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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Holy crap! Katrina
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JayJayDean
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#41 Posted on 2.9.05 1047.27
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1053.39
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    is anybody else outraged that everything that can fly people and equipment isn't in New Orleans right now?


Only as outraged as I am at the people they told to get the fuck out of there who made the choice to stay. If everyone with the means had left when they were told to evacuate, the situation would surely be less dire for a humanitarian aspect, based on numbers alone.
GRL
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#42 Posted on 2.9.05 1137.54
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1138.18
Edited: I'm just still in shock. New Orleans is gone, and I think I'll wait to point fingers until after the suffering has ended. If ever, really.

(edited by GRL on 2.9.05 1240)
messenoir
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#43 Posted on 2.9.05 1242.49
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1244.58
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by Jaguar
      is anybody else outraged that everything that can fly people and equipment isn't in New Orleans right now?


    Only as outraged as I am at the people they told to get the fuck out of there who made the choice to stay. If everyone with the means had left when they were told to evacuate, the situation would surely be less dire for a humanitarian aspect, based on numbers alone.


Many people didn't have the means. Either way, we should be helping people right now, no excuses.
JayJayDean
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#44 Posted on 2.9.05 1259.48
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1301.21
    Originally posted by messenoir
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
        Originally posted by Jaguar
        is anybody else outraged that everything that can fly people and equipment isn't in New Orleans right now?


      Only as outraged as I am at the people they told to get the fuck out of there who made the choice to stay. If everyone with the means had left when they were told to evacuate, the situation would surely be less dire for a humanitarian aspect, based on numbers alone.


    Many people didn't have the means. Either way, we should be helping people right now, no excuses.


(Emphasis added to make sure noone else misses my point.)

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. W is on his way to the coast? Great! How much will that help? ZERO. What would help? How 'bout filling up that airplane and chopper he had to fly down on and filling it up with bottled water and food for the people? Right?!

And then I think...they were TOLD TO LEAVE! This wasn't a sudden earthquake that caught everyone unprepared. The thing gathered up steam for three days on the Gulf before it hit land. IT KILLED PEOPLE IN FLORIDA. And people who are suffering because of their OWN inaction want to take the people TRYING to help them and throw them under the bus for their PERCEIVED inaction? OK, I guess.

I do believe that under the circumstances everyone involved is doing the best they can.
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#45 Posted on 2.9.05 1314.20
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1315.19
Jesus christ, yes, lets blame all the people who stayed. Lets blame them all for YEARS of experience with Hurricanes. Lets blame them ones who although they had a house, were still living paycheck to paycheck, and couldnt afford to take a week off and drive someplace (where did you expect a million people to go?) and stay in a hotel or wherever. Lets blame them, since we know Mississippi, Alabama and New Orleans is just LINED with people of wealth who can leave thier homes and be okay at a moments notice.

And, I am sorry Jag, but to expect the government to preposition food and supplies every time a hurricane nears is VERY impractical. The logistics alone would prevent it from happening. Besides that, where do you put it? Where do you put all that food, medical supplies, water, etc? How do you know it would be safe? Who pays for all those supplies? Who is responsible for bringing it to the disaster site? All the "we're the greatest country, we should be able to handle this" talk is from people who dont know a goddamn thing about the logistical side of how the government operates. Where do you buy the supplies? Where do you store it? How do you move it? Who moves it? where do you put it to have it 'ready'? Do you bring it into New Orleans, where people are shooting at the helicopters? Do you wheel it in there and let the things be overrun by the same people looting stores 'for essentials'?


And, if the storm somehow decreased in size, power and intensity and didnt cause an iota of real damage, would you then bitch about 'taxpayers money' being spent to move around a bunch of supplies nobody needed?

Where is the LOCAL governments responsibility? Going to tell me New Orleans, and Louisiana doesnt have its share of blame in this entire fiasco? What were the state and city's emergency plans? To let the thing flood and call Washington for help?

As far as National Gaurd members not being deployed, they are commanded by the individual state's governors. Why didnt the Governors have more people in place? Why didnt the state have things lined up? Why put all the blame on the President, when the people who are 'in charge' of the place didnt plan so well either?
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#46 Posted on 2.9.05 1425.58
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1425.58
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Jesus christ, yes, lets blame all the people who stayed. Lets blame them all for YEARS of experience with Hurricanes. Lets blame them ones who although they had a house, were still living paycheck to paycheck, and couldnt afford to take a week off and drive someplace (where did you expect a million people to go?) and stay in a hotel or wherever. Lets blame them, since we know Mississippi, Alabama and New Orleans is just LINED with people of wealth who can leave thier homes and be okay at a moments notice.


I'm sorry, but that just doesn't quite work for me. I know there are people down there who legitimately could not get out on their own accord. For those people I say there should have been some sort of contingency plan in place.

But for the others...yes, maybe you've gone with the old "Get a case of booze and ride it out" approach that I saw enough bloggers getting set to employ before this hit, but there has to be a certain level of flexibility here. For 2 days beforehand there was little doubt this was going to hit VERY hard. One could debate if it would be catastrophic or what have you, but no one down there had any reason to believe they were not going to be blasted by a Cat 4-5 hurricane, which no one in New Orleans has dealt with before. Yes it's hard to pack up and leave, I know enough Floridians who have done that before to empathize with that. But after a certain point there's an element of just sticking your head in the sand and assuming if you survive well, someone will come bail you out. And we are, because obviously we're not going to let people drown for being obstinate and not leaving. But it irks me knowing they could have had less death and less of a struggle to save the living had people heeded the advice.
Leroy
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#47 Posted on 2.9.05 1448.00
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1448.41
I don't think that applies to the folks in the dome or the convention center, either. Those folks made legitimate attempts to go to areas where they - for some reason - thought there would be enough resources and facilities to help them out. And a lot of these folks are dirt poor to start with.

FEMA and the federal government had PLENTY of time to mobilize enough aid prior - and really, everyone was expecting the worst to begin with - so there's really no excuse as to why it is taking so long to get these folks basic materials. FEMA took a bunch of flack after hurricane Andrew for their poor response time.

Lastly, if something like this happened in Southern California (tsunami, whatever) - it would be VERY difficult for me to just pack up and leave. My closest friends are here, the majority of my family is here, my entire life is basically here. I can definitely see the inclination to try to "ride it out" with those I care about rather than leaving some folks behind. It would be a very difficult decision - and I imagine that's the reason some of those folks stayed.

(edited by Leroy on 2.9.05 1316)
too-old-now
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#48 Posted on 2.9.05 1513.49
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1514.10
Days before it hit, the feelings could best be described as curiosity - what was going to happen? I have a couple of relatives (cousins I'm no longer very close to, but I used to be) who it turns out heeded the evacuation warnings, so I followed the weather reports before it hit.

Then, it hit, and the feelings turned to concern. For people I don't even know.

Not really a surprise that the levees didn't hold.
Shock, as it turns out the damage is far more than I could have guessed.

Empathy. How can I help? I sent my donation off, getting the company match. Trying to shake off the feeling of guilt as I realize how fortunate I am. This doesn't last long as I don't feel fortunate at all when I have to fill up my gas tank.

As much as I try to appreciate that the focus has to be on saving people's lives/restoring some sense of order, I can't help but feel more and more anger at the whole situation.

Flood control funding cut, to pay for an illegal war in Iraq. Few national guard available, as they're deployed overseas. Our oil dependent economy so fragile that a predictable storm causes this much havoc.

Dubya flying overhead, acting concerned for a few minutes, then playing golf the next day, after a 5 week vacation!

Waiting until Saturday to mobilize the National Guard to get 30,000 troops in to help, they should have been ready to go on Monday, as last Sunday night it was pretty clear this was a category 4 storm and the devastation would be severe.

I'm obviously not close enough to the situation that anyone would care about my opinion, and I do respect the hard work and truly heroic efforts done by many of the individuals involved. I would not be surprised if my feelings were shared by many Americans.
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#49 Posted on 2.9.05 1519.04
Reposted on: 2.9.12 1521.32
Those of us who live where things like this happen, pretty much, on a yearly basis can tell you that there really isn't any way for you to just 'grab your shit and go.' like they tell/suggest you to do.

With a natural disaster heading your way, you have two main options. Leave every thing you own behind and run for the high/dry ground or dig yourself in and hope for the best. You have the chance that it'll turn and go somewhere else and not bother you or hit you head on and destroy everything you've worked for.

I don't run from storms. You can't stop Mother Nature so the best you can do is stick it out and start rebuilding whatever damadge is done and move on. The way I see it, the people in New Orleans did ths and they're gonna need to start helping themselves as best as they can untill some help arrives... it's what I'd do.

How can ANYONE just grab a few things and run? Run where? What do you grab knowing that there's a chance that nothing will be there when you come back? At some point, you're going to say "Fuck that!", grab a beer, sit your ass down, and hope for the best.
redsoxnation
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#50 Posted on 2.9.05 2037.22
Reposted on: 2.9.12 2037.56
Now that things have gone from bad to worse to Mogadishu levels, time to start questioning many things.

First, one of the fundamental purposes of government is to protect the security of the citizens. If the local, state or federal government can not perform this basic requirement of its very existence, serious questions need to be raised about why it exists. Funding studies on why a deer might find a mosquito sexually attractive does not provide an adequate reason for its existence.

Next, any New Orleans cop who cut and ran is derelict of their duty and should not only be fired, but have their pension revoked. Personally, I believe they should also be tarred and feathered for their cowardice, but that is probably asking to much.

New Orleans is built underwater. Anyone with an IQ relatively close to positive numbers could realize that problems could arise should a serious hurricane hit or the levees were to fail. How there was no coherent plan in place to deal with this type of situation is criminal neglect. Is there an emergency management team in Louisiana? If so, what have they spent taxpayer dollars on since their creation? And, how could there be no clear idea of what to do with those who took the government's warning to evacuate? The followed the directives of the government, and ended up in hell.

While all levels of government has taken incompetence to a new level, those who decided to stay when they could have left do hold some responsibility for their actions. If they decide they can "tough out" a storm, then they made their decision, and have to live with it. Also, those who could have found a way out of town but decided to take the opportunity to get a 60" plasma TV or play the role of a warlord from Escape from New York, well, there is a special section in hell for them. Those who had no choice, or those who looted food/water in order to survive, should not be lumped in the same category with the criminal element.
Oliver
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#51 Posted on 3.9.05 0345.32
Reposted on: 3.9.12 0345.51
I don't know whether I should be upset or not that President Bush took a week to visit New Orleans. All I know that is that if I was in their shoes, I'd look to the leader of the country for strength, and he was absent for the most part.

Oh, and Mayor Nagin is AWESOME. I loved his outburst (nytimes.com) at the continual "all talk no action" that has been the sad norm over the past week. Page two of the transcript is very awesome.

I'd love to see Nagin become president one day.
bash91
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#52 Posted on 3.9.05 0905.43
Reposted on: 3.9.12 0905.57
    Originally posted by SOK
    Oh, and Mayor Nagin is AWESOME. I loved his outburst (nytimes.com) at the continual "all talk no action" that has been the sad norm over the past week. Page two of the transcript is very awesome.

    I'd love to see Nagin become president one day.


You and I must have different definitions of AWESOME, unless you just forgot to add ly incompetent or ly hypocritical to the original awesome. Personally, I just can't call an incompetent hack who needed a call from the governor (brendanloy.com)(you may need to scroll down) to actually get him off his duff and issue the evacuation awesome. Nor would I call the moron who left an easy means of evacuation (news.yahoo.com) in the parking lot to get flooded and apparently totally forgot about other busses (billhobbs.com) rather than use them to help people get out, awesome.

Quite frankly, whatever you may think of the federal government's response, there is absolutely no doubt that the administration of New Orleans failed it's citizens in every way possible and in the worst way possible and is now trying to shift the blame for their colossal screwup. It won't happen, but Nagin should be impeached and then indicted on several cemetery's worth of criminal negligence resulting in death charges.

Tim
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#53 Posted on 3.9.05 0911.05
Reposted on: 3.9.12 0911.34
You're impress with Nagin? Really??? I'm hoping that's sarcasm. Because his tirade on the radio is clearly in the "talk" category, not "action". It doesn't do a damn thing to help. It's not that some of his complaints are not valid, as they certainly may well be, but it would be a lot easier to swallow if he had shown one iota of leadership throughout this whole thing.
DJ FrostyFreeze
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#54 Posted on 3.9.05 1130.49
Reposted on: 3.9.12 1131.00
http://maps.google.com/

If you go to Google Maps & zoom in on New Orleans, a new "Katrina" button appears (Next to "Map", "Satellite", & "Hybrid") and you can see satellite imagery of post-Katrina N.O., but it only shows up if you zoom in on N.O.
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#55 Posted on 4.9.05 0008.18
Reposted on: 4.9.12 0009.29
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    And, I am sorry Jag, but to expect the government to preposition food and supplies every time a hurricane nears is VERY impractical. The logistics alone would prevent it from happening. Besides that, where do you put it? Where do you put all that food, medical supplies, water, etc? How do you know it would be safe? Who pays for all those supplies? Who is responsible for bringing it to the disaster site? All the "we're the greatest country, we should be able to handle this" talk is from people who dont know a goddamn thing about the logistical side of how the government operates. Where do you buy the supplies? Where do you store it? How do you move it? Who moves it? where do you put it to have it 'ready'? Do you bring it into New Orleans, where people are shooting at the helicopters? Do you wheel it in there and let the things be overrun by the same people looting stores 'for essentials'?


    And, if the storm somehow decreased in size, power and intensity and didnt cause an iota of real damage, would you then bitch about 'taxpayers money' being spent to move around a bunch of supplies nobody needed?

    Where is the LOCAL governments responsibility? Going to tell me New Orleans, and Louisiana doesnt have its share of blame in this entire fiasco? What were the state and city's emergency plans? To let the thing flood and call Washington for help?

    As far as National Gaurd members not being deployed, they are commanded by the individual state's governors. Why didnt the Governors have more people in place? Why didnt the state have things lined up? Why put all the blame on the President, when the people who are 'in charge' of the place didnt plan so well either?


See, this isn't what I meant, and I think a lot of people are getting caught up over the wrong things. What I wanted in place before the storm hit (seeing as how we had a few days to think about it) was a plan to mobilize and get our troops and equpiment in there and the pepole OUT of there without letting a goddamned week go past. When you don't have food or water or even much shelter on Monday it doesn't do much good when the goverment tells you that help will get there by Saturday. And I could really care less about whose fault this is - the only thing I care about was the response after the storm hit. Every single inaction on Monday, Tuesaday, and later has cost lives. Even forgetting about the White House for the moment, I cannot think of a single good reason why any of our 50 State Governors did not immediately call up and mobilize their National Guard forces to aid in disaster relief. The fact that this didn't happen (and apologies to those that did react, between power outages and the influx of volunteers I haven't had much time to be on top of the news), and that our Senators and Congressmen weren't screaming for action says to me that our whole governmental apparatus is more content to sit on their asses than save the lives of American citizens.

The amount of effort and determination I'm seeing from thousands of unpaid volunteers in the Red Cross is absolutely staggering when you compare it to the relative inaction from our government. "Where were you after Katrina?" is a question we should be asking all the incumbents everytime we hit the polls in the next decade. While New Orleans had the special ingredients to make this disaster that much worse, an emergency of this scale could happen anywhere in this country. Do you really want to be stuck without food and water for a week because your elected officials can't be bothered to do more than business as usual? Just think how much worse this would be if there had been follow up storms moving through the area this past week?

Have I managed to convey how absolutely livid this makes me anytime I catch the news?
It's False
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#56 Posted on 4.9.05 1509.51
Reposted on: 4.9.12 1512.16
There's even more tragedy to come. Once the smoke finally clears (if it ever does), a large chunk of victims that will likely have lost everything will fall victim to the New Bankruptcy Bill, set to take effect October 17.

Legislation is being introduced to make the victims of this natural disaster exempt, and here's hoping it passes.

(edited by It's False on 4.9.05 1310)
ShotGunShep
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#57 Posted on 4.9.05 2018.34
Reposted on: 4.9.12 2018.55
Why is everybody getting so damned heated. Why do you all think that we are masters of Nature?

We will never be able to fully prepare for natural disasters and they will kill people and ruin lives till the end of time. They always have and always will.

Firstly on blaming the people who didn't leave, but who could have... The newsmedia has overhyped the shit out of storms in the past year for ratings. A 'boy crying wolf' effect causes many citizens to shrug off warnings that should be taken seriously.
Also, it is very easy to talk about getting up and leaving your life when you don't actually have to do it(I luckily have never been in this type of situation).

Secondly, anyone playing the race card on this issue has no shame and is utterly despicable(see Kanye West).

And lastly, do you really think the government can fully prepare for major natural disasters. This wasn't your average storm people, this was a once in a lifetime. Who among us could have truly and honestly imagined last week's events?

Mistakes may have been made after, but it is too soon to know too many details and politicizing this tragedy is wrong.
oldschoolhero
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#58 Posted on 5.9.05 0424.23
Reposted on: 5.9.12 0424.51
"And lastly, do you really think the government can fully prepare for major natural disasters?"

When the government is WARNED, four YEARS in advance, that a major hurricane striking New Orleans would cause widespread devestation, and then proceeds to not only ignore the warning but cut funding to flood and disaster prevention programs, then I think they deserve a little bit of heat for it.
Hogan's My Dad
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#59 Posted on 5.9.05 0438.57
Reposted on: 5.9.12 0441.10
    Originally posted by ShotGunShep
    Secondly, anyone playing the race card on this issue has no shame and is utterly despicable(see Kanye West).


Ah yes. The race card. It's always the race card when it makes your side look bad. Kanye West said what needed to be said. Now as for Bush not caring about black people, I don't know the man, but Kanye was one hundred percent right in the media coverage and how it is going out of its way to make black people look bad. New Orleans is seventy percent black, so they show the black looters and then they show a white family "looking for food". They weren't even presenting these things as separate stories, they were juxtaposing these images together to draw some kind of moral disparity based on race. Well, I'm no math whiz, but it the city is seventy percent black, then obviously most of the people looting are black, and so are most of the people looking for food. I agree wholeheartedly that this whole terrible event should be about the need of the people, regardless of their race, but the media is constantly presenting things in an unbalanced matter, and thank God there are people who can see that the racism of today is much more subtle than that of years gone by. Just because people aren't getting lynched doesn't mean it's over. It's still here and it's still real and some of us face it every day, and people need to keep talking about it until it's gone.

(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 5.9.05 0242)
Ticamo
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#60 Posted on 5.9.05 0856.16
Reposted on: 5.9.12 0859.02
What it boils down to now is survival. These 'looters' are doing what they can, just to survive. If you're faced with dying from dehydration and starvation, you're going to do what you must, to survive. Add the fact that you have a toddler, an infant and a wife who are looking to you for your strength. I imagine that'll make a man do what he has to do-- 'loot'. As HMD said, the city is predominately black and it's very frustrating that the media chooses to confuse 'trying to survive' with 'looting'. This isn't the LA Riots. They need to get that straight.

It shouldn't be about race, but when it's depicted in such a biased way... well, that's what happens.


(edited by Ticamo on 5.9.05 0658)
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