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28.11.07 0241
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - ENOUGH OF THIS HHH POLITICS CRAP!!
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#21 Posted on 15.4.02 1429.05
Reposted on: 15.4.09 1430.42
There is really no comparison between HHH and Jericho. Helmsley's feud with Foley had more significance because Foley was on his way out. He was supposedly the one to end Foley's career. Having clean wins just made it that much better. He really didn't need a clean win to get over for that.

Jericho NEEDED a clean win over a top face to get the credibility that he never got. And now it's pretty obvious that it was politics. Jericho was holding the belts for HHH, for several reasons. He never had a chance at being a respectable champion. Until he beat the hell out of Helmsley with the sledgehammer.

Hopefully HHH won't be like his other Kliq members as far as not wanting to help anyone else move up. Because he can be just as dangerous, you know screwin the boss' daughter and all, and I have no doubts that he and HBK were well aware of the infamous 'Montreal screwjob'. I'm starting to get sick of him too.
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#22 Posted on 15.4.02 1438.17
Reposted on: 15.4.09 1440.13
"Rock's losses to Jericho were so fraught with screwjobs and most importantly outside interference that there was nothing to be gained at all for Jericho in those matches."

While Rock's jobs were not clean, they were as close to clean as you will get from a face in the WWF. Which helps Jericho more, Rock being pinned after an actual move done on a chair, or Austin being pinned after a belt shot from Booker T or nWo beat down?

I may be wrong about all this, but I think all the talk about politics is just people attempting to justify Jericho dropping the ball. And i do think he will get the belt again, and hopefully he do much better next time.

Edit: I did some quick research and I was wrong on one fact. Jericho beat Rock three time on ppv but it was over a four ppv span. Survivor Series they were on the same team. Anyway one of Rock's jobs was almost totally clean. It was a low blow, Rock Bottom combo that put him down for 3. Doesn't get much better than that, beating a man with his own finisher.

(edited by mskj on 15.4.02 1439)

(edited by mskj on 15.4.02 1449)
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#23 Posted on 15.4.02 1455.31
Reposted on: 15.4.09 1456.37

    Originally posted by mskj
    What you are saying is that HHH is what he is because Foley put him over on three straight ppv's. By this logic Jericho should have become just as big by beating Rock at three consecutive ppv's just last year. Heck, Rock is a much bigger name and draw than Foley so Jericho should be even bigger right? It just didn't happen and it wasn't because of politics. Most of the blame needs to go straight to Jericho.

    Why should HHH have jobbed to Jericho clean? Jericho was never very over as a heel, and HHH just came back from a big time injury. Jobbing HHH to Jericho, clean no less, would have done more to damage HHH than help Jericho.

    And before you say Rock's jobs to Jericho didn't mean as much as Foley's to HHH because they weren't totally clean, let me say this. There are no top faces in the WWF who job clean. None. Foley did it because he was on the way out and therefore he could afford to. The faces win clean and the heels cheat to win. That's the way it is. They follow a pattern, it is not political.



First off, you cannot have it both ways. Granted Foley was on his way out, but that doesn't mean he had to come back and put over HHH at Wrestlemania after losing to him in two PPV's already, AND being retired by him. But you mentioned something interesting about a clean victory isn't needed to get over... I agree, but the method he won or lost his matches was done poorly 99% of the time, clean or not. And you mentioned Jericho going over on Rock 3 consecutive times, well I'm going to do something a little better, I'm going to take every PPV match from last year's Royal Rumble leading up to Jericho's Wrestlemania loss (which meant nothing to the fans because they knew he was going to lose) to HHH. Let's see what happened:


  • RR 2k1 - Jericho beat Benoit in a ladder match for the IC belt. If I remember right this match was awesome, and where I was watching it the people were going nuts by the end. This match was good for both men.
  • NWO 2k1 - Jericho won a 4-way with Eddy, Benoit, and X-Pac. Last beating X-pac. I don't remember this match at all, so I'm assuming it did nothing to elevate him.
  • WM X-7 - Beat Regal. I didn't think this was a bad match, but not many thought it was anything great either. Did nothing for him... in fact I think this was one of those matches were people started saying he can't deliver at big events.
  • BLash - Lost to Regal. This match was terrible, and had that stupid dutchess of queensberry gimmick. Match was useless, and didn't help Jericho at all.
  • JDay - Jericho and Benoit won the Tag Team Turmoil match. If my memory serves correctly, this was the beginning of the push of the Chrises.
  • KoR - This was the end of the push of the Chrises. Vince gave up on this match a week in, and was the first time I saw the rug pulled from a wresltler's feet (in this case it was two wrestlers) before they had a chance to do anything. Oh, and he lost (but wasn't pinned)...
  • Invasion - was on the losing side of the Inaugural Brawl, luckily he wasn't pinned (it was Angle, which I could do a list on him as well). This angle is already dead and burried so this match meant nothing.
  • Summer Slam - He beat Rhyno... match meant nothing.
  • Unforgiven - Lost to RVD for the Hardcore Title. If I remember this was a good match, but it was for a meaningless Title, while Shane McMahon was in a match with Rock and Booker.
  • No Mercy - Beat Rock for WCW Title. Here is a perfect elevation match. Nothing was lost by Rocky losing, but all was gained for Jericho by winning, and it was a good match to boot.
  • Survivor Series - Jericho is eliminated, but on the winning team. He does eliminate 2 people (Shane and RVD) but is pinned by Austin. This match did nothing to hurt him and established him as one of the top guys in the WWF.
  • Vengance - Jericho beats Austin and Rock to win the Undisputed Title. Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with cheating to win for a heel as long as he plays off of the cheating (which he did at first).
  • RR 2k2 - This is where it begin with fans expecting him to lose the Title. Everybody was seeing him as a transition champ because of who he was going against, but he went over Rocky in this one with lots of HEEL~! cheating, which I loved. The problem here was there was no real follow up on why Storm and Christian helped him out, so in the eyes of the fans all they was a guy who couldn't beat the Rock on his own. Now if there was a reason there (A new stable forming) it would have made sense.
  • NWO 2k2 - a decent match with Jericho vs. Austin, but the focus was on when the nWo was going to come out. The show didn't even end with Jericho holding the Title in victory, it ended on another event all togehter.


Now looking at these matches, you can chart about three different pushes that Jericho went through in the course of 2001 into 2002. He had almost no momentum while HHH was around (hey I'm not saying anything, just stating a fact), and when HHH was gone Jericho was peaking. You can say many different things about his PPV matches, but the underlying fact is after all the matches he had in the end he is worse off than he was before his impending loss to HHH; again I am not trying to start anything.

Also, do you not see it completely as a transitional champion situation when a man holds a Title (the Undisputed Championship, consisting of 2 belts) and when the new guy wins it he gets 1 new Title (which was used to set up an angle isn't happening).

And there was that little thing about HHH saying Jericho was missing something that would make him a main eventer. Yes, it's getting those decisive wins over top guys. You can say all you want about clean pins, but unless there is a solid explination behind cheating to win a match, it is not accepted as well as getting a clean win. Hogan got clean wins, Warrior got clean wins, Hart and Michaels got clean wins, Austin got clean wins, and HHH got clean wins. All the main event tier guys now have gotten clean wins to put themselves over at that level. The guys just under that (RVD, Jericho, Benoit, Angle) have not. Maybe I added more than I needed but this, I feel, prooves my point.
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#24 Posted on 15.4.02 1512.45
Reposted on: 15.4.09 1528.42
First of all, it pisses me off that people keep saying things like "Vince McMahon pulled the rug out from under the Canadian Chrises push". That's just bullshit. Everything was going well, they were set to win the tag team title belts from the Two-Man Power Trip, and Triple H got hurt. So Vince and company had to throw something else together. So we got that awesome TLC3 on free TV, and what happens? Benoit gets hurt. If he hadn't gotten injured, KOTR would've been much different. Also, at KOTR, both Angle and Austin get injured, giving us those hilarious backstage skits because they couldn't wrestle at the time. Last summer was just plagued by unexpected injuries and the shittiness of Buff Bagwell. Otherwise things would've gone much differently. Also, I love Jericho and all but he stunk up the joint at SummerSlam and I was just wishing Rhyno would pin him just to end the damn match. I don't think Jericho was screwed at all until he was overshadowed by Triple H, the nWo, and Steph during his Title run.


-Jag
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#25 Posted on 15.4.02 1536.10
Reposted on: 15.4.09 1543.37
Isn't the story on the Summerslam match that Jericho was concussed and had to finish the match with his bell rung? That not withstanding, the other guy in the ring was RHYNO...you were expecting Steamboat/Flair?
Booking him in a meaningless angle with Rhyno that revolved around Stephanie (surprise) and accomplished nothing...somehow that's his fault. Got it. That Jericho keeps dropping the ball and booking himself into shitty angles that accomplish nothing. Oh, Jericho...when WILL you learn to pick that ball up and start booking yourself better?
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#26 Posted on 15.4.02 1545.46
Reposted on: 15.4.09 1559.07
"And there was that little thing about HHH saying Jericho was missing something that would make him a main eventer. Yes, it's getting those decisive wins over top guys."

I agree with HHH. Jericho got at least two (possibly three) decisive wins against the biggest face in the WWF. He beat Rock in good matches that had good, potentially elevating endings. But it didn't work for Jericho. The truth is he wasn't getting much of a reaction outside of a few shows. And that lack of a reaction, not HHH and politics, is why he failed.

Anyway I've said enough on this topic. I agree to disagree with anyone who has a different opinion.
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#27 Posted on 15.4.02 1657.26
Reposted on: 15.4.09 1659.02
If I said anything was Jericho's fault (which I didn't) it was that all those blown spots by him made for a particularly poor showing at SummerSlam. It also makes me understand why he wasn't booked higher up at Unforgiven, even though at the time RVD was getting monster pops so I didn't think of it as a push down the card for Jericho. Hell, I was just hoping he wouldn't fall off the top turnbuckle.

As for Jericho's wins against the Rock, I say the reason he didn't get the reaction is because the WWF sucked.

-Jag
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#28 Posted on 16.4.02 0318.01
Reposted on: 16.4.09 0321.33
I will try to bring this back to the original subject.
HHH's politics.

There is no denying that he screws Steph, has Vince's ear and helps with stories. He admits it.
There is also no denying that Vince has the final word.

There is no denying that last year was an awkward year for wrestling/WWF.
Freak injuries, big stars gone for long times, blown dream fueds and angles..

Triple H fought a face pop for at least half a year.
He returns to an inevitable face pop. They decide to keep him face (btw, if he had turned heel the IWC would have bitched just as hard as you do now).
Jericho in the mean time is given the Undisputed Title.
His run gets overshadowed by several factors (nWo, split rumors, H's return, Steph's ego) and alas, his character of the weasel heel champ doesn't work.(not his OR HHH's fault)
H is THE MAN to win the title, given the heat when he returns..however, weeks after that heat is pretty much gone due to the fact that face H isn't all that interesting.

In a STUPID last effor the WWF downplays the title match and makes the match 'personal' by adding Steph and it goes downhill from there.
Now the funny thing is, who came off worst? Jericho who goes back to where he (maybe) should be? Just below the main-event? Or Triple H, who has no heat whatsoever since he pedigreed Stephanie, no interesting persona, angle, feud or anything?

The WWF however, does the smart thing and keeps H champ, as by now the split has been put in effect and other angles are being built (and IMO built well!) and tries to keep/get him over as much as possible by having him return to his unbeaten image he had when he was a heel. Alas forgetting the fact that what made him interesting then was the fact that he was a heel, a dominating one that ruled all, which was different from all other scary heels.

Now if I were Hunter, and really had all this backstage power, I would have told Vince to make either Rock, Austin or Angle champion, since I don't think Jericho is even in my league. Why would he be champ to begin with if HHH dislikes him so much he doesn't think he deserves a shot?!

I strongly believe that Hunter has alot to tell but I don't think he is the one telling Vince to keep him on top so that others don't stand a chance.

And the funny thing is, all of this is just going back and forth anyways..you don't like him. I do..You believe he controls wrestling, I don't.
We could do this exact same conversation about Austin, Taker, Flair, Rhodes, Angle, Kane, Jericho, Rock, RVD, any guy that was ever on top of a fed while some other guy wasn't!
OMG! I left out Benoit! I must be burrying him!

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#29 Posted on 16.4.02 0349.35
Reposted on: 16.4.09 0351.45
I think we'll be repeating this thread next year concerning Kane...

I suggest that if anybody want ANY proof they should just ask the WWF themselves. That's what the WWF wants, right?
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#30 Posted on 16.4.02 0751.27
Reposted on: 16.4.09 0759.01

    Originally posted by Acrid
    I think we'll be repeating this thread next year concerning Kane...

    I suggest that if anybody want ANY proof they should just ask the WWF themselves. That's what the WWF wants, right?


No, because Kane's a shitty worker who couldn't draw heat if he was doused with gasoline (GET IT?).
Why did we need the Ross-felates-the H segment last night, exactly? So HGH could do a promo without Hogan there to leech every ounce of his (dwindling) heat? If that segment wasn't proof that the H is overpushed for no logical reason, I don't know what is.
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#31 Posted on 16.4.02 1028.10
Reposted on: 16.4.09 1029.02
Bwark? For those of us who don't watch Smackdown it's kind of nice to see the Champ show up on our show once in a while. Plus they were trying to put a little more heat on the UT/Austin match, and the supposed HHH vs Austin/UT title match at Judgement day. I don't think that was a bad thing at all. Not that I really listened anyway, because I don't care too much about HHH vs Hogan.


-Jag

I love being Brand specific! HA!
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#32 Posted on 16.4.02 1144.05
Reposted on: 16.4.09 1159.01
Well, I'm glad so many people have strong feelings about this issue. Actually, I really don't like Hogan vs. HHH one bit. Last night on RAW, J.R. asked if Hogan can rise to the occasion again, like he did at WM. The guy lost, Jim. I guess JR meant pop-wise, but whatever. I just can't get into this feud. Personally, I'm glad that Hollywood has a chance to finally retire like he wanted to, but this whole red & yellow thing is too much. If both men can get a good match out of each other, then that's good, but I just don't know. I'm too busy waiting for Y2J to get his "real" rematch, and despite your doubts, I'll happen sooner than you think.

(edited by Ringmistress on 16.4.02 0946)
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#33 Posted on 17.4.02 0124.27
Reposted on: 17.4.09 0127.47

    Originally posted by Travis

      Originally posted by Acrid
      I think we'll be repeating this thread next year concerning Kane...

      I suggest that if anybody want ANY proof they should just ask the WWF themselves. That's what the WWF wants, right?


    No, because Kane's a shitty worker who couldn't draw heat if he was doused with gasoline (GET IT?).
    ...... If that segment wasn't proof that the H is overpushed for no logical reason, I don't know what is.



Why wait till next year hm, Travis?
I thought you thought the same went for Triple H?
And as for the promo..WHY is it proof that he is overpushed?
And yes, they probably did it to emphasize the match without Hogan getting all the focus, you are right about that..and to mention the fact that the raw guy is next.
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