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18.12.07 0338
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - D-Von the Evangelist
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EastCoastAvenger
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#81 Posted on 12.4.02 2144.46
Reposted on: 12.4.09 2147.10
In addition to the position on the card, take a good look at how they were portrayed.

Booker T: Near the top, but never was a threat to the title. Was allowed a strong showing in the initial conflicts, at which point he was immediately made to look like an untalented slob who shouldn't even be in the ring with the top guys, despite his status as a former World champ. Of course, JR was right there with the uplifting comments (Ric Flair, he AIN'T! THERE'S a real champ of a guy!) Hopefully that will change soon and Booker T will get that real push at the top, as opposed to being there to make the top guys look good.

Rikishi: Once again, he was up there for a short while, but no one ever made a real effort to make it look like he belonged there.

D-Von: no argument there, he is doing great. I hope this gimmick works for him, or better yet, turns out to be a ruse and an excuse to punk Vince out for splitting up the Dudleys.

GodFather: Pushed beyond his skill? Never. He put on good matches for a big guy. It's a damn shame that the furthest he ever got in the WWF was as a pimp. I preferred his Kama "The Supreme Fighting Machine" gimmick myself, which probably would have gone a lot further had they not had him feud over a firkin' GOLD CHAIN!

Mark Henry: Well pushed indeed, as "Sexual Chocolate", a guy who had affairs with transvestites and 80+ year old women. The former because he was stupid, the latter because he was that firkin' desperate.

D-Lo: That is a tragic case. Two careers ruined because of a freak accident. (At least that's what it looked like from the pictures and accounts: apparently he tripped or lost his balance and both of them landed fully on Droz's neck, snapping it.) I actually often wonder where he'd be right now if the accident hadn't happened. The optimist in me thinks he'd be IC champ today, the cynical bastard (who's had a LOT of exposure on this thread) figures they'd just find another excuse to bury him.

Faarooq: Another former WCW champ not given his full due. We'll look past the initial "Asad" years for now. As part of the APA, tough, pushed as the equal physically, perhaps, but never mentally. Despite being a face, he's regularly outsmarted and is often the member of the APA to get pinned.

Haku: Still a savage, though last time I checked, Samoa is a relatively modernized country.

David Lee Roth was right: "It's not whether you win or lose, or even how you play the game. It's how good you looked while playing it."
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#82 Posted on 12.4.02 2228.33
Reposted on: 12.4.09 2229.01
ECA: Well, let's look at these again:
Booker T - given the biggest push of all the ex WCW guys. Made to look about as tough as the NWO is currently looking. Pushed as a top guy, though not quite the equal of the Rock. Also, pushed as a heel, which is the kind of person whom JR loves to be upset about (IIRC I remember him trying to actually damn Austin's soul to hell a couple of times). Perhaps the fact that Booker wasn't pushed as their equal is the WWF didn't want to push him up to that level. Heck, we could tie another of the great net debates in here and compare the fact that Jericho, a white guy, took 3 years to get pushed up half-heartedly to the top, and he's IMO more talented than Booker, but 6 months into his run he was feuding with Chyna and Bob Holly. And really, since when has Vince ever respected someone's WCW accomplishments regardless of skin color. Outside of Ric Flair who was given the title within months of his arrival, Vince has always buried WCW people, or does the Red Rooster ring no bells for you?

Rikishi - I agree no one made an effort to make it look like he belonged there. And I think there's a point in time where perhaps he could have made that leap. But is that racism or stupidity, since one could say the same about Test with just as much validity.

Godfather - "He put on good matches for a big guy" Well, while such opinions are of course simply that, I really think you're going to be in a very small minority holding that opinion. Most people I think would say that his matches, no matter the persona, really weren't all that good to watch. But hey, if everyone disagrees, speak up, maybe I'm the only one who never dug the Kama matches.

Mark Henry - The craptacular angles you're referring to all are the things I meant when I said the WWF realized he was worthless. Before that he was being pushed as the all-american guy, squashing Lawler, beating Vader, and IIRC he beat Rocky on PPV. After a while of him killing crowds left and right the WWF began letting Russo use Henry for whatever bad ideas he came up with, to the point many people were openly speculating that the WWF was hoping he'd quit so they'd stop having to pay him on his 10 year guaranteed contract.

D-Lo: I agree what happened was tragic. I always thought D-Lo was someone who had potential to really bust out. He kinda struck me like Eddy in a way, in that when he was a hell people really liked booing him, yet when he was face people really seemed to like getting behind him. I hope that everyone feels he's paid his pennance and will reintroduce him soon and give him another chance. Whatever the case though, I think his case is a special enough circumstance that nothing should logically be drawn too much either way.

Farrooq: Look, I love Ron Simmons as much as the next guy, but he had one crappy title reign in order to fill the Bill Watts fetish for big black guys. And neither of the APA have ever been pushed as brain surgeons, and frankly I think they always push him as the slightly smarter of the two. And as for getting pinned, I think that would be the case no matter what, since Bradshaw is JR's boy. Plus again, they feel Bradshaw has possibly 10 more years in him, as opposed to Ron who is getting a very nice wind-down to his career here.

Haku - Like I said, he's an 80's character who got typecast and never got out of it. To me he's a relic of a hopefully mostly bygone age.

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#83 Posted on 12.4.02 2302.03
Reposted on: 12.4.09 2308.41

    Originally posted by spf2119
    ECA: Well, let's look at these again:
    Booker T - given the biggest push of all the ex WCW guys. Made to look about as tough as the NWO is currently looking. Pushed as a top guy, though not quite the equal of the Rock. Also, pushed as a heel, which is the kind of person whom JR loves to be upset about (IIRC I remember him trying to actually damn Austin's soul to hell a couple of times). Perhaps the fact that Booker wasn't pushed as their equal is the WWF didn't want to push him up to that level. Heck, we could tie another of the great net debates in here and compare the fact that Jericho, a white guy, took 3 years to get pushed up half-heartedly to the top, and he's IMO more talented than Booker, but 6 months into his run he was feuding with Chyna and Bob Holly. And really, since when has Vince ever respected someone's WCW accomplishments regardless of skin color. Outside of Ric Flair who was given the title within months of his arrival, Vince has always buried WCW people, or does the Red Rooster ring no bells for you?

    Rikishi - I agree no one made an effort to make it look like he belonged there. And I think there's a point in time where perhaps he could have made that leap. But is that racism or stupidity, since one could say the same about Test with just as much validity.

    Godfather - "He put on good matches for a big guy" Well, while such opinions are of course simply that, I really think you're going to be in a very small minority holding that opinion. Most people I think would say that his matches, no matter the persona, really weren't all that good to watch. But hey, if everyone disagrees, speak up, maybe I'm the only one who never dug the Kama matches.

    Mark Henry - The craptacular angles you're referring to all are the things I meant when I said the WWF realized he was worthless. Before that he was being pushed as the all-american guy, squashing Lawler, beating Vader, and IIRC he beat Rocky on PPV. After a while of him killing crowds left and right the WWF began letting Russo use Henry for whatever bad ideas he came up with, to the point many people were openly speculating that the WWF was hoping he'd quit so they'd stop having to pay him on his 10 year guaranteed contract.

    D-Lo: I agree what happened was tragic. I always thought D-Lo was someone who had potential to really bust out. He kinda struck me like Eddy in a way, in that when he was a hell people really liked booing him, yet when he was face people really seemed to like getting behind him. I hope that everyone feels he's paid his pennance and will reintroduce him soon and give him another chance. Whatever the case though, I think his case is a special enough circumstance that nothing should logically be drawn too much either way.

    Farrooq: Look, I love Ron Simmons as much as the next guy, but he had one crappy title reign in order to fill the Bill Watts fetish for big black guys. And neither of the APA have ever been pushed as brain surgeons, and frankly I think they always push him as the slightly smarter of the two. And as for getting pinned, I think that would be the case no matter what, since Bradshaw is JR's boy. Plus again, they feel Bradshaw has possibly 10 more years in him, as opposed to Ron who is getting a very nice wind-down to his career here.

    Haku - Like I said, he's an 80's character who got typecast and never got out of it. To me he's a relic of a hopefully mostly bygone age.




After reading this whole thread, I applaude the first non-passionate examination of this issue. Racisim is such a broad stroke for people to place on something, especially wrestling. It's not about racisim, it's about politics folks. Booker T, just like every new WWF acquisition, must "pay his dues" or some such shit.
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#84 Posted on 13.4.02 0123.42
Reposted on: 13.4.09 0123.59
I'm starting to wonder whether some of you are just arguing just to argue or if you FIRMLY believe in what you are saying.

And for Christ's sake people it was a three minute skit. D-Von is just picking up on a gimmick he had back in ECW. For all you know he will be a low ball highered thug for Vince McMahon who preaches, much like Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction.

I really don't think anyone here has seen enough of the gimmick to judge it the way you guys are judging it.
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#85 Posted on 13.4.02 0408.30
Reposted on: 13.4.09 0414.19
"OSH, you're still talking about stereotyping and generalizing, when you're talking about upper-crust, tea-sipping snobs. Let's compare that to shuck-and-jiving and stupid, which Booker T has been portrayed as (remember that bit where he wore the glasses to look smarter?? And oh, how the faces and announcers gleefully goofed on him for that!) Which one do you think is more negative? You can't compare the two! It's about power, it's about control, it's about a group of people that's been subjugated by another for hundreds of years. That's what racism is. Calling all Texas beer drinking redneck or all Candians Chris Benoit marks or all Englishmen tea drinkers isn't the same thing."

Are you even thinking about what you're saying? For Christ's sake, racism has nothing to do with power, it's about discrimination due to your RACE, as indicated by it's name! Black, white, British, French, Asian, Mexican, ANYTHING which involves "stereotyping and generalizing" based on race characteristics is RACIST. William Regal's character is RACIST towards the British. Accept it.
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#86 Posted on 13.4.02 0935.56
Reposted on: 13.4.09 0944.30

The Mountie. Dino Bravo. Lance Storm in WCW. Bret Hart in the latter days in the WWF. Ring a bell? It does to me. I am Canadian. The fact that Shawn Micheals saw fit to rub our flag in his crotch is enough to make me want to vomit. But no one outside of Canada complained, and even then, some Canadians didn't mind it.


But as soon as one man gets a gimmick like D-von then it's rascist. I find that funny, actually.

For the sack of it, lets take a look at minority wrestlers....



Rock: Duh. The cornerstone.
Booker T: Hanging out with the big boys. Given a run against Rock, Austin, Angle, had several decent matches, given a second chance after the Bagwell incident.
Rikishi: Pushed nicely, mid-carder. Had a coupl eof high profile fueds.
D-Von: How many tag titles have they won? I lost track after 4.
Ron Simmons: Solid tag teamer. "Damn" straight.
Godfather: This isn't about racisim here, it's about LACK OF SKILL.
Mark Henry: See above; but instead it's lack of dedication and motivation.
D-Lo Brown: Droz.
Haku: It's all about the hair.
Eddy: Messed up personal life.
Tazz: Commentator, Tough Enough.



Now, lets scope out some OTHER WCW stars, other than Booker T....


DDP: Jobbed to Sara. Now fighting for the EURO title.
Lance Storm: Jakked and Metal (sadly).
Buff Bagwell: FIRED =)
Shawn Stasiak: Idiot boy.
Everyone else: C-League shows, House shows, and the farm leagues.








Booker T actully made out like a bandit, by looking at all of this.

(edited by El Nastio on 13.4.02 1037)
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#87 Posted on 13.4.02 0957.56
Reposted on: 13.4.09 0959.01
A few points: I haven't seen the skit in question, but I think it would be more racist to bury D-Von and not give him any TV time compared to Bubba. The fact that they're bothering to remake his character indicates to me that the WWF is interested in D-Von's potential. Though I think some of this might be to have the team take different paths in order to have more interest in an eventual reunion somewhere down the road--or perhaps a feud.

Someone said that a good example of a black face champion [wait, bad choice of words!] was Ron Simmons in WCW. It should also be mentioned that that title reign didn't get over with the fans--it was a failed experiment. And that was even in the South, where Simmons would be more likely to get over. [I think most of the problem was because he was too inexperienced to really pull off a world title reign. The Simmons of today would have been a smash hit.] Wrestling is a business, not a place for social experimentation. It's not like legitmate sports, nor is it totally like movies or theater, since success or failure can be learned right away depending on the audience's reaction. What matters is what the crowd responds to, and unfortunately, I think they respond more to stereotypes. Though there are a significant number of minority fans, most of them are white, and as fans we tend to cheer for those we identify with. So I think if a finger's going to be pointed, it probably should be pointed at the fans, or at society. The WWF for the most part is going to try and do what they think people will want to see.

About the only exception I can think of is The Rock, and I think his mixed racial heritage puts him in a different category. It would not surprise me at all to hear that a lot of fans don't even consider him black. I also think wrestlers with amazing charisma can overcome the barrier up to a point--Junkyard Dog was second only to Hulk Hogan in popularity during the 80s. But some would say he too was a stereotype, since he used a headbutt and danced in the ring.

Another thing to consider--WCW even towards the end, was based in the South, where there are more black wrestling fans--it would make more sense to give pushes to black wrestlers there than it would in the WWF.
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#88 Posted on 13.4.02 1048.34
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1049.19

    Originally posted by WTF13
    A few points: I haven't seen the skit in question, but I think it would be more racist to bury D-Von and not give him any TV time compared to Bubba. The fact that they're bothering to remake his character indicates to me that the WWF is interested in D-Von's potential. Though I think some of this might be to have the team take different paths in order to have more interest in an eventual reunion somewhere down the road--or perhaps a feud.

    Someone said that a good example of a black face champion [wait, bad choice of words!] was Ron Simmons in WCW. It should also be mentioned that that title reign didn't get over with the fans--it was a failed experiment. And that was even in the South, where Simmons would be more likely to get over. [I think most of the problem was because he was too inexperienced to really pull off a world title reign. The Simmons of today would have been a smash hit.] Wrestling is a business, not a place for social experimentation. It's not like legitmate sports, nor is it totally like movies or theater, since success or failure can be learned right away depending on the audience's reaction. What matters is what the crowd responds to, and unfortunately, I think they respond more to stereotypes. Though there are a significant number of minority fans, most of them are white, and as fans we tend to cheer for those we identify with. So I think if a finger's going to be pointed, it probably should be pointed at the fans, or at society. The WWF for the most part is going to try and do what they think people will want to see.

    About the only exception I can think of is The Rock, and I think his mixed racial heritage puts him in a different category. It would not surprise me at all to hear that a lot of fans don't even consider him black. I also think wrestlers with amazing charisma can overcome the barrier up to a point--Junkyard Dog was second only to Hulk Hogan in popularity during the 80s. But some would say he too was a stereotype, since he used a headbutt and danced in the ring.

    Another thing to consider--WCW even towards the end, was based in the South, where there are more black wrestling fans--it would make more sense to give pushes to black wrestlers there than it would in the WWF.



When I think of the South, the first thing that comes to mind is NOT racial harmony. I'm not going to go along with more black wrestling fans for WCW theory, because Simmons' title reign lasted a couple months--then ten years later Booker T. won the world title. But if you look at WCW over the last ten years, there's no significant difference between them and the WWF in the heights blacks have achieved.

Another thing to think about...if my history according to Keith is accurate, Bill Watts/WCW put the title on Simmons out of desperation. When Booker finally became a world champion, WCW was drowning. Neither title reign turned business around. Rock became the WWF world champion at the cusp of the WWF's ultimate dominance of the wrestling world--his rise helped send the WWF's popularity into the stratosphere. Does this mean anything? Dunno, but its something to think about.

BDC
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#89 Posted on 13.4.02 1051.23
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1056.43
"So, anyone out there think this can be cool? I think it could work pretty well if they set him up as a psycho evangelist, D-Von's got the voice for it, he already has some of the lingo down (TESTIFY!) and it sets up some pretty cool possible one liners like, "You know, you'd think people would have learned after the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades: Don't F(bleep) with the Christians!" Then again, knowing the WWF, they'll turn this into either an epic fuckup that pisses off every group that sees it, or even worse, it'll last for a month and pass into total obscurity, taking D-Von with it."

Anyone remember this? This was the original post in this rather long-winded thread. Here we are, 85+ posts later, and the actual question has yet to be even looked at much. A simple question about whether or not D-Von's gimmick had a chance to do well turned into chapter X of "Does Racism Exist in Sports Entertainment?" Obviously, everyone has strong opinions about this, strong enough that we were all pissed off and at each other's throats for a while there. Gee, I wonder how long it would have been before racial slurs and death threats made their way into the discussion? And while this is going on, the original question is left in the dust and conveniently forgotten. Now, who's in favor of continuing the REAL thread?

Well, to start, I think we proved with this little thread that this gimmick could turn into a nice little firestorm rather quickly. But once again, knowing the WWF, this'll pass into obscurity within 6 weeks and a reunion of Buh-Buh and D-Von will shortly follow (hopefully starting with an evil-looking "Sandman"-style 3-D on Hulk Hogan that leaves him with a broken collarbone and no desire to continue to run with the young guys). So... What do you think?
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#90 Posted on 13.4.02 1137.46
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1146.22
I don't have a lot of faith in the WWF, but they do seem to making an effort with new characters/directions since the split and i think it is a good enough character and D-von is a good enough wrestler/talker that it should do well if they push it properly.

Regarding the racism, i don't think it's a racist gimmick but that doesn't mean it's not offensive. The problem is where do you draw the line so as not to put the WWF in a position where they don't dare employ a black man at all because any negative portrayal of him is deemed offensive by someone.
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#91 Posted on 13.4.02 1139.16
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1150.30
I think the first 10 or so posts answered your initial question. I mean, here was my answer:

I see absolutely nothing good coming of this gimmick. At all. Except maybe D-Von getting to say "Testify" a lot.

It's just not question that's going to produce a 100-post thread. But we probably should have switched the other "racism" question to a different thread or something. But since we didn't, here's another couple cents of mine:

I think it's really tough looking at individual wrestlers and being able to determine if race was or wasn't a factor in their push/non-push. Everyone is different and brings something different to the table. There are too many variables or non-variables. Plus, everyone has a different idea of what was an appropriate push or not "Booker was main-eventing for the title and got the biggest push out of any ex-WCWers." "Booker jobs all the time, was pushed down the card with lightening speed, and is portrayed as a complete buffoon." Both of these are true. It's just perspective.

I think the only thing you can do is look at wrestlers that are pretty close in terms of other variables. That's why I brought up Bradshaw and Faarooq. After a few weeks D-Von and Buh-Buh will probably a good example. Booker and DDP are also a good comparison. These different examples will tell you different things (Booker is in better shape than DDP if you ask me). But you can't say "look at the Rock and Crash Holly" or list
all the wresters of color and what they've done or haven't done and expect to get anywhere.

I really don't know if there is a significant amount of racism in the WWF. But it's still important to look.

Moe
BDC
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#92 Posted on 13.4.02 1328.48
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1329.01

    Originally posted by EastCoastAvenger
    Now, who's in favor of continuing the REAL thread?

    Well, to start, I think we proved with this little thread that this gimmick could turn into a nice little firestorm rather quickly. But once again, knowing the WWF, this'll pass into obscurity within 6 weeks and a reunion of Buh-Buh and D-Von will shortly follow (hopefully starting with an evil-looking "Sandman"-style 3-D on Hulk Hogan that leaves him with a broken collarbone and no desire to continue to run with the young guys). So... What do you think?



ECA, I'm with Moe. Everyone that had an opinion on the value of D-Von's gimmick spoke; if the specific topic interested more people, that'd be all we're talking about. Who cares that it spawned a larger discussion?

I never understand why people complain about what happens within a thread. Ideas are spawned and depending on people's input, the thread takes a life of its own. So the first page dealt with the D-Von preacher gimmick and the last four pages have morphed to the racism of the D-Von preacher gimmick to racism in wrestling. It's a natural progression in intelligent discussion. We started with the narrow and graduated out to the broader themes that the narrow topic encompassed.

I don't think that aside from F.A.B. anyone has taken any potshots or resorted to race baiting or anything of that nature. It's been a good discussion.

So, maybe, ECA, its just time for the thread to finish out the string, and we can bring up the D-Von preacher thing next week when his character takes the next step in development on Smackdown.

BDC
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#93 Posted on 13.4.02 1450.33
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1454.03

So ...

anything happen while I was gone?
EastCoastAvenger
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#94 Posted on 13.4.02 1644.12
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1645.31
It's not the direction the thread took. It's just the fact that it kind of went out of control, a lot of people (myself included) were pissed off and/or well on the way to getting pissed off. Later, I went for a few beers, and just said "fuck it", and came back to try to cool it off a bit.

I wasn't angry or anything about the thread taking off, I was just a bit overwhelmed with how fast it took off.

And Shea... Nah, just chillin' over here! :-)
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#95 Posted on 13.4.02 1704.05
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1713.37

    Originally posted by BDC
    I don't think that aside from F.A.B. anyone has taken any potshots or resorted to race baiting or anything of that nature.


i was going to let this slide but it keeps bugging me.

yeah i cut on dude because i was pissed off, but don't lump me in with that other shit.
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#96 Posted on 13.4.02 1724.13
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1724.49
I don't think FAB was race-baiting, I think he was fully convinced of his opinion and lost his temper for a bit. It happens to all of us at one time or another, I was mighty pissed off myself. Thankfully, it was over this message board where all we could throw were words, not fists.

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#97 Posted on 13.4.02 1726.33
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1726.53
I like the fact that the thread's gone on this long. It's more interesting to hear everyone's side and to argue their points with logic, rather than read a bunch of tripe about who's getting screwed over, who's a shitty worker, etc. As one guy said, it reminds me of a good discussion in a college class.

OSH, I think I did go a little overboard and didn't mean to give offense. I definitely understand where you're coming from. And if anybody took offense, apologies to all (except for people like FAB, who just take juvenile potshots).
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#98 Posted on 13.4.02 1831.37
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1848.17

That's the spirit!

Bartender! Drinks for everybody!
BDC
Chourico
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#99 Posted on 13.4.02 1839.20
Reposted on: 13.4.09 1859.04
    Originally posted by Notorious F.A.B.

      Originally posted by BDC
      I don't think that aside from F.A.B. anyone has taken any potshots or resorted to race baiting or anything of that nature.


    i was going to let this slide but it keeps bugging me.

    yeah i cut on dude because i was pissed off, but don't lump me in with that other shit.



I should have been more clear in my separation. What I meant was you, F.A.B. were the only one in my opinion taking potshots. Then I should have made a separation and said nobody at all was racebaiting blah blah blah. I apologize for the insinuation of the other stuff.

BDC

(edited by BDC on 13.4.02 1640)
Notorious F.A.B.
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#100 Posted on 13.4.02 2117.31
Reposted on: 13.4.09 2118.16

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    And if anybody took offense, apologies to all (except for people like FAB, who just take juvenile potshots).


huh. "juvenile".

well doody on you.
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