpenter/Willis matchup in game one of the NLDS. Awesome.

I'd love to see Pujols get the MVP because I like the guy a lot, but I won't cry for him if he doesn't get it. At the rate he's going, it will be one of the game's greatest disappointments if he doesn't one day have at least four or five of them.
Sec19Row53
Lap cheong
Level: 78

Posts: 727/1569
EXP: 4240621
For next: 141624

Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

Since last post: 21 hours
Last activity: 17 hours
Y!:
#4 Posted on 15.9.05 1127.51
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1127.55
Every time *I* hear discussions of the MVP race on either a national or local level, I hear Carpenter's name at or near the top of the list for Cy Young, and Pujol's name at or near the top of the list for MVP.

Who have you heard (in the press) that has left them off the list? Or continues to push D. Lee?
StaggerLee
Scrapple
Level: 140

Posts: 2699/6316
EXP: 33225847
For next: 60640

Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 5 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
#5 Posted on 15.9.05 1145.10
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1145.49
Carpenter will win the Cy Young.

Pujols seems to be the guy who is always going to put up stellar numbers, yet somebody will always have a season just a bit better than him. Bonds for the last couple of seasons, and Andruw Jones this season.
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 64

Posts: 774/1091
EXP: 2198606
For next: 15503

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2820 days
Last activity: 2548 days
#6 Posted on 15.9.05 1148.39
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1149.35
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    Every time *I* hear discussions of the MVP race on either a national or local level, I hear Carpenter's name at or near the top of the list for Cy Young, and Pujol's name at or near the top of the list for MVP.

    Who have you heard (in the press) that has left them off the list? Or continues to push D. Lee?


I think that "overlooked" might be the wrong term at least insofar as there aren't Cy Young or MVP discussions without mentioning Carpenter or Pujols. But for instance, Jayson Stark on espn.com wrote an article about a week ago about how Clemens should be the Cy Young. The premise seemed to be "Of course he's the Cy Young, look at his ERA and how old he is! This is one of the greatest seasons ever!" It just seems like Clemens is going to win the award by acclamation without people looking deeper at the numbers. But then again, maybe I'll be plesantly surprised with the voting results.

(edited by BigSteve on 15.9.05 1248)
Sec19Row53
Lap cheong
Level: 78

Posts: 728/1569
EXP: 4240621
For next: 141624

Since: 2.1.02
From: Oconomowoc, WI

Since last post: 21 hours
Last activity: 17 hours
Y!:
#7 Posted on 15.9.05 1206.09
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1207.08
In support of my previous statement - Dan Patrick just led off his show asking who the NL MVP should be - Jones, Pujols or Lee?

I'll be curious why D. Lee is still getting a mention - the team's performance has to come into play here. There's no way that he should come before Pujols or Jones.

PS - Sorry for the "real-time" post

PPS - Pujols isn't in the spell checker :-)
PeterStork
Sujuk
Level: 64

Posts: 418/1007
EXP: 2175113
For next: 38996

Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 20 days
Last activity: 6 days
#8 Posted on 15.9.05 1210.43
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1211.45
.335 > .277

Don't worry about Pujols. He's got the MVP sewn up. Andruw may have some dingers and more RBI but the difference in batting average is too large to overlook. Plus the fact that Albert is in the top ten in so many statistical categories that Rafael wants some of his juice. Jones is not having a better season, he just hits more home runs.

If nothing else, we have Adrian Beltre to thank for Pujols' 2005 NL MVP Award. Last year the writers stupidly put Beltre second ahead of Pujols' third (yeah, yeah, I know votes were split between 5 and 27 and 15) and look at the year Adrian had! POUNDING it in Seattle!

They won't deny Pujols respek again.

As for Carp: it's close. Roger should have more wins. He has an unbelieveably low ERA, particularly on the road. If Pujols doesn't win MVP, you will hear me scream. I mean this literally - and I do not misuse the term there. You will hear me scream. Carp, not as much. I'll be disappointed, but you can make a strong case for Clemens, and I think if anyone else had Roger's stats we'd be clamoring for him to win despite his poor run support, it's just we don't want to see the Same. Old. Guy. win yet another Cy Young Award.

Carp or Clemens, either one is good, though I'd obviously prefer the former.
Rudoublesedoublel
Potato korv
Level: 55

Posts: 330/691
EXP: 1239376
For next: 74822

Since: 2.1.02
From: Kentucky - Home of the 8 time NCAA Champ Wildcats

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 3 days
#9 Posted on 15.9.05 1402.08
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1403.23
    Originally posted by Sec19Row53
    In support of my previous statement - Dan Patrick just led off his show asking who the NL MVP should be - Jones, Pujols or Lee?

    I'll be curious why D. Lee is still getting a mention - the team's performance has to come into play here. There's no way that he should come before Pujols or Jones.

    PS - Sorry for the "real-time" post

    PPS - Pujols isn't in the spell checker :-)


I guess part of my "point" was in agreement with yours - why is D. Lee still being mentioned? I guess that's why I perceive a slight to Pujols.

As to your earlier point, I guess that most of the things that stand out to me are favoring Clemens or Willis for Cy.

I also think that I am just a homer .... :-)
TheOldMan
Landjager
Level: 61

Posts: 7/932
EXP: 1854568
For next: 22039

Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

Since last post: 93 days
Last activity: 12 days
#10 Posted on 15.9.05 1646.27
Reposted on: 15.9.12 1647.13
Even as a Cub fan, I don't hear Lee getting seriously mentioned as MVP, other than he's had a career year, and should place high in the voting. But not being pushed as the winner.

Pujols (who might well beat out A-Rod for best untainted player of this era when it's all added up) is getting slighted here, at least to a degree because of the potent overall Cardinal attack, and the fact that they lapped the Central Division so early.

I imagine the argument would be that Jones is carrying a team of 'nobodies' in Atlanta, particularly with Chipper missing so much time. And his hot streak went along with the Braves charging into a strong division lead, in the best overall division on the senior circuit. Pujols, while having a superior overall bat, seems less vital to the lineup than Jones. And Jones has the defense as an intangible.

Carpenter is probably getting jobbed even worse, 21-4 is every bit as impressive as it sounds. Clemens has the whole 'past history' thing going, and the fame from pitching in the Northeast media capitol all those years, while Willis was a rookie sensation, and gets good pub for that, and his goofy-looking delivery. Carpenter's never had the national attention before this season. I think Carpenter only gets the nod here if neither the 'Stros or Marlins make the wild card.

Says here the winner is ... Bubba Smith. I mean - it says you're not just a homer here.


(Why yes, I do like saying things like "senior circuit")
(Watching the season premiere of Survivor rather than see the Redbirds clinch at Wrigley - heh)
(Still will offer congrats to your team ;)
Quezzy
Knackwurst
Level: 106

Posts: 1884/3252
EXP: 12647881
For next: 24103

Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 11 hours
Last activity: 11 hours
AIM:  
#11 Posted on 16.9.05 0201.53
Reposted on: 16.9.12 0203.58
I don't know what yall are talking about, every time I hear a conversation about the Cy Young, Chris Carpenter is always the one picked to win it. So I don't know what makes anyone think he is being overlooked. Should he win? I don't know, I think something should be said about the fact that Dontrelle Willis has won 6 consecutive starts while in the midst of a playoff race.

I DO think Andruw Jones is the MVP, I don't know how you can argue against it, he single handedly carried the Braves for a portion of the season. They've been playing with nobodies like Pete Orr, Andy Marte, and Kelly Johnson, Chipper missed 53 games, and they have a 80 year old playing first base. I know the Cardinals have had position players injured too, but they have had Carpenter/Marquis/Mulder/Suppan/Morris chugging along all season. I mean really, has any team had less injury problems at starting pitching than the Cards? They all started 27 games or more. The Braves on the other hand have had pitching injuries in addition to all their other problems, Hudson has missed part of the season, Hampton has missed most of the season, only 2 of their pitchers have started 27 games. But while the Braves had nobodies and has beens in the field and injury problems in the starting pitching, not to mention a horrendous bullpen for most of the season, Andruw Jones was carrying them to first place in toughest division in baseball.

Pujols is great, the best player in baseball in my opinion but I think the MVP should be given to the player most valuable, hence the name MOST VALUABLE player and I don't see how you can say Pujols is more valuable than Andruw Jones. I mean without Pujols the Cards are MAYBE second in their division behind the Astros. Without Andruw Jones the Braves are last in their division.
PeterStork
Sujuk
Level: 64

Posts: 419/1007
EXP: 2175113
For next: 38996

Since: 25.1.02
From: Chicagoland with Hoosiers, or "The Region"

Since last post: 20 days
Last activity: 6 days
#12 Posted on 16.9.05 1200.32
Reposted on: 16.9.12 1203.43
    Originally posted by Quezzy
    Pujols is great, the best player in baseball in my opinion but I think the MVP should be given to the player most valuable, hence the name MOST VALUABLE player and I don't see how you can say Pujols is more valuable than Andruw Jones. I mean without Pujols the Cards are MAYBE second in their division behind the Astros. Without Andruw Jones the Braves are last in their division.


The only reason the award is called "MVP" is to differentiate it from "best hitter." When the Chalmers Auto Company started the award in the 1910s, it went to the batting champ, but you could manipulate average toward the end of the season - so they changed it to "Most Valuable" and MLB later picked up the award and ran with it.

Don't take things so literally.
Merc
Potato korv
Level: 54

Posts: 360/680
EXP: 1209830
For next: 24047

Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1267 days
Last activity: 1246 days
#13 Posted on 16.9.05 1949.06
Reposted on: 16.9.12 1951.46
MVP should be the guy, if all other things were equal, that you'd want to have on your team.
To me, that'd be Pujols, but if Pujols gets hit by a bus, then I'd take Jones in a second.
StaggerLee
Scrapple
Level: 140

Posts: 2704/6316
EXP: 33225847
For next: 60640

Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 5 hours
Last activity: 1 hour
#14 Posted on 17.9.05 2132.12
Reposted on: 17.9.12 2132.18
    Originally posted by Quezzy
    I DO think Andruw Jones is the MVP, I don't know how you can argue against it, he single handedly carried the Braves for a portion of the season. They've been playing with nobodies like Pete Orr, Andy Marte, and Kelly Johnson, Chipper missed 53 games, and they have a 80 year old playing first base. I know the Cardinals have had position players injured too, but they have had Carpenter/Marquis/Mulder/Suppan/Morris chugging along all season. I mean really, has any team had less injury problems at starting pitching than the Cards? They all started 27 games or more.

    Pujols is great, the best player in baseball in my opinion but I think the MVP should be given to the player most valuable, hence the name MOST VALUABLE player and I don't see how you can say Pujols is more valuable than Andruw Jones. I mean without Pujols the Cards are MAYBE second in their division behind the Astros. Without Andruw Jones the Braves are last in their division.


Rolen out for the majority of the season. Larry Walker having a poor season (by his standards) and missing time to injury as well. Jim Edmunds having an off year (by his standards). Starting Catcher missing most of the heart of the summer. Second baseman spening time on the DL. Reggie Freiking Sanders starting in Left. Doesnt sound like a stellar lineup of all stars to me.

I dont get how a teams PITCHING staff has any impact on OFFENSIVE statistics, in relation to MVP consideration. Its pointless. If having a great staff aids you in offensive production, why doesnt Clemens have more run support?
wmatistic
Andouille
Level: 87

Posts: 192/2171
EXP: 6312930
For next: 79869

Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 19 hours
AIM:  
#15 Posted on 21.9.05 2322.39
Reposted on: 21.9.12 2326.56
I live in St. Louis too, but listen to ESPN radio for the most part and every show on there lately has been saying the Cy goes to Carpenter no question at this point so I'm not sure why you would see him as being looked over.

Oh and the other thread is closed, but there will be no implosion of Busch Stadium. They are so far ahead of schedule that they are going the safe route and will use a wrecking ball. The winner now gets to push a button to release it for the first swing I believe.
Quezzy
Knackwurst
Level: 106

Posts: 1890/3252
EXP: 12647881
For next: 24103

Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 11 hours
Last activity: 11 hours
AIM:  
#16 Posted on 22.9.05 1305.08
Reposted on: 22.9.12 1306.27
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I dont get how a teams PITCHING staff has any impact on OFFENSIVE statistics, in relation to MVP consideration. Its pointless. If having a great staff aids you in offensive production, why doesnt Clemens have more run support?



I'm not saying the Cardinals pitching staff produces offensive stats for them. What I'm saying is that the Cardinals pitching staff is so good it's WINNING GAMES regardless of the Cardinals offensive production. The Braves haven't had that luxury with their pitching staff, therefore Andruw has to do that much more for his team to win.

As for the Cardinals lineup, I said I understand they have problems, but Andruw is winning games for a lineup and pitching staff that has been injured. Pujols is just playing for a lineup. And you know what, yes Edmonds is having a subpar season, yet he STILL is having a better season than the second best player in the Braves lineup so even having a subpar Edmonds has been more help that Jones has gotten most of the season.
Eddie Famous
Andouille
Level: 90

Posts: 1288/2182
EXP: 6970740
For next: 217896

Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 313 days
Last activity: 307 days
#17 Posted on 24.9.05 1108.31
Reposted on: 24.9.12 1108.40
Pujols has been the best player in the National League for some time now, but people for some reason like to find reasons/players against him winning the MVP. It's sad.
wmatistic
Andouille
Level: 87

Posts: 193/2171
EXP: 6312930
For next: 79869

Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 28 days
Last activity: 19 hours
AIM:  
#18 Posted on 25.9.05 0833.38
Reposted on: 25.9.12 0833.52
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Pujols has been the best player in the National League for some time now, but people for some reason like to find reasons/players against him winning the MVP. It's sad.


Well I think it's partly cause he just quietly does his job every day. Also the Cardinals haven't been getting as much air time as other clubs because they aren't involved in a playoff race. They had this thing locked up so long ago there just wasn't any drama to it so the sports shows focused on the other teams and guys like Pujols faded into the background, despite putting up the best numbers.

It's not really a bad problem to have. I think Pujols will win the MVP anyway.
Quezzy
Knackwurst
Level: 106

Posts: 1900/3252
EXP: 12647881
For next: 24103

Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 11 hours
Last activity: 11 hours
AIM:  
#19 Posted on 26.9.05 1027.35
Reposted on: 26.9.12 1027.50
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Pujols has been the best player in the National League for some time now, but people for some reason like to find reasons/players against him winning the MVP. It's sad.


Well if it were called the best player in the league award I would give it to him but it's called the Most Valuable Player.
ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE
Thread ahead: Padres Clinch It
Next thread: NL Wild Card Thread
Previous thread: Yankees in First!!!
(272 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
Related threads: Have you blown up a stadium today? - losing patience w/ cards - Rolen pulls out of the all star game - More...
The 7 - Baseball - Cardinals Question (Or Am I Just a Homer?)Register and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.298 seconds.