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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Adscam (and a question for Canadian W's that may involve breaking the law)
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bash91
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#1 Posted on 5.4.05 1035.54
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1035.56
One of the blogs that I regularly read, Captain's Quarters (captainsquartersblog.com) has been reporting on the Gomery Commission. While it looks to be something fairly important, is it really that big a deal? Does it really have the possibility to bring down the Liberal Government as I've seen suggested in a different venue? Or, is this more of a tempest in a teapot type of thing that only obsessive compulsive politics watchers will really care about and will have no real effect on everyday life and politics?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks, Tim

(edited by bash91 on 5.4.05 1136)
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Sobriquet
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#2 Posted on 5.4.05 1121.22
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1122.46
All I can really comment on is the trust factor.

Friends of mine I've talked to specifically about this issue say they no longer trust the Liberal party. They do not know the intricacies of what has gone on, but they "know" enough to know something stinks.

These are people who once voted liberal. One of them worked on the provincial liberal campaign last year.

And they will all be voting differently next election, a sentiment largely formed due to the Gomery Commission.

Will this "bring down" the liberal government before next election? I doubt it...

Will it be a major factor in the results of next election?

Almost assuredly "Yes".

The thing is, it's not just the sponsorship scandal... the liberals are buggering up every which way they turn, and it hasn't been pretty. Personally, I think come next election, memories will be sufficiently foggy to allow for another federal PC government. People will have finally forgotten (maybe even forgiven) the stigma associated with Mulroney, and this means that, for the first time in over a decade, the liberals are in trouble.
Oliver
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#3 Posted on 5.4.05 1139.02
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1139.35
    Originally posted by Sobriquet
    People will have finally forgotten (maybe even forgiven) the stigma associated with Mulroney, and this means that, for the first time in over a decade, the liberals are in trouble.
Funny enough, when I think of the current PC party, my thoughts evoke more memories of the Reform party or the Canadian Alliance.
Freeway
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#4 Posted on 5.4.05 1225.25
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1226.22
    Originally posted by SOK
      Originally posted by Sobriquet
      People will have finally forgotten (maybe even forgiven) the stigma associated with Mulroney, and this means that, for the first time in over a decade, the liberals are in trouble.
    Funny enough, when I think of the current PC party, my thoughts evoke more memories of the Reform party or the Canadian Alliance.


Well, the build-up to the LAST election was focused mainly on the sponsorship scandal and Conservative supporters were salivating at the prospect at being back in power. It didn't happen. Some seats in the middle of the country that the Liberals lost went to the PC, but a larger chunk went to the Bloc Quebecois. The Maritimes stayed Liberal and we're left with a minority government.

As for the Gomery Commission, it'd have to be REALLY damning for the Ontario & Quebec Liberal supporters to vote Conservative.
Mr. Heat Miser
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#5 Posted on 5.4.05 1304.13
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1305.04
As an Ontario voter (and only one) I (literally) can't imagine a scenario that would drive me to vote for the federal Conservatives until I see some evidence that they aren't just the Reform Party in yet another new outfit.

This thing could force another election, but I think that everyone who was outraged by the Adscam thing already voted against the Liberals last time. Like FW420 says, it would have to be REALLY damning. Unbelievably damning. 'Cause Sobriquet's recently disillusioned friends notwithstanding, it has long been common knowledge that the Liberals tolerate a low level of corruption, just like anyone else in power.
The Goon
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#6 Posted on 5.4.05 1308.42
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1311.32
I was just on a sales call, and I noticed a guy walking around downtown Calgary with a big sign on his back saying ADSCAM and then the above website. The idea of a publication ban bothers me-no doubt this is going to build up to a point where, once released, the information is going to explode over the media everywhere.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. While my beliefs may be more in touch with what the Liberal Party offers, it seems like they've been in power too long.
haz
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#7 Posted on 5.4.05 1313.59
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1314.01
    Originally posted by Sobriquet
    All I can really comment on is the trust factor.

    Friends of mine I've talked to specifically about this issue say they no longer trust the Liberal party. They do not know the intricacies of what has gone on, but they "know" enough to know something stinks.





As opposed to anyone else who would be the government??? I would have to agree with what Freeway said. This was the focus on the minds of voters last election, and while it cost the Liberals a majority, it ultimately didn't cost them the government.

Will it next time? Will it actually force an election?

I think all opposition parties are just looking for a reason to have another election and this will be it. Who will win? Probably not the Liberals, at least not with Martin at the helm. Unless they make significant changes in overall leadership, they will be ousted.

What we really need up here is a party with a leader who even a little seems trustworthy. Not one of the current leaders has that feeling to them....
Hogan's My Dad
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#8 Posted on 5.4.05 1314.51
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1314.53
And they won't.

See the problem here is that your life won't change according to the parties in power. Really, there will be almost no alteration in your day-to-day existence. If it makes you feel special that you voted because somewhere in the world people can't, knock yourself out, but don't kid yourself. The three parties in Canada, or the three that matter anyway, are not that different.

The NDP is not as radically left as we like to pretend so that we can delude ourselves into thinking we have this broad spectrum of political representation, and neither is the Conservative Party of Canada as radically right. The liberals are in the middle, but they're all left of center compared to say, the United States where they're all right of center (except for Ted Kennedy). I had an Arab buddy of mine tell me the phrase "Only in America could Bill Clinton be considered liberal" and it really is worth thinking about.

If the attitude that you don't have a right to complain if you don't vote has any validity, and it doesn't, then vote so you can complain. Do not vote because you think your vote matters, especially if you are young and/or a visible minority, in which case your needs have been, are, and will be completely ignored by every major party in the country.

Democracy is overrated. Federally, every party has screwed this country up in some form or fashion. If it's the PC party running our dollar into the ground trying to keep up with the Jonses under the appropriately initialled Prime Minister BM, or the Liberals squandering funds on their buddies in this scandal, learn to accept the one unavoidable fact of Canadian politics: all your choices suck.

Hey, Liberals will argue they had a multi-billion dollar surplus, but you won't see it improving Canadian life. The Conservatives will continue to whine till they're hoarse under their serial killer looking leader Harper, about how fags can't marry and the Libs are evil (while stating virtually nothing on policy they intend to employ). Applaud sarcastically, but don't think one pile of manure stinks more than another. Hey, you can even feed breadcrumbs to that bastion of soundbytes Jack Layton, but neither he nor the party he (mis)represents will apprach relevance in the next two or three decades. Does the PQ or the Bloc even campaign outside of Quebec? Do both of those parties still exist? What happened to the drunk guy from the referendum? What about the guy with one leg? Does anybody miss Rene Lévesque?

Don't worry, none of the answers to these questions matter. No party is addressing our emaciated military, or trying to keep our best minds from hitting the continental U.S. and never coming back. None of it really matters, that is why we had the voter turnout last year that we did, the lowest since the election before. It's only going to get worse, no matter who is in there. I only hope for at least ten years of minority governments of all kinds, so that maybe they will get the message that seems to be clear to a growing number of Canadians.

(edited by Hogan's My Dad on 5.4.05 1118)
fuelinjected
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#9 Posted on 5.4.05 1410.09
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1411.07
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    Do not vote because you think your vote matters, especially if you are young and/or a visible minority, in which case your needs have been, are, and will be completely ignored by every major party in the country.


You're ignored because you don't vote. That's the counter-argument that politicians will use. If you really don't like the way this country is run, you're going to have to take it upon yourself to vote for one of the other parties because the big one and medium two will never take the first step.

I'd rather we had a corrupt Liberal government then turn our country back into a US lapdog that pours billions into a needless military and throws us into wars we don't belong in. I'd prefer to be the Switzerland of North America.
BigVitoMark
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#10 Posted on 5.4.05 1637.26
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1637.26
I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs when we live in a country that prefers a government that blatantly steals the money of the people and hands it over to their friends to one that would provide adequate equipment to the military and cut taxes for the lower and middle classes.

We do not have a sufficiently informed electorate for an issue like Adscam to have the impact it should. I can not imagine an educated, attentive nation giving such a group of thieves any response other than a dismissal with prejudice. Instead, they get re-elected. It makes no sense.

I do not agree universally with the policies of any party. I have voted for the CA and the Conservatives in the past and will probably do so again the next time. I understand that people hold differing views to my own, and part of the fun of an election in my eyes is the opportunity to actually debate those opinions with different people. What I can't stand, however, is the number of people who can not justify their vote. And I don't mean the number of people who can't write a ten page dissertation on the ideology of the party they support...I'm talking about people who say they will vote one way but can not tell you a single reason why are voting the way they do.

If you like national child care, fine. I don't, but that's OK. Vote for what you believe in. Instead, people are voting without an informed opinion. People told me last June that they were voting Liberal because "the Conservative guy wants to kill babies". Great...not only did they listen to the fear mongering, but they got the fear mongering message wrong! Let's not even mention the fact that they didn't know the man's name...

Before this gets too far into a rant (and I fear I may have crossed that line already), my point is this. Adscam won't matter. It will make a few people mad, and will almost certainly be a campaign point whenever the election happens to be. The majority, however, will not even know what Adscam is, nevermind be able to form an opinion on it or vote according to what that opinion might be.

And that's pathetic.
fuelinjected
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#11 Posted on 5.4.05 1704.30
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1705.02
I would counter that its a pretty sad state of affairs that there isn't a viable party that can overcome a party mired in scandal.

When I voted, I voted true to the system and I voted for who I wanted as my MP. While I said I prefer Paul Martin over Stephen Harper, it doesn't mean that I voted Liberal in the last election. If I had to fit inside a box, I would classify myself as a red torrie - socially progressive and fiscally conservative. The current incarnation of the Conservative Party does not fit my criteria.

You're going to deal with an uninformed electorate in every single democracy in the world. Its the opposition's job to overcome that on a national and a grassroots level. They were given a silver bullet and still couldn't do anything with it.
BigVitoMark
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#12 Posted on 5.4.05 1727.31
Reposted on: 5.4.12 1729.01
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    You're going to deal with an uninformed electorate in every single democracy in the world. Its the opposition's job to overcome that on a national and a grassroots level. They were given a silver bullet and still couldn't do anything with it.



Not to make excuses, as I agree you have to work with the landscape you're given, but it is tough when you have a population ready to associate the word "evil" with the word "Conservative" without even listening to the party's policies. If you don't agree with the platform, fine, but "conservatives are bad" is not a valid opinion yet seems to be the extent of what too many people believe.
Big Bad
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#13 Posted on 6.4.05 0318.50
Reposted on: 6.4.12 0319.26
If Harper somehow wins (which he won't, since he actually has somehow less substance than even our current PM), he'll just get his own minority anyway, and since EVERYONE (Liberals, Bloc, NDP) hates the Alliance, it'll be about as short-lived a reign as Joe Clark.
Mr. Heat Miser
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#14 Posted on 6.4.05 0937.42
Reposted on: 6.4.12 0938.04
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs when we live in a country that prefers a government that blatantly steals the money of the people and hands it over to their friends to one that would provide adequate equipment to the military and cut taxes for the lower and middle classes.

    We do not have a sufficiently informed electorate for an issue like Adscam to have the impact it should. I can not imagine an educated, attentive nation giving such a group of thieves any response other than a dismissal with prejudice. Instead, they get re-elected. It makes no sense. ... The majority, however, will not even know what Adscam is, nevermind be able to form an opinion on it or vote according to what that opinion might be.

    And that's pathetic.


Hey, I'm educated and attentive. I know what AdScam is. I just don't care about it. We're talking about a few million wasted dollars, which in the grand scheme of things is not that much. Would I prefer a non-crooked government? Sure I would! But here's the thing: Even if I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the Conservatives aren't going be corrupt - I don't like their policies. At all. Turfing out the Libs, in my opinion, would be cutting of my nose to spite my face.

Yeah, the conservative want to better equip the military, and lower taxes, and those are both all well and good BUT they are silent on a lot of issues I care about.

Do the Conservatives still want to restrict immigration further? Have they kept Reform's idea of holding a referendum over every little thing? Are there still a bunch of folks in the party's power structure who want to legislate their religious ideals? Exactly how closely do they want to work with the USA? If they plan on cutting taxes, increasing military funding, and balancing the budget, what gets cut. other than generic "waste", which is always less than anticipated?

The party platform seems to gloss over these questions, and I sure won't trust anyone to form a government when they are silent about such things. These guys have advocated policies in the past that make me think they are "bad", and haven't done very much to indicate that their ideas have changed.

I'd guess that a lot of the folks who aren't articulating why they think the Conservatives are "bad" have their reasons, and just don't much feel like talking about politics.
Freeway
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#15 Posted on 7.4.05 1651.08
Reposted on: 7.4.12 1651.17
And today the publication ban was LIFTED (partially).

Interesting watching the whole thing explode on CPAC.

CBC.ca's Sponsorship Scandal Section has tons of stuff.

(edited by Freeway420 on 7.4.05 1557)
BigVitoMark
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#16 Posted on 7.4.05 1834.20
Reposted on: 7.4.12 1835.08
    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
    Do the Conservatives still want to restrict immigration further? Have they kept Reform's idea of holding a referendum over every little thing? Are there still a bunch of folks in the party's power structure who want to legislate their religious ideals? Exactly how closely do they want to work with the USA? If they plan on cutting taxes, increasing military funding, and balancing the budget, what gets cut. other than generic "waste", which is always less than anticipated?




The Conservative Party is actually pro-immigrant, and has pledged to reform the system to recognize foreign training credentials faster. The old Alliance referendum ideas were voted down at the policy convention two weeks ago. I don't believe it was ever party policy, for any of Reform, the CA, or the current Conservative Party, to legislate religious values - there is a difference between holding your own beliefs and wanting to impose them on everybody else.

Lastly, since when has working with the USA been a bad idea? They are our largest trading partner, and with them we share the longest undefended border in the world. This growing attitude that just because the Americans do something we MUST do the opposite otherwise we are un-Canadian is ridiculous. There is a difference between working together and being a subordinate.
haz
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#17 Posted on 11.4.05 0812.56
Reposted on: 11.4.12 0813.19
Seems like people care and now say they won't back the Liberals according to the polls.

Conservatives - 36.2 %
Liberals - 25%
NDP 20.5%
Bloc 12.6%
Green 5%

It is really a double-edged sword for the opposition parties though. They are ahead in the polls, but the one thing people don't want right now is an election...

It will be interesting to see how they handle this.
(on both sides...)
Gavintzu
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#18 Posted on 11.4.05 2157.20
Reposted on: 11.4.12 2159.01
This scandal has so many different angles it's dizzying ...

The federal Liberals were split in the early '00s between the "Chretien wing" who held power and the "Martin wing" who were kept from power by Chretien holding on to the PMs seat for so long. (Think Tony Blair vs. Gordon Brown in the UK). Martin eventually won out and took power ... and Adscam hit. Even though the corruption was perpetrated by the Chretien cronies and probably by Chretien himself, it's Martin who is taking the political flack. Support for the federal Liberals is plummeting.

The Quebec separatists are having a field day at home over the scandal, and would easily win a provincial election against the ruling Quebec Liberals if one was in the cards. (It's not for at least another two years). But the Quebec separatists who hold seats in Parliament would love to have a federal election soon, because they would have big gains. They are going to try and bring down the government down this week.

This puts the federal Conservatives in a quandary. They have the ability to join forces with the Bloc Quebecois and topple the Liberals. They could conceivably win a spring election because of voter outrage over this scandal, so they may be tempted to do just this. On the other hand, if they seem to be opportunistic and force an election too soon (we just had one last year), it could backfire on them. But this may be just what they need to break through and win votes in vote-rich Ontario, which has been their Achilles heel.

Great times for a Canadian political junkie





(edited by Gavintzu on 11.4.05 1958)
BigVitoMark
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#19 Posted on 11.4.05 2157.45
Reposted on: 11.4.12 2159.02
When you've got an opinion swing that drastic, though, and evidence starting to come out that your government is crooked I don't see any way you can't force an election. If the response to the Gomery testimony had been neutral and the Grits were still polling strong maybe you could make the case that an election isn't warranted, but I think those numbers are quite telling. We'll be at the polls before Canada Day in my opinion.
Gavintzu
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#20 Posted on 11.4.05 2204.29
Reposted on: 11.4.12 2204.32
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    When you've got an opinion swing that drastic, though, and evidence starting to come out that your government is crooked I don't see any way you can't force an election. If the response to the Gomery testimony had been neutral and the Grits were still polling strong maybe you could make the case that an election isn't warranted, but I think those numbers are quite telling. We'll be at the polls before Canada Day in my opinion.


You may be right.

IF Martin's Liberals are able to paint the Conservatives as being opportunistic, and IF they are able to sway some Canadians to the view that it was Cretien's Liberals who were corrupt, then the Conservatives could shoot themselves in the feet by forcing an early election.

But if the Conservatives just win the same number of seats they hold now, but the Bloc Quebecois gain 10 or 12 in Quebec, then the Conservatives could form the next government ... with the backing of the Bloc.

Will they make the same deal with the Devil that Mulroney's Conservatives made in order to win power in the '80s? Tune in and see

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