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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - We haven't found Bin Laden yet, but we DID find sex in video games...
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CHAPLOW
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#21 Posted on 22.7.05 0129.34
Reposted on: 22.7.12 0130.47
In any case-
Lets take a look at this issue from a different point of view;

Mowing people down with an AK, Blowing up an ambulance and killing Poilcemen by the dozens- "Mature".

Seeing two pixelated people 'have sex'- "Adults Only".

Whats wrong with this picture?
Mr. Boffo
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#22 Posted on 22.7.05 0638.57
Reposted on: 22.7.12 0643.46
    Originally posted by WhoTookMyHonor?
    In any case-
    Lets take a look at this issue from a different point of view;

    Mowing people down with an AK, Blowing up an ambulance and killing Poilcemen by the dozens- "Mature".

    Seeing two pixelated people 'have sex'- "Adults Only".

    Whats wrong with this picture?

That's the United States for you. That's what being founded by Puritans will get you.
vsp
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#23 Posted on 22.7.05 1520.36
Reposted on: 22.7.12 1520.57
    Originally posted by WhoTookMyHonor?
    In any case-
    Lets take a look at this issue from a different point of view;

    Mowing people down with an AK, Blowing up an ambulance and killing Poilcemen by the dozens- "Mature".

    Seeing two pixelated people 'have sex'- "Adults Only".

    Whats wrong with this picture?


Better still:

A game in which you can violently and premeditatedly stick a knife into a woman, killing her, is rated more suitable for younger audiences than one in which you can stick something different into a woman with which she WANTS to be stuck.

THAT'S a priority check.



Leroy
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#24 Posted on 22.7.05 1527.43
Reposted on: 22.7.12 1527.48
    Originally posted by vsp
    Better still:

    A game in which you can violently and premeditatedly stick a knife into a woman, killing her, is rated more suitable for younger audiences than one in which you can stick something different into a woman with which she WANTS to be stuck.

    THAT'S a priority check.






But you willingly purchased the former, but didn't willingly purchase the latter...

Wait... that makes it even creepier, doesn't it?
Leroy
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#25 Posted on 22.7.05 1527.43
Reposted on: 22.7.12 1529.01
(deleted by CRZ on 22.7.05 1528)
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#26 Posted on 22.7.05 1614.10
Reposted on: 22.7.12 1614.11
    Originally posted by Leroy
      Originally posted by vsp
      Better still:

      A game in which you can violently and premeditatedly stick a knife into a woman, killing her, is rated more suitable for younger audiences than one in which you can stick something different into a woman with which she WANTS to be stuck.

      THAT'S a priority check.






    But you willingly purchased the former, but didn't willingly purchase the latter...

    Wait... that makes it even creepier, doesn't it?


But once again - you have to knowingly modify your game to access that content. There is no 'unintended' or 'accidental' way to view it.

You willingly purchased it.

-Jag
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#27 Posted on 22.7.05 1719.37
Reposted on: 22.7.12 1720.01
By "creepier", I was referring to the fact that it's okay to "knowingly" purchase a game with the violence VSP described, but it's not okay to "unknowingly" purchase a game with consensual sex.

The fact that consensual sex is the line that's crossed in a game where you can commit atrocious acts of violence at will is just disturbing to me. Which is more or less what VSP was saying, I just said it worse.

(edited by Leroy on 22.7.05 1522)
Mr. Boffo
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#28 Posted on 22.7.05 1735.29
Reposted on: 22.7.12 1736.55
Yeah, now I guess we have to protect teens from their own sexual impulses.

That's right, it's the video game makers fault that your child downloaded a patch that allowed him to view simulated sex scenes in said video game.

Like EddieBurkett says, I'm surprised they haven't come after The Sims or Tomb Raider or something (both games known for their nudity skins).
EddieBurkett
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#29 Posted on 23.7.05 0034.18
Reposted on: 23.7.12 0034.21
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    Like EddieBurkett says, I'm surprised they haven't come after The Sims or Tomb Raider or something (both games known for their nudity skins).


Be surprised no more. (gamespot.com). Really, what the hell is EA supposed to do to block this? Frankly, we need a way to prevent people from modding real life to unlock assholes like Jack Thompson.
ekedolphin
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#30 Posted on 23.7.05 0109.07
Reposted on: 23.7.12 0110.38
I've spent a loooong time playing The Sims 2, so I'll tackle this.

Yes, there is a cheat code that allows you to remove the blur, without any modification at all. It works for every age group from toddler to elder. And yes, each Sim's body is "as anatomically impaired as a Ken doll," to use a line from Dogma.

And there is sexual content in the game. Well, duh! The Sims 2 is a life-simulation game, and despite what Mr. Thompson thinks (and despite my past experience), sex actually is a part of life. Where do you think babies come from, anyway?

However, as anyone who's ever played The Sims 2 will attest to, the sexual content is actually light-hearted, playful and even comical. The first time two Sims "go all the way" in bed, we see a cut-scene in which the two Sims are kissing, one of them grabs the other's butt and growls, and the two go under the covers, wrestling around, while romantic music plays and literal fireworks appear.

When the two Sims are done doing their thing, they appear from underneath the covers wearing their underwear, and one of the Sims embraces the other. (Which Sim does which action is dependent upon which Sim initiated the "WooHoo" action in the first place.) With each subsequent WooHoo in bed, they skip right to the wrestling under the covers, no cutscene.

If two Sims are making love in the hot tub for the first time, you see a cutscene in which they're flirting, and then they wrestle underneath the water of the hot tub, with their feet or hands occasionally surfacing. Again, light-hearted and cute. With each subsequent occurrence, they again skip right to the wrestling, no cutscenes involved.

Here's an important distinction I need to make clear-- only young adults (adults in college), adults and elders can participate in WooHoo interactions. Only adults can become pregnant. From what I understand there are unauthorized modifications that allow teenagers to WooHoo (and to become pregnant), but it's important to stress that they are unauthorized. Furthermore, I think EA's done a fantastic job at encouraging the mod community, and I don't see that they have a legal leg to stand on to prevent such modifications-- as long as no one's making money off of them.

Without modification, there are no penises, testicles, vaginas, anuses or even nipples in the game. Without modification that even I haven't heard of, there are no instances of "child pornography" in the game.

Furthermore, though Sims can get into fights, and yes, they can die (because death is part of life), they can't kill each other. There's no prostitution, drug use, child abuse or anything of that nature in the game. I don't understand the adult attitude that kids need to be protected from sex in video games, yet there's not nearly as much controversy over violence anymore. Remember when parents were up in arms over Mortal Kombat due entirely to the violence? Those days are over, now sex is the enemy.

Nevermind the fact that Cosmopolitan can be found on store shelves all over the country, and Wal-Mart sells guns.

You know, it's shit like this that makes me want to move to Canada or something.

(However, I will say this-- EA is being somewhat disingenuous when they say that only "someone with an extreme amount of time and expertise" can remove the pixels. Honest to God, it's one line entered into the cheat box. And no, I'm not going to tell you what it is. If you really wanna know, I provide this for your reference as a free public service.)
EddieBurkett
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#31 Posted on 23.7.05 0119.19
Reposted on: 23.7.12 0119.29
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    There's no prostitution


That's what we have The Sims Online for...

Now that I've thought about this, I'm glad he's going after EA. EA has such large marketshare that to defend themselves is to defend the game industry. And they also have the war chest to fight this guy. And I believe they have the legal grounds to stand upon. Its one thing for politicians to go after an already controversial game run by a morally questionable company. Its another to attack the big dog in the marketplace. I wonder if Jack Thompson knows what he's in for.

Especially given that the EA legal team will work round the clock without overtime to beat him...
Fuzzy Logic
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#32 Posted on 23.7.05 0129.58
Reposted on: 23.7.12 0130.29
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html

You mean like this guy? Because he's stupid personified. Of course, it's more that the scrambley-ness can be removed revealing Ken and Barbie like naughty bits. That's right, Ken and Barbie like.

What's really great is how he calls The Sims 2 a paedophile training tool... or something to that effect.

[edit] I'm a dumbass who was sitting on a post he was writing for just too darn long. [/edit]

(edited by Fuzzy Logic on 23.7.05 0330)
BigSteve
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#33 Posted on 23.7.05 1432.14
Reposted on: 23.7.12 1433.40
    Originally posted by vsp
      Originally posted by WhoTookMyHonor?
      In any case-
      Lets take a look at this issue from a different point of view;

      Mowing people down with an AK, Blowing up an ambulance and killing Poilcemen by the dozens- "Mature".

      Seeing two pixelated people 'have sex'- "Adults Only".

      Whats wrong with this picture?


    Better still:

    A game in which you can violently and premeditatedly stick a knife into a woman, killing her, is rated more suitable for younger audiences than one in which you can stick something different into a woman with which she WANTS to be stuck.

    THAT'S a priority check.






It really shouldn't be that much of a priority check or surprising. Just look at basic cable. You can see any number of Schwarzeneggar or Stallone shoot 'em up movies pretty much unedited, but when is the last time you saw a sex act (other than rolling around under the covers 'naked') or full frontal nudity? Probably never. Whether or not that is where the line should be drawn, I dunno, but it certainly isn't surprising to me that this is the type of content where video game raters and various lawmakers chose to "draw the line" so to speak.


    Yeah, now I guess we have to protect teens from their own sexual impulses.

    That's right, it's the video game makers fault that your child downloaded a patch that allowed him to view simulated sex scenes in said video game.


I don't understand your point. It was the video game maker's fault because it was accessible feature on their product, even if it was not meant to be used. Whether or not they did this intentionally, the scene was still part of their product. I see no reason that they shouldn't be forced to change the game's rating (though I agree that the senators ought to be doing something more productive than going after a video game).
Mr. Boffo
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#34 Posted on 23.7.05 1823.32
Reposted on: 23.7.12 1825.06
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    I don't understand your point. It was the video game maker's fault because it was accessible feature on their product, even if it was not meant to be used. Whether or not they did this intentionally, the scene was still part of their product. I see no reason that they shouldn't be forced to change the game's rating (though I agree that the senators ought to be doing something more productive than going after a video game).


Maybe we're quibbling on semantics. I don't know. But if it's something that is impossible to view without modifying files, then I wouldn't say it was "accessable". It was on the disk, sure. Like Guru said, there are often things made inaccesable on disks, due to time constraints. Didn't KOTOR2 have like a whole Dark Side ending deleted from it?

I mean, it's not like kids just stumble upon this (just like they can't just turn on a broadcast TV channel and see nudity). They have to install the mod. Ground your kids for doing it, sure. But any time a parent finds their children doing something that they don't like, then it's always the company who made it that gets in trouble.
BigSteve
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#35 Posted on 23.7.05 2001.36
Reposted on: 23.7.12 2001.38
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
      Originally posted by BigSteve
      I don't understand your point. It was the video game maker's fault because it was accessible feature on their product, even if it was not meant to be used. Whether or not they did this intentionally, the scene was still part of their product. I see no reason that they shouldn't be forced to change the game's rating (though I agree that the senators ought to be doing something more productive than going after a video game).


    Maybe we're quibbling on semantics. I don't know. But if it's something that is impossible to view without modifying files, then I wouldn't say it was "accessable". It was on the disk, sure. Like Guru said, there are often things made inaccesable on disks, due to time constraints. Didn't KOTOR2 have like a whole Dark Side ending deleted from it?

    I mean, it's not like kids just stumble upon this (just like they can't just turn on a broadcast TV channel and see nudity). They have to install the mod. Ground your kids for doing it, sure. But any time a parent finds their children doing something that they don't like, then it's always the company who made it that gets in trouble.


Oh, I don't think that the company should be in trouble for corrupting the fragile mind of children or anything. All I think is that now that this file is essentially accessible to anyone who wants to use it, the developer should take steps to either change the game's rating or to remove the scene from the game.
ekedolphin
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#36 Posted on 24.7.05 0123.12
Reposted on: 24.7.12 0124.40
I may sound like I'm taking the side of the anti-game crusaders (I'm not), but Rockstar should have known better. Why would they make such a minigame and then make it inaccessible? It had to be that they realized at the eleventh hour that it was a bad idea and decided to take steps to prevent people from playing that part of the game.

I mean, someone must have thrown up a red flag and said, "Whoawhoawhoa, this isn't a good idea," otherwise they wouldn't have blocked the content from the full game. Perhaps that same person should also have been there at the time the mini-game was put in in the first place, to say, "Hold on a second, this is a bad idea, this is gonna get us an AO rating, it'll incite Congress to lethal vengeance because of their dogma that 'kids have to be protected from this crap'", and so on, and so forth.

It's possible that they could have chosen to remove the mini-game entirely from the game. But there are games to be sold, deadlines to be upheld, and millions of people are gonna be pissed off at you if you take an extra month to delete content from the game that you shouldn't have put in there in the first place. So they went ahead and released it anyway, and sat in a corner and hoped no one would notice. And then, when the truth came out, Rockstar decided to lie about it. "The whole thing's the work of modders!" Sorry, but it's on the PS2 version of the game, as well-- that's literally impossible.

So don't cry for Rockstar, they knew what they were doing, and they decided to go ahead with it. As I'm sure I've made perfectly clear, I don't think that consensual sex between two people (nearly fully clothed, for that matter) should be the straw that broke the camel's back. But Rockstar's not that stupid-- they know that's the way things are in America, and that in a lot of ways people are just as angered by the subterfuge as they are by the actual content.

On the other hand, going after EA is just going to result in the video game crusaders getting their asses handed to them.

(edited by ekedolphin on 24.7.05 0223)
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#37 Posted on 24.7.05 0212.20
Reposted on: 24.7.12 0213.02
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    But there are games to be sold, deadlines to be upheld, and millions of people are gonna be pissed off at you if you take an extra month to delete content from the game that you shouldn't have put in there in the first place.


I take issue with this. If they'd left this in the game, and it'd gotten them an AO rating - so what? If anything, the game would've sold MORE copies as people would want to find out what could possibly be any worse than what goes on in GTA3 and Vice City.

This is a video game, it's a piece of entertainment and a work of art, same as any movie/television show/book. There is no rulebook that says, "These types of thing can't be in video games" and I think it's stupid to act like there is.

Certain forms of content deserve certain types of ratings, that's where the line is drawn, and that's where this business should stop.



That said - shame on Rockstar for not being honest and upfront about where the content came from. The should have said: "The content in question was thought to be inappropriate for the game, and was thus made inaccessible. The only way to access that content is by illegally modifying the game." and refused to do anything about it.


    Originally posted by GTA 3 Game Manual: Warranty section
    ... Further, you may not modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, or translate the Program or accompanying documentation, or any portion or component of the Program or accompanying documentation, nor may you make any copies of the Program modules for use with other programs.


Yup. Sounds illegal to me.

-Jag
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#38 Posted on 24.7.05 1026.18
Reposted on: 24.7.12 1028.44
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Rockstar ever explicitly stating why the content in question was *removed* from the original game. I think everyone's been supposing it was because it would affect the rating, but maybe its possible that Rockstar wasn't happy with how it turned out. Maybe they decided that a sex mini-game where the parties remained clothed was dumb (and they weren't willing to use nudity because that would clearly raise the rating) so they decided to scrap it. Or maybe after playing it, they decided it just wasn't all that fun. There are several reasons for that game existing and not being used in the final version and not all of them involve the potential rating the game would get.

Jaguar, the big beef with the AO rating is that not all retailers (read: Wal-Mart) carry AO games. The explicit rating might draw more interest, but what good does that do you if a large portion of your customer base can't get the game? (Of course, if you're able to mod your game to see the content in question, you'd be able to bypass Wal-Mart and get your AO GTA, so all that hiding the content did was allow everyone access to the "normal" GTA game.)
ekedolphin
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#39 Posted on 25.7.05 0014.31
Reposted on: 25.7.12 0017.05
In fact, the vast majority of retailers will not carry games with an AO rating. Wal-Mart, Blockbuster, Best Buy, Circuit City, GameStop, EB Games, and Amazon are no longer selling new copies of the game, and most of those companies presumably aren't selling used copies either-- at least, Blockbuster isn't. (Amazon is still allowing the sale of used copies of the game, although obviously they're sold by Amazon customers, and not by Amazon itself.)

The only place you might be able to find a new copy of it now would probably be a mom-and-pop video game store. I assume that everyone who wants a PS2 copy of San Andreas already has one, but the XBox and PC versions of the game had been out for less than a month before the AO rating was slapped on them.

Hell, I figure while they're at it, Rockstar should begin manufacturing (in limited quantities) a completely uncensored, AO-rated version of the game, for people who actually want to play the Hot Coffee mini-game and don't feel the need to hack. In for a penny, in for a pound, I guess. (Of course, this would destroy Rockstar's quickly-manufactured and obviously disingenous explanation for the Hot Coffee mini-game's entire existence.)

But overall, I shouldn't have to convince you that Rockstar screwed up-- no doubt their third-quarter earnings reports will make that point for me. Nothing quite like cold, hard numbers to back up one's opinion.

Yet I still think the outrage by Congress and subsequent bitchslap by the ESRB were unwarranted. Why sex is soooo much more dangerous and harmful to children than drug-dealing, gambling, and poppin' a cap in someone's head, I'll never know.
ShotGunShep
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#40 Posted on 25.7.05 1014.19
Reposted on: 25.7.12 1017.23
Everybody needs to stop blaming Rockstar before we know the facts. It is common for individual programmers to put their own signatures on programs. This could very well just be the work of some overworked, and undersexed programmers.
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