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The 7 - Sports that aren't Baseball, Football, Basketball, or Hockey - Aw Dammit Toney you idiot Register and log in to post!
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Eddie Famous
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#1 Posted on 10.5.05 2240.11
Reposted on: 10.5.12 2240.22
From BoxingNews.com:

"Newly crowned WBA heavyweight champion James Toney has reportedly tested positive for an anabolic steroid in a post-fight drug test. According to longtime boxing writer Wallace Matthews of Newsday, Toney's promoter Dan Goossen was informed Monday night by the New York State Athletic Commission that Toney had "tested positive for a banned substance that is not a narcotic." The paper quotes another source as saying the substance was nandrolone. If this report is accurate, the bout would be declared a no contest, and John Ruiz, who came out of retirement yesterday, would stand to regain his former WBA crown."

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JayJayDean
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#2 Posted on 11.5.05 0811.54
Reposted on: 11.5.12 0812.37
Oh, THAT's what you meant.

DAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMITDAMMIT

Toney certainly didn't LOOK like he was on steroids, did he? He was going to fight Byrd on July 23, too! DAMMIT
Leroy
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#3 Posted on 11.5.05 1647.25
Reposted on: 11.5.12 1652.21
Another source:

Toney stripped of world title victory over doping

    Originally posted by From the Article
    Earlier Wednesday, Toney's promoter, Dan Goossen, issued a statement on behalf of the boxer denying he had consciously taken any performance enhancers.

    "His doctor has stated that the combination of medications used to control the inflammation and tissue growth caused the positive test result."


The commission wouldn't specify the nature of the drugs found, but even if it's not "performance enhancers", it's still disappointing. The division was finally looking to get SOMEONE to step forward as the main guy. Guess we'll have to wait a bit longer...

(edited by Leroy on 11.5.05 1448)
redsoxnation
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#4 Posted on 11.5.05 2050.22
Reposted on: 11.5.12 2052.44
To show yet again how much in the shitter the heavyweight division has fallen: Even when John Ruiz loses a bout (Jones, Toney), the World Title belt magically returns to him. From retired ex-champ to world title holder in only a few days. No, Ruiz doesn't have the devil on speed dial, it is just a coincidence.
Sobriquet
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#5 Posted on 11.5.05 2110.19
Reposted on: 11.5.12 2111.32
    Originally posted by Leroy
    The division was finally looking to get SOMEONE to step forward as the main guy. Guess we'll have to wait a bit longer...

    (edited by Leroy on 11.5.05 1448)


Look, I'll be the first to admit Ruiz is/was a boring fighter. He's hardly the best fighter in the division. But he's a decent guy. Toney is a trash-talking piece of garbage who hasn't legitimatly beaten ANYBODY in the heavyweight division. He's no respect for the sport or its competitors. Suggesting that he was somehow the "main guy" is ridiculous. He's a blown up middleweight (re: too fat and unwilling to train for a fight at his natural weight class) with losses to Montell Griffin and some canuck named Drake Thadzi. Hardly "the real deal". He's got as much claim to Klitschko's title as Butterbean does.

Toney has said many times that heavyweight is his natural weight class -- I call BS on that one. If heavyweight were his natural weight class, why would he fight as a middleweight or cruiserweight when there's no money in those classes for the vast majority of fighters? He'd have broken in as a heavyweight and made the big bucks fighting Holyfield in his PRIME, rather than when he was a tired old fighter incapable of accepting retirement.

Toney's a vulture. A hyena. He saw a weak name in the heavyweight division and tried to steal his piece of the pie. Well, Toney's not Roy Jones Jr.

He took drugs, which we can assume helped him -- even if just a little bit -- in beating John Ruiz. The bottom line then is that Ruiz wasn't beaten, he was screwed by a corrupt fighter with a corrupt camp, and all the people who have slagged him should step off.

Mediocre boxer or not, I'll take a clean Ruiz over a dirty Toney any day of the week. Could Toney beat Ruiz clean? Who knows? If he could, maybe he wouldn't have taken the performance enhancers.

And yeah, I'm well aware that many, many boxers use performance enhancing drugs. It's a huge problem. I know it's a pipe dream, but let's hope this is a step in the right direction towards cleaning the sport up.
Eddie Famous
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#6 Posted on 12.5.05 0931.20
Reposted on: 12.5.12 0931.29
    Originally posted by Sobriquet
    all the people who have slagged him should step off...Could Toney beat Ruiz clean? Who knows? If he could, maybe he wouldn't have taken the performance enhancers.


Ruiz is and will remain, a freaking joke of a champion.

The saddest part is that Toney would have beaten Ruiz just as easily without whatever he spiked himself with. Ruiz fought like the idiot he is, acting scared of the "blown-up middleweight".

    Originally posted by Sobriquet
    Toney has said many times that heavyweight is his natural weight class -- I call BS on that one. If heavyweight were his natural weight class, why would he fight as a middleweight or cruiserweight when there's no money in those classes for the vast majority of fighters?


Toney has repeatedly said his walking around weight was usually in the 200s. That's heavyweight. Evander Holyfield was a built-up cruiserweight. Roy Jones was a built-up middleweight.

Toney massacred a Holyfield two years after Ruiz split three fights with him by decisions. If you throw out Holyfield for Toney, you have to for Ruiz. What does that leave Ruiz with for opponents? Very very little.

And for a "quiet" man, Ruiz does more whining than anyone else in the division. He's a sack of crap.
JayJayDean
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#7 Posted on 12.5.05 0938.09
Reposted on: 12.5.12 0940.01
Dang, that's some serious hating on Toney, there.

It's not inconceivable that a guy would fight at middleweight who feels like he should be a heavyweight. Geez, Chris Byrd fought in the amateurs at 165, and HE's a heavyweight.

I think if Hopkins had had issues making weight at 160, he'd have had a similar career to Toney, as they have pretty similar skills and personalities.

Toney was 44-0-2 as a middleweight and super middleweight before he fought Roy in '94. I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that he was in the correct weight class. Michael Nunn was 36-0 and one of the best pound-for-pound when Toney knocked him out. Mike McCallum had one loss and Toney fought him to a draw then decisioned him in the rematch. He lost to Griffin right after the Jones fight and Griffin was undefeated at the time, and while Griffin was never a superstar (I think to be one as a 5-foot-7 light heavy he'd have to be SPECIAL) he's been a solid top-ten fighter for a long time.

Toney didn't look bad as a heavyweight for his first fight with Evander, when he weighed in at 217, but he's had a couple of bad injuries that made it difficult for him to get in looks-shape. He still outworked Ruiz for twelve rounds. (Of course, that'd could've been the STEROIDS.)

Does anyone know if Goossen's claim that the body can naturally create Nandrolone in reaction to combinations of meds is feasible or not?

EDIT: I guess they've replaced Toney with Sergeui Lyakovich for Chris Byrd's defense on 7/23. Lyakovich is 22-1, but his recent win over Dominick Guinn looks less and less impressive all the time and his loss is a 9th-round KO is 12-loss superstar Maurice Harris (aka "the best fighter with 12 losses", except he lost to Fres Oquendo for his 13th loss right after he beat Lyakovich).

(edited by JayJayDean on 12.5.05 0742)
Sobriquet
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#8 Posted on 12.5.05 1106.42
Reposted on: 12.5.12 1107.32
    Originally posted by JJD
    Toney was 44-0-2 as a middleweight and super middleweight before he fought Roy in '94. I'd say that's a pretty good indicator that he was in the correct weight class.


But that was precisely my point -- Toney is a blown up middleweight, not a natural heavyweight as he claims. At this point in his career, he's too fat, too lazy, perhaps too injury prone, to cut weight and get into shape to fight at his natural weight: middleweight to light heavyweight.

Picture James Toney fighting a prime Evander Holyfield or prime Mike Tyson. He'd get murdered. Absolutely massacred. The fact he beat a mediocre champion in John Ruiz and likely needed steroids to do it just makes him an absolute joke, not the possible "main guy". My mention of losses to Griffin and Thadzi wasn't meant to diminish them, only to show that he wasn't even the best in his natural weight class, let alone the best in one 60 lbs heavier.

Yes, Toney was an excellent middleweight to lt. heavyweight fighter. In his prime, one could argue that only Jones Jr. was more effective (with all due respect to Michalczewski, who unfortunately fought neither man). But the fact remains he has a history of lazy training (re: the Thadzi fight) leading up to a stint as a puffy cruiserweight.

Then Jones Jr. beats Ruiz in March of 03. A blown up Toney, having beaten Jirov as a cruiserweight, sees a big, fat, juicy opportunity in the heavyweight division to make a name for himself. The top guys were has-been legends, also-rans, and never-quite-made-its. Even Lewis, the king of the division at the time, was fading fast (re: the controversial Klitschko fight and long-rumoured retirement). And key to this is that there were some relatively light-punching heavyweights at the top of the rankings (Ruiz, Byrd, Sanders, etc) that a smaller man like Toney could bang with and not fear the KO.

So Toney adds some MORE weight, steps up another class, beats a shadow of Holyfield, an unheralded prospect in Rydell Booker, and lands himself a shot at Ruiz.

Please. And this guy is the saviour of the heavyweight division?

Steroid using trash talking disrespectful garbage. Ya, I'm a Toney hater. Maybe if the guy showed a bit more class throughout his career, maybe if he showed as much dedication to his craft as the other "top" guys do, maybe if he wasn't trying to delude boxing fans into believing he's a natural heavyweight to take advantage of a weak division... maybe if he didn't take 'roids, maybe then I wouldn't loathe him.

Now, all this being said, there is the chance it was a false positive. It happens. Especially with Nandrolone (which has been the centre of controversy the last few years). Google it, and you'll see what I mean.

Of course, most of the excuses given by these athletes for their false positives are... sketchy at best. "I had sex with my pregnant wife, and it caused my nandrolone levels to skyrocket". The only reputable study on it I've seen shows some corralation between high protein dietary shakes, heavy training, and dehydration. But that's not what Goossen is claiming.

Besides, these guys know the tests, they know what's being tested for, and consequently they should know what to be careful of. They know what's going in their bodies and the effects therein. False positive? In this case, I seriously doubt it.
JayJayDean
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#9 Posted on 12.5.05 1150.29
Reposted on: 12.5.12 1150.55
    Originally posted by Sobriquet
    Then Jones Jr. beats Ruiz in March of 03. A blown up Toney, having beaten Jirov as a cruiserweight, sees a big, fat, juicy opportunity in the heavyweight division to make a name for himself. The top guys were has-been legends, also-rans, and never-quite-made-its. Even Lewis, the king of the division at the time, was fading fast (re: the controversial Klitschko fight and long-rumoured retirement). And key to this is that there were some relatively light-punching heavyweights at the top of the rankings (Ruiz, Byrd, Sanders, etc) that a smaller man like Toney could bang with and not fear the KO.


Setting aside the fact that noone was calling Toney the savior of the heavyweight divison (more like an appealing addition), that doesn't make sense on a couple of levels. One, the Ruiz-Jones fight was 3/1/03, but Toney-Jirov wasn't until 4/26/03. Lennox Lewis was coming off his destruction of Mike Tyson and was scheduled to fight Kirk Johnson on 6/14/03, and at the time no one was disputing that Lennox was the heavyweight king. Chris Byrd was the IBF heavyweight champ having beaten Holyfield for the belt and Corrie Sanders had just KOed Wladimir Klitschko in two rounds to win the WBO title.

Between Lennox and Jones, you've got a two of the top fighters around, Byrd was a matchup problem who nobody wanted to fight and Sanders, if anything, is about as far from a "light-punching heavyweight" as you can get. I think Toney saw fights with Byrd or Jones as appealing if he fought at heavyweight.

The fact is that there is no MONEY in fighting at cruiserweight, so I would bet you that Toney made five-to-ten times the purse from the Jirov fight for his win over Holyfield. Given that, plus the fact that he wouldn't have to cut any weight, AND that Jones and Byrd, two guys his size, held title belts, I think those are pretty darn good reasons for Toney to fight at heavyweight.

(edited by JayJayDean on 12.5.05 0951)
Sobriquet
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#10 Posted on 14.5.05 1410.53
Reposted on: 14.5.12 1413.08
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    The saddest part is that Toney would have beaten Ruiz just as easily without whatever he spiked himself with.


How do you know? How do I know he wouldn't have? Neither of us do. That's just an arbitrary assessment, nothing more.

    Originally posted by Eddit Famous
    Toney has repeatedly said his walking around weight was usually in the 200s. That's heavyweight. Evander Holyfield was a built-up cruiserweight. Roy Jones was a built-up middleweight.


I don't care what Toney claims his walking around weight is. Butterbean's walking around weight is 350 some lbs, but that doesn't mean it's his "ideal weight", now does it? George Foreman "walks around" somewhere about 260 or 270 I believe these days, but it's not his "ideal weight" either. Toney "walks around" at 240 because he's fat and lazy and almost assuredly blown up on roids, not because it's his ideal fighting weight. His ideal fighting weight is probably somewhere between 160 and 175 -- it's impossible to say, but the guy's 5'9" and quite obviously does not have the kind of physical togetherness that a Mike Tyson does at a similar height (who, to compare, is 2 inches taller than Toney yet around 10 lbs lighter).

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Toney massacred a Holyfield two years after Ruiz split three fights with him by decisions. If you throw out Holyfield for Toney, you have to for Ruiz. What does that leave Ruiz with for opponents? Very very little.


You'll notice that I started with "I'll be the first to admit Ruiz is/was a boring fighter". I don't like watching him. I think it's rather amusing that he's a "heavyweight champion". But the bottom line is Toney didn't beat him legitimatly. As for Holyfield splitting fights with Ruiz... "two years earlier" is the key phrase. Holyfield was downward spiraling, but he wasn't THAT far down the spiral yet. He was that much older, that much more tired, that much slower against Toney.

Besides, as I said before, I DON'T THINK RUIZ IS A GOOD FIGHTER. So let's get off this. I'm not defending Ruiz. I'm pointing out that Toney is garbage, and all this hatred for Ruiz is unfair. Dislike his fighting style, sure. Don't watch his fights -- hey, I don't watch them either. Disrespect and lay the hate on him while praising a shit like Toney? No... that's unfair.

Anyway.

    Originally posted by JJD
    Setting aside the fact that noone was calling Toney the savior of the heavyweight divison


On the contrary, JJD, LOTS of people were calling Toney the savior of the heavyweight division. From boxing forums to sports writers, Toney was often referred to as the savior, , possible savior, maybe the savior, the heavyweight savior, or just short of it. For the past few months, when people have been talking about "savior of the heavyweight division", they've almost always mentioned Toney's name. Heck, ever since he beat Holyfield there's been rumblings of this.

If I remember correctly, no less a luminary than The Ring magazine suggested Toney was the savior of the heavyweight division not long after naming him their 2003 fighter of the year for beating Jirov and Holyfield. Can't find the article, but I distinctly recall reading it. Here's some others, just for kicks:

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxing_forum/index.php/topic,12765.0.html
http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=1077
http://www.boxingtalk.net/pages/free3112.htm
http://boulderdirt.com/sports/article.cfm/2650
http://www.braggingrightscorner.com/jonesheavy_2_100904.html

Oh oh oh... here's a guy comparing him to no less than Muhammed Ali! Now that's a trip: http://www.knotmag.com/?article=1234

There's lots of articles if you look -- it's a little unfortunate that many of the more mainstream sources pull their articles after a few weeks/months.

Nevertheless, Leroy here even used the words "the main guy", and that we'd have to wait a little longer now that Toney's been nailed for doping. Toney would have been the main guy for beating John freaking Ruiz? Please...

Toney needed the Jirov fight to get his phone ringing again. He had been stuck in cruiserweight hell for 5 years. People had forgotten about Toney at that point. That's why he fought at Cruiserweight -- where there's NO MONEY -- because nobody wanted him anywhere else after his loss to Thadzi. The Jirov fight was already booked at the time Jones beat Ruiz; nobody thought Toney would win the Jirov fight, let alone move up and do what Jones did.

Well, he won the Jirov fight, and did so handily. People began to wonder if maybe Toney could be the next Jones. They remembered that at one time, the guy could seriously bang. And all of a sudden his phone started ringing again. He could either cut weight and fight at light heavy for decent money -- maybe a rematch with Jones closer to their ideal weights -- or put on some more pounds and make big bucks at heavy. He saw the opportunity to step up to heavyweight, and he took it.

As for Sanders & Byrd -- well, I suppose it comes down to opinion. Sanders punches hard, but IMO he is not a one-punch knockout artist, and thus Toney didn't necessarily need to fear his power should he end up facing it. Byrd is a light puncher, as I said, and a perfect match for Toney at heavy. Sanders' win over Wladamir did more to expose Wladamir as less than what we thought he was than it did to solidify Sanders as a force or peg him as a KO artist.

Then, when Jones vacated his belt to go back to LHW, Ruiz came back in the picture and reclaimed his belt against Rahman -- Ruiz, heavyweight champion, the perfect target for Toney's bid to become a five division champ.

Anyway, in other news, of interesting note is that Toney won't be challenging the ruling against him.

http://www.sportinglife.com/boxing/news/story_get.dor?STORY_NAME=boxing/05/05/14/BOXING_Toney.html

If he truly did nothing wrong, he'd challenge it. You don't get accused of something like this and say "oh no, I'm innocent... but ya, punish the hell out of me anyway". Especially when you're a supposed fighter.
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