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The 7 - Sports that aren't Baseball, Football, Basketball, or Hockey - James Toney: World Heavyweight Champion Register and log in to post!
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JayJayDean
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#1 Posted on 2.5.05 0839.12
Reposted on: 2.5.12 0840.38
That was at least a non-waste of an hour of my life, as somehow John Ruiz decided NOT to go all Greco-Roman on James Toney, even though it most likely cost him his version of the title. I think Ruiz couldn't believe that Toney, at 5' 9" and not looking fit, could hurt him or last twelve rounds, but I thought Ruiz was stunned a couple of times and Toney did a great job controlling the action.

I definitely thought this was Roy Jones' WORST performance as a color guy, though, regardless of the fact that he turned out to be correct. He was REALLY coming across as a big Toney cheerleader, annoyingly so. There's NO WAY you could say that Toney (again 5' 9", and lets say an in-shape 220), could be thought of as the favorite against Vitali Klitschko (6' 8", 250). Klitschko's got too much skill, and I think he'd dominate the fight with his jab and straight right-hand.

At least they're starting to weed out some of these heavyweights. I thought Don King's pre-fight rhetoric was just silly, but there's already kind of a de facto tournament going on. Toney beat Ruiz, sending Ruiz to retirement, and Lamon Brewster fights Andrew Golota on May 21, and SOMEDAY Vitali Klitschko will fight Hasim Rahman (assuming Rahman gets by Monte Barrett on July 23). Chris Byrd should fight Joe Mesi (if Mesi says he can fight, I say let him fight), and you've got four winners to match against each other.

Also, Sam Peter destroyed Gilbert Martinez in three rounds Friday night. Martinez is no great shakes, but he's fought some decent heavyweights like Michael Grant, Jeremy Williams, Kirk Johnson and Clifford Etienne, and had never been stopped in fewer than four rounds before. Peter just overwhelmed him, and it will be fun to see him step up against some better competition.
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spf
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#2 Posted on 2.5.05 1105.39
Reposted on: 2.5.12 1108.34
The only quibble I have with the post is the Joe Mesi part. Apparently doctors believe he may have had THREE subdural hematomas (sports.yahoo.com). To let that guy get into a ring with a heavyweight boxer is just begging for a tragedy to happen.

Otherwise, I do like the movement in the heavyweight division as of late. Hopefully in the next year we'll get Klitschko vs. Rahman, Toney vs. Byrd, and Brewster/Golota vs. some decent fighter. That would get us down to three belt-holders hopefully, at which point you could look to maybe Toney/Byrd vs. WBO champ, with the winner of that aiming at Klitschko.

And you give me 2:1, and I'll lay cash down on Toney vs. Klitschko.

(edited by spf on 2.5.05 1107)
JayJayDean
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#3 Posted on 2.5.05 1212.29
Reposted on: 2.5.12 1215.19
    Originally posted by spf
    The only quibble I have with the post is the Joe Mesi part. Apparently doctors believe he may have had THREE subdural hematomas (sports.yahoo.com). To let that guy get into a ring with a heavyweight boxer is just begging for a tragedy to happen.


Did you see Mesi on Friday Night Fights? He said (paraphrasing) that boxers have that happen regularly, and that he's being treated differently because he (silly, him) went to a doctor and had it diagnosed, and he's got experts that say he's fine now and fit to fight. If that's he case, I think he should be able to fight.

(Also, there isn't really another guy to plug in there, if you consider it premature to put Sam Peter in the mix.)
Eddie Famous
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#4 Posted on 2.5.05 1902.17
Reposted on: 2.5.12 1903.29
I hope Ruiz retires. He certainly was at least one of the five worst heavyweight champions in history. He became the only man to lose the heavyweight championship two seperate times to former middleweight champs.

Now if someone could finish Byrd...

and Larry Merchant would shut the hell up.
ekedolphin
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#5 Posted on 4.5.05 2215.21
Reposted on: 4.5.12 2215.25
Wow. I read the Wikipedia article on Ruiz to educate myself, and I don't think either of those reigns (particularly the second reign) should be considered legitimate. At the same time, the way Ruiz won the title for the second time, while bogus, was through no fault of his own-- Klitschko and Tua didn't want to fight Rahman for an "interim" title and a chance to face Jones, and so Ruiz fought him and won-- and then Jones left the heavyweight division.

Sheesh, maybe the WBA should rename itself to WCW. I kid, I kid.
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#6 Posted on 5.5.05 1058.55
Reposted on: 5.5.12 1059.01
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    Wow. I read the Wikipedia article on Ruiz to educate myself, and I don't think either of those reigns (particularly the second reign) should be considered legitimate.


I, like everyone, detested watching John Ruiz fight, but I think you're being way too harsh on his accomplishments, because Ruiz has actually done as much as any other recent heavyweight, including Lennox Lewis.

11/13/99: Lennox Lewis/Evander Holyfield II: Lewis wins the undisputed heavyweight title via unanimous decision in a close fight that showed Holyfield still, at 38, had reason to believe he could possibly regain the heavyweight title. The WBA subsequently stripped Lewis of its title for choosing to fight Michael Grant instead of its #1 contender, John Ruiz, who was 36-3, and had won eleven fights in a row with ten KOs after losing to David Tua in 19 seconds on 3/15/96. Holyfield is named the #2 contender by the WBA, setting up Holyfield/Ruiz I.

4-29-00: Lennox Lewis defends his WBC and IBF titles with an easy 2nd-round KO of unbeaten but untested Michael Grant (31-0). Grant is knocked down four times, and in his next fight is KOed by unheralded Jameel McCline (25-2-3) in :43 of round one after breaking his ankle while being knocked down by McCline's first punch of the fight.

7-15-00: After suffering a KO loss to Mike Tyson and fighting Shannon Briggs to a draw, Franz Botha (40-2-1) is given a title shot against Lewis. Lewis retains with an easy 2nd-round TKO.

8-12-00: Holyfield/Ruiz I is won by Holyfield by a razor-thin unanimous decision, with Ruiz losing on two judges' cards by one point, meaning a round was scored 10-8 for Holyfield despite there being no knockdowns or point deductions in the fight, and costing Ruiz a majority draw. Holyfield wins a recognized version of the heavyweight title for the fourth time.

11-11-00: Lewis easily outpoints Daid Tua (37-1) to retain the WBC and IBF titles via unaminous decision, with the 6'5" Lewis controlling the 5'10" Tua throughout with his jab.

3-3-01: Holyfield/Ruiz II is won by Ruiz via unanimous decision, becoming only the third fight to knock down Holyfield in the 11th round. Ruiz wins the WBA title for the first time, becoming the first Latino heavyweight champion.

4-22-01: An out-of-shape Lewis (253 1/2 lbs) is KOed in round 5 by Hasim Rahman, losing the title via KO as an overwhelming favorite for the second time.

11-17-01: An in-shape Lewis (246 1/2 lbs) regains the WBC and IBF titles with a 4th-round knockout of Rahman.

12-15-01: Holyfield/Ruiz III ends in a draw in an ugly fight that should never be spoken of again. Ruiz retains his title.

6-8-02: Lewis retains the WBC title with an easy 8th-round TKO of about-to-turn-36-year-old Mike Tyson. After the fight, Lewis vacates the IBF title rather than fight their #1 contender, Chris Byrd.

7-7-02: Ruiz fights WBA #1 contender Kirk Johnson (32-0-1) and while the favored Johnson seems to control more of the action and land more blows, he is actually behind on all three judges scorecards when he is disqualified for repeated low blows in the 10th.

12-14-02: IBF #1 contender Chris Byrd defeats Evander Holyfield to win the IBF title by unanimous decision. Holyfield had defeated Hasim Rahman by technical decision in Jun to earn the title shot, but the now 40-year old Holyfield is easily outpointed by the slick-boxing but light-punching Byrd.

3-1-03: Ruiz loses the WBA heavyweight title to undisputed light-heavyweight champion Roy Jones.

6-21-03: Lewis is behind on all three judges scorecards but retains his title with a 6th-round TKO of Vitali Klitschko (32-1), with the fight being stopped due to a cut over Klitschko's left eye.

9-20-03: IBF champion Byrd defeats the largely untested-Fres Oquendo via unanimous decison in a most thought was closer than the judges scored it. Oquendo was 24-1, but in his previous fight was behind on all three scorecards to a fighter with 12 losses before pulling out a 9th-round KO.

12-13-03: Ruiz defeats former WBC/IBF heavyweight champion Hasim Rahman via unanimous decision to win the WBA's interim heavyweight title, pending a rematch with Roy Jones. Jones decides to vacate the title and it is awarded to Ruiz, who becomes the WBA heavyweight champion for the second time.

2-6-04: Lewis retires. The WBC heayweight title is declared "vacant".

4-17-04: Ruiz defeats Fres Oquendo via TKO in the 11th-round to retain the WBA heavyweight title. Oquendo's loss to IBF titleholder Chris Byrd in his previous fight actually improved his stock going into the fight, and Ruiz was able to achieve the stoppage the Byrd was not.

On the same card, IBF champion Byrd defends his title against former contender Andrew Golota (38-4), who had two warm-up fights (KOs of guys with a combined 23 losses) following a three-year layoff leading up to this fight. Golota fights Byrd to a draw, and Byrd retains the IBF title.

4-24-04: WBC #1 contender Vitali Klitschko wins the WBC title by beating #2 contender Corrie Sanders, who had upset Wladimir Kitschko by KO in 2003, via a TKO in the 8th round.

11-13-04: Despite suffering two knockdowns and having a point deducted for low blows, Ruiz defeats Andrew Golota (38-4-1) by unanimous decision. Golota was coming off a draw with IBF champion Byrd in his previous fight.

Again fighting on the same card as Ruiz, Byrd overcomes a 2nd-round knockdown to win a split-decision over Jameel McCline to narrowly retain the IBF title.

12-11-04: WBC champion Klitschko retains his belt with a workmanlike 8th-round stoppage of Mike Tyson-conqueror (but otherwise unhearlded) Danny Williams (32-3), knocking down Williams four times en route to victory.

4-30-05: Ruiz loses to James Toney and retires. Allegedly.

The problem is clearly that Lewis didn't just fight Ruiz and make him go away, opting instead for the much easier fight with Grant (probably for more money, so I can't say I blame him). But Ruiz went 1-1-1 with a better Holyfield than Byrd fought (while Lewis was fighting the likes of Botha and Tyson - yay), and beat both Oquendo and Golota more decisively than Byrd was able. No one will argue that Klitschko is not clearly a better fight than Ruiz, but beating Sanders and Williams isn't exactly a huge accomplishment. His fight with a resurgent Rahman should decide who the "people's champ" is, but Rahman was down after losing going 0-3-1 in four fights which included a loss to Ruiz, and had to build himself back up to get into the now-postponed Klitschko fight.

In conclusion, we should all just pray that Sam Peter will become "The Man".

Eddie Famous
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#7 Posted on 5.5.05 1451.11
Reposted on: 5.5.12 1454.15
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    The WBA subsequently stripped Lewis of its title for choosing to fight Michael Grant instead of its #1 contender, John Ruiz, who was 36-3, and had won eleven fights in a row with ten KOs after losing to David Tua in 19 seconds on 3/15/96...(later) 11-11-00: Lewis easily outpoints Daid Tua (37-1) to retain the WBC and IBF titles via unaminous decision, with the 6'5" Lewis controlling the 5'10" Tua throughout with his jab.


So how does that translate into a competitive Ruiz/Lewis fight. If Lewis is in shape (and granted, that's a valid concern) Ruiz wouldn't have been able to touch him.

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    9-20-03: IBF champion Byrd defeats the largely untested-Fres Oquendo via unanimous decison in a most thought was closer than the judges scored it. Oquendo was 24-1, but in his previous fight was behind on all three scorecards to a fighter with 12 losses before pulling out a 9th-round KO....(later)4-17-04: Ruiz defeats Fres Oquendo via TKO in the 11th-round to retain the WBA heavyweight title. Oquendo's loss to IBF titleholder Chris Byrd in his previous fight actually improved his stock going into the fight, and Ruiz was able to achieve the stoppage the Byrd was not.


Scoring of the Ruiz-Oquendo fight according to boxrec.com: 96-94 | 96-94 | 95-95 majority for Ruiz. So hardly a dominating performance either against a thoroughly average Oquendo.

Also, the "man with 12 losses" Maurice Harris is a well-known tough trialhorse who had beaten the likes of Serguei Lyakhovich (unbeaten at the time), Jeremy Williams (lopsided unanimous decision) and Jimmy Thunder (by KO, where Ruiz could only eke out a split decision).

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    7-7-02: Ruiz fights WBA #1 contender Kirk Johnson (32-0-1) and while the favored Johnson seems to control more of the action and land more blows, he is actually behind on all three judges scorecards when he is disqualified for repeated low blows in the 10th.


Johnson is ONLY behind because of points deducted for previous low blows in the fight. Scoring from boxrec: Judge: Patricia Jarman 84-85 | Judge: Jerry Roth 84-85 | Judge: Dave Moretti 83-86.

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    3-1-03: Ruiz loses the WBA heavyweight title to undisputed light-heavyweight champion Roy Jones.


Jones then immediately won a majority decision and then got kayoed by two light heavyweights.

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    Holyfield/Ruiz II is won by Ruiz via unanimous decision, becoming only the third fight to knock down Holyfield in the 11th round. Ruiz wins the WBA title for the first time, becoming the first Latino heavyweight champion.


1. Ruiz is Latino as much as Rocky Marciano was Italian, I guess, since they were both born in MA.

2. Holyfield was 38 years old at the time of the fight, and not even a shell of his former self.

3. From the time he recieved an unearned draw with Lewis in 1999, through the snoozefest trilogy with Ruiz until his most recent fight, Holyfield is 2-5-2. His only wins being the (probably undeserved) win over Ruiz, and the SPLIT DECISION technical win over Rahman (another of the worst Heavyweight champs of all time).

Holyfield could have very well been 0-9 with fair judgung, or at best 1-8.


In summary, no matter how ya put it, Ruiz sucks so bad.

All time worst heavyweight champs:
1. Bruce Seldon
2. John Ruiz
3. Leon Spinks
4. Oliver McCall
5. Hasim Rahman
JayJayDean
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#8 Posted on 5.5.05 1557.52
Reposted on: 5.5.12 1559.01
Oooh...this is going to get UGLY with the quoting of quoted quotes. I will do my best.

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      The WBA subsequently stripped Lewis of its title for choosing to fight Michael Grant instead of its #1 contender, John Ruiz, who was 36-3, and had won eleven fights in a row with ten KOs after losing to David Tua in 19 seconds on 3/15/96...(later) 11-11-00: Lewis easily outpoints Daid Tua (37-1) to retain the WBC and IBF titles via unaminous decision, with the 6'5" Lewis controlling the 5'10" Tua throughout with his jab.


    So how does that translate into a competitive Ruiz/Lewis fight. If Lewis is in shape (and granted, that's a valid concern) Ruiz wouldn't have been able to touch him.


I thought my earlier statement "The problem is clearly that Lewis didn't just fight Ruiz and make him go away" did enough to imply that of course I think Lewis would have beaten Ruiz. My bad if it didn't. I DID mean to imply that I didn't find fault with Ruiz being the #1 contender, based on his record.

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      9-20-03: IBF champion Byrd defeats the largely untested-Fres Oquendo via unanimous decison in a most thought was closer than the judges scored it. Oquendo was 24-1, but in his previous fight was behind on all three scorecards to a fighter with 12 losses before pulling out a 9th-round KO....(later)4-17-04: Ruiz defeats Fres Oquendo via TKO in the 11th-round to retain the WBA heavyweight title. Oquendo's loss to IBF titleholder Chris Byrd in his previous fight actually improved his stock going into the fight, and Ruiz was able to achieve the stoppage the Byrd was not.
    Scoring of the Ruiz-Oquendo fight according to boxrec.com: 96-94 | 96-94 | 95-95 majority for Ruiz. So hardly a dominating performance either against a thoroughly average Oquendo.

    Also, the "man with 12 losses" Maurice Harris is a well-known tough trialhorse who had beaten the likes of Serguei Lyakhovich (unbeaten at the time), Jeremy Williams (lopsided unanimous decision) and Jimmy Thunder (by KO, where Ruiz could only eke out a split decision).


I remember Maurice Harris as the "best fighter with 12 losses around"-moniker, but I was trying mostly to point out the absurdity that Byrd was actually defending the IBF title against him under those circumstances. The fact that Oquendo represented himself well against Byrd and Ruiz speaks well of neither.

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      7-7-02: Ruiz fights WBA #1 contender Kirk Johnson (32-0-1) and while the favored Johnson seems to control more of the action and land more blows, he is actually behind on all three judges scorecards when he is disqualified for repeated low blows in the 10th.
    Johnson is ONLY behind because of points deducted for previous low blows in the fight. Scoring from boxrec: Judge: Patricia Jarman 84-85 | Judge: Jerry Roth 84-85 | Judge: Dave Moretti 83-86.


I deleted my reference to the points removal by mistake. Kirk Johnson could've saved us from some awful fights, the Canadian bastard!

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      3-1-03: Ruiz loses the WBA heavyweight title to undisputed light-heavyweight champion Roy Jones.


    Jones then immediately won a majority decision and then got kayoed by two light heavyweights.


So, you're implying that a "shot" Roy Jones beat Ruiz? I thought it had been pretty well accepted that Jones was hurt by the weight loss after the Ruiz fight.

    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Holyfield/Ruiz II is won by Ruiz via unanimous decision, becoming only the third fight to knock down Holyfield in the 11th round. Ruiz wins the WBA title for the first time, becoming the first Latino heavyweight champion.


    1. Ruiz is Latino as much as Rocky Marciano was Italian, I guess, since they were both born in MA.

    2. Holyfield was 38 years old at the time of the fight, and not even a shell of his former self.

    3. From the time he recieved an unearned draw with Lewis in 1999, through the snoozefest trilogy with Ruiz until his most recent fight, Holyfield is 2-5-2. His only wins being the (probably undeserved) win over Ruiz, and the SPLIT DECISION technical win over Rahman (another of the worst Heavyweight champs of all time).

    Holyfield could have very well been 0-9 with fair judgung, or at best 1-8.


I was only making a statement of fact about the Latino Champ-thing, not trying to list it as an accomplishment. And even at 38 Holyfield looked good in Lewis/Holyfield II. Of course he was going downhill, with Evander at 28 Ruiz wouldn't have made it five rounds, but he was ten times better in the Ruiz fights than he was against Byrd, and the fact is even after three awful Ruiz/Holyfield fights HOLYFIELD EARNED ANOTHER TITLE SHOT. That's just sad.

My real point of posting that was to compare the (sucky) Ruiz (who sucks) to the other heavyweights in the context of their "accomplishments", because Ruiz, despite sucking, stacks up favorably to Lewis, Byrd, the Klitschkos and about everybody else for the past six years or so. It's not like he lost to two barely above-average fighters, like Lennox did. Sure, they were blown-up ex-middleweights, but having those losses to James Toney and Roy Jones looks a LOT better than, say, Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman.

There are simply SO MANY ways we could've been rid of Ruiz. Lennox surely would've beaten him simply because I doubt seriously Ruiz could clutch-and-hold the stronger Lewis so much. Holyfield could've won Ruiz/Holyfield II. Krik Johnson could've and should've beaten him. Rahman could've beaten him. Jones could've (and in retrospect) should've stayed at heavyweight and had a rematch with Ruiz, which he surely would've won. It boggles the mind.
Eddie Famous
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#9 Posted on 5.5.05 1711.28
Reposted on: 5.5.12 1712.26
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    the (sucky) Ruiz (who sucks)


At least we agree on that!

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