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19.9.07 1704
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Holy crap! Katrina
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BigSteve
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#61 Posted on 5.9.05 0938.52
Reposted on: 5.9.12 0942.25
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
      Originally posted by ShotGunShep
      Secondly, anyone playing the race card on this issue has no shame and is utterly despicable(see Kanye West).


    Ah yes. The race card. It's always the race card when it makes your side look bad. Kanye West said what needed to be said. Now as for Bush not caring about black people, I don't know the man, but Kanye was one hundred percent right in the media coverage and how it is going out of its way to make black people look bad. New Orleans is seventy percent black, so they show the black looters and then they show a white family "looking for food". They weren't even presenting these things as separate stories, they were juxtaposing these images together to draw some kind of moral disparity based on race. Well, I'm no math whiz, but it the city is seventy percent black, then obviously most of the people looting are black, and so are most of the people looking for food. I agree wholeheartedly that this whole terrible event should be about the need of the people, regardless of their race, but the media is constantly presenting things in an unbalanced matter, and thank God there are people who can see that the racism of today is much more subtle than that of years gone by. Just because people aren't getting lynched doesn't mean it's over. It's still here and it's still real and some of us face it every day, and people need to keep talking about it until it's gone.

    (edited by Hogan's My Dad on 5.9.05 0242)


Where were white families depicted "getting food" by the same news source that depicted black people being looters? Besides that one pair of pictures that were captioned by different media outlets? From all the media coverage that I saw, there was no giant conspiracy to make black people look bad. The coverage was more focused on "lots of people are in trouble, and this is a damned tragedy no matter what color they are." I really, really find it hard to believe that the media is actively using a tragedy like this as a way to further a racist agenda. I just don't see it.

And yes, Kanye West did play the race card. He made a statement that is, at the very least, unproven, and at the worst a damned lie. There's just no evidence that the lackluster response (by, among others, New Orleans black mayor) was motivated by race. If the situation were reversed and seventy percent of the New Orleans population were white, would that mean a slow response was because George Bush hates white people? It was just so inappropriate to inject a comment like that into a fund raiser.
ShotGunShep
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#62 Posted on 5.9.05 1004.15
Reposted on: 5.9.12 1006.30
When I was talking about Kanye, I was talking about his Bush comment.

And guys, it is SO easy to say we should have or could have prepared for something in advance. The government recieves tons of warnings and it is not so easy to sniff out which are real and which are not.

Do you really think we are prepared here on the West coast for a tsunami the size of the one last December. Government can't save us from the awesome power of nature.

And lastly about looters... stealing food and shelter-giving objects would be completely justified. Stealing Tennis shoes or stereos is looting.
oldschoolhero
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#63 Posted on 5.9.05 1041.52
Reposted on: 5.9.12 1041.59
"Do you really think we are prepared here on the West coast for a tsunami the size of the one last December. Government can't save us from the awesome power of nature."

Come ON, man. This wasn't a tsunami the size of December's, thank Christ. And when you're handed an environmental report put together by those whose JOB it is to comment on these things, you damn sure better do something about it. We're not talking a death threat smeared in feces here, the government had knowledge of the total unpreparedness of the area and it did NOTHING. It had its own agenda which didn't include spending money on things such as flood protection, despite warnings and despite the South-and many parts of America-routinely having to cope with adverse weather conditions or natural disasters. They are accountable for this. They are accountable for the woeful delay in aid. And they should be treated as such.
Mr. Boffo
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#64 Posted on 5.9.05 1354.15
Reposted on: 5.9.12 1354.17
    Originally posted by Ticamo
    Add the fact that you have a toddler, an infant and a wife who are looking to you for your strength.

Are you talking about one well-known case in particular? I don't really watch news, so I'm not aware of that sort of thing. I hope that's the case, because otherwise I doubt every looter happens to have a wife, a toddler, and an infant back home.
Boston Idol
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#65 Posted on 5.9.05 1517.28
Reposted on: 5.9.12 1517.29
Ray Nagin's emergency plan was textbook liberalism.
Do nothing and wait for the Federal Government to
bail you out. That's what we've taught our urban
poor (of all races) since the Great Society.

People are citing surveys, drills, and predictions
that all pointed to 100,000 or more people not being
able to leave New Orleans due to illness or economics.
What was Ray Nagin's plan for those people?

If he knew they couldn't afford to leave on their own,
he should have arranged transportation or he should
have asked the Louisiana governor for transportation...
years ago... when he developed his emergency plan.

Frank
messenoir
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#66 Posted on 5.9.05 2052.05
Reposted on: 5.9.12 2052.14
Michael Brown, head of FEMA, was kicked out of his only other job overseeing horse shows and got this job because of a college roommate:

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857&format=&page=2

Remember, this is the man who said he didn't know details about the hurricane anyone watching a TV set could have known.

You know, if we were slow on this, I seriously hope we never have a chemical attack occur in this country. Because if it took days to respond to something we knew before hand could be a disaster, imagine how long it will take to respond to a totally unknown disaster.
Boston Idol
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#67 Posted on 5.9.05 2305.01
Reposted on: 5.9.12 2305.33
    Originally posted by messenoir
    Because if it took days to respond to something we knew before hand could be a disaster...


Again, the Mayor of New Orleans would have known this better than anyone? Did he do any type of planning? Does he have zero responsibility for evacuating or sheltering the residents of his city?

If Ray Nagin had done his job, most of the "crisis" would have been averted. Meanwhile NBC is airing footage of people still in New Orleans who aren't sitting in their own feces waiting for help.

Frank
Ticamo
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#68 Posted on 6.9.05 0843.21
Reposted on: 6.9.12 0844.11
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
      Originally posted by Ticamo
      Add the fact that you have a toddler, an infant and a wife who are looking to you for your strength.

    Are you talking about one well-known case in particular? I don't really watch news, so I'm not aware of that sort of thing. I hope that's the case, because otherwise I doubt every looter happens to have a wife, a toddler, and an infant back home.


Fine, to simplify it a bit, let's speak hypothetically. Let's say I forgot the word "may" in the sentence "...have a toddler, an infant and a wife..." Or let's forget them all together. Let's just say that it's only you and YOU are about to die of hunger and thirst. You mean to tell me that you'd walk past a grocery store stocked with food and drinks?

Hell no! You'd take a brick and 'find' something in there.

There's no need to concentrate on 'one well-known case' when there are hundreds of people crying everyday about having been hungry and thirsty for four days, until help arrived. But yes, a few news reporters did approach several 'looters' and asked them why they were 'looting' and they stated that they were in fact, hungry and thirsty.
messenoir
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#69 Posted on 6.9.05 0853.29
Reposted on: 6.9.12 0853.53
Of course Nagin bears responsability, of course the Governor bears responsability, of course the Federal Government bears responsability. People AT ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT bear responsability here, and it is pretty pathetic the Mayor and Governor are trying to deflect blame up, and the Federal Government are trying to deflect blame down. It is also pretty pathetic people like you are trying to defend your favorite pet politician when it is clear no one should be safe from blame.

Oh, and I would ask that into you are asked to leave everything behind at the spur of the moment when everytime you were asked to leave before nothing happened, that you not blame the victims here for staying. Especially if you have never tried to find a way out of town with no vehicle or multiple crying kids asking you when you're going back or why they can't take Fluffy the Bear.

The people were sitting in their own filth because they were promised help was coming, and I'm sorry, but 20,000 thousand people all walking on the highway out of town because they were taking matters in their own hands would be a disaster. The sick, the young, the elderly, the people with no vehicles, all of those had to wait for the government to bail them out.

Boston Idol
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#70 Posted on 6.9.05 1035.57
Reposted on: 6.9.12 1037.14
I'm not trying to blame the victims. I pointed out that
many of them didn't have the means to evacuate. Ray Nagin
knew that. Studies also predicted that many others would
choose not to leave. Nagin knew that, too, but he did not
provide shelter, security, water, or food for those people.
No one should be safe from blame, but I don't see Democrats
holding the mayor of New Orleans responsible for anything.
I look forward to a commission studying the whole process,
not just looking to wrongly cast blame on the other party.

Frank
Leroy
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#71 Posted on 6.9.05 1221.49
Reposted on: 6.9.12 1222.13
    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    Nagin knew that, too, but he did not
    provide shelter, security, water, or food for those people.
    No one should be safe from blame, but I don't see Democrats
    holding the mayor of New Orleans responsible for anything.
    I look forward to a commission studying the whole process,
    not just looking to wrongly cast blame on the other party.

    Frank


They were told that they would receive federal help. A city - or state, for that matter - simply does not have the resources necessary to undertake the kind of evacuation that was required. They just don't have it.

Both the mayor and the governor were told that they would receive significant frederal help THAT NEVER CAME. That's the issue. Essentially, you're blaming Nagin and Blanco for needing federal assistance, which makes no sense to me. If you need it, you need it.

Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard tearfully recalls the wait for federal help

None of these people gave a damn where the help was going to come from - city, state, federal. They NEEDED help, and not only was it not sent AS PROMISED, but the people who came completely and totalled screwed up. That's not on Nagin or Blanco.....

(edited by Leroy on 6.9.05 1025)
Jahnkekong
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#72 Posted on 6.9.05 1339.58
Reposted on: 6.9.12 1340.19
I just heard a person directly responsible for hurricane planning in New Orleans (no longer worked there, but recently worked there) and she said the local government is responsible for conducting/sponsoring etc evacuation plans for up to a slow moving category 3 hurricane, after that it is a federal level job, one would presume because of the amount of destruction etc that a 3,4 or 5 can bring upon a city.

If that was not the case Leroy, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, it appears the ball was dropped on a Federal level, and now we have one of the worst disasters on record on all our hands.
The Thrill
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#73 Posted on 6.9.05 1441.08
Reposted on: 6.9.12 1441.49
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I cannot think of a single good reason why any of our 50 State Governors did not immediately call up and mobilize their National Guard forces to aid in disaster relief...


Some did. Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle (D), through a governor's agreement w/ Louisiana's gov., is sending a bunch of what Wisconsin Army and Air National Guard servicemen and women are left (2 battalions currently in Iraq, including my old one...see avatar to the left) to the crisis zone to help.

Here's a breakdown. (WI Dept. of Military Affairs Media & Public Info)
The Thrill
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#74 Posted on 6.9.05 1441.08
Reposted on: 6.9.12 1441.49
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I cannot think of a single good reason why any of our 50 State Governors did not immediately call up and mobilize their National Guard forces to aid in disaster relief...


Some did. Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle (D), through a governor's agreement w/ Louisiana's gov., is sending a bunch of what Wisconsin Army and Air National Guard servicemen and women are left (2 battalions currently in Iraq, including my old one...see avatar to the left) to the crisis zone to help.

Here's a breakdown. (WI Dept. of Military Affairs Media & Public Info)
Boston Idol
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#75 Posted on 6.9.05 1549.44
Reposted on: 6.9.12 1552.35
Which city is closer to New Orleans?

a) Washington D.C.

b) Baton Rouge, LA.

c) New Orleans, LA.

The closest resources for evacuating folks who don't own
cars were in New Orleans (duh!) under the jurisdiction of
Mayor Nagin. The next closest resources were spread around
the state of Louisiana under the jurisdiction of Governor
Blanco. Did Nagin load up every bus he could find to help
people evacuate before the storm? Did Blanco send busses?

People can complain because the Federal Government didn't
get help into the city by Wednesday morning, but the people
who were in the best position to help before New Orleans
was flooded dropped the ball. As Lieutenant General Honoré
pointed out, troops do not get deployed into the path of a
hurricane, so they couldn't have been their before the storm.

Some have pointed out that people are hesitant to evacuate
because it might be a waste of time, money, and effort. The
same logic holds true for calling out the national guard.
They don't sit in their barracks 24/7 with trucks fueled and
loaded waiting for a call because it would cost too much
to maintain them like a Federal Government fire department.

The first line of defense is city officials. They need to
have plans for evacuation, if possible, and for food, shelter,
and security. Forget for a second how to portion out blame
for New Orleans and think about your own area. I live in
San Jose. No one has told me where to go in the event of
a massive earthquake or a terrorist attack and I have no
idea if there are any emergency provisions set aside.

This should be a wakeup call to all governments, local, state,
and federal, that everyone has responsibilities and that no one
should assume someone else will cover their asses if they
haven't invested time and money to develop their own plan.
Those who blame Washington first and foremost miss that point.

Frank
BigSteve
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#76 Posted on 6.9.05 1601.44
Reposted on: 6.9.12 1602.39
    Originally posted by Leroy
    They were told that they would receive federal help. A city - or state, for that matter - simply does not have the resources necessary to undertake the kind of evacuation that was required. They just don't have it.

    Both the mayor and the governor were told that they would receive significant frederal help THAT NEVER CAME. That's the issue. Essentially, you're blaming Nagin and Blanco for needing federal assistance, which makes no sense to me. If you need it, you need it.


Whatever screw ups were made at the federal level were made after much of the damage had been done on the state and local level causing a whole lot of needless damage. There were things that the local/state government failed to do that really should have been done to alleviate some of the problems(the empty busses, mobilizing the guard earlier). Sure, they inevitably required immense federal help, but the feds aren't supposed to be the first in line to clean up state/local problems - that's the jobs of the state/local governments After all, what's the point of having local authorities if they can't respond quicker than the feds. It seems like Negin et al. did a whole lot of finger pointing and not enough to actually help people out.

Edit: And what of this (nola.com)? Why did the President of the United States have to "personally appeal" to the governor to order a mandatory evacuation? Does that sound like the state and local authorities were doing their job?

And how about this (transcripts.cnn.com)? The governor wanted to wait a day to make a decision while the president wanted to move forward right away. Is that a screwup on the state or the federal level?


    NOLA Mayor Nagin interview w/Soledad O'Brien in which he says Gov. Blanco told the President she needed 24 hours to make a decision for Federal aid.

    NAGIN: The president looked at me. I think he was a little surprised. He said, "No, you guys stay here. We're going to another section of the plane, and we're going to make a decision."

    He called me in that office after that. And he said, "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor." I said -- and I don't remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

    S. O'BRIEN: You're telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?

    NAGIN: Yes.

    S. O'BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?

    NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the -- I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

    S. O'BRIEN: And the governor said no.

    NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn't happen, and more people died.


(edited by BigSteve on 6.9.05 1727)

(edited by BigSteve on 6.9.05 1734)
JimBob Skeeter
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#77 Posted on 8.9.05 1230.31
Reposted on: 8.9.12 1231.09
Looks like the owner of this business in New Orleans prepared for the worst from the get-go:


(image removed)
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