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20.10.07 0328
The 7 - Baseball - Roid Rage
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jfkfc
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#1 Posted on 23.2.05 0918.07
Reposted on: 23.2.12 0919.47
Oy.

(image removed) (image removed)

Here is the transcript from ESPN.com (sports.espn.go.com)Why did he even bother with this press conference? Nothing new came out of this. Nobody thought he was going to admit anything, but the questions had to be asked. Please tell me that MLB will make him one of the first guys tested with their new "policy". About two weeks ago, Mike Francesa and Chris Russo on WFAN NY had Sandy Alderson on (wfan.com) (Requires Real Audio). Mike asked him point blank if MLB was going to treat Bonds' inevitable breaking of the career HR record as a major celebration. Alderson's response was essentially "I don't know yet." MLB isn't sure how and IF they are going to celebrate one of their most highly regarded records? That, to me, is a story.
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BigVitoMark
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#2 Posted on 23.2.05 1226.12
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1229.01
Officially, baseball should refuse to recognize the statistics of any player found to have been using steroids. Forget the asterisk, do like the Olympics and pretend they never happened. Barry Bonds won't be the home run king, he'll always just be a cheater in my eyes.

When the time comes, the Hall of Fame can make it's own judgment on the merits of players like Bonds, or Sheffield, or Jason Giambi. They can evaluate the "I didn't know what I was taking", or whatever other excuses are being thrown out there, according to their own criteria. Major League Baseball, however, should not acknowledge and certainly should not celebrate the "achievements" of players who not only cheated, but tarnished the reputation of the sport as a whole.
Zeruel
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#3 Posted on 23.2.05 1424.56
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1425.32
My favorite quote was him admitting to using without admitting it.

Excerpts from http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1997445

Here's what he's really saying.


    Bonds was entertaining as usual. Asked directly whether he'd ever used illegal substances, he said:

    "I'm not a child. You repeat those things to children and then eventually they tell you. I don't."


Rightttttt. "Just because I'm using, it doesn't me I'll tell you if you ask a million times. So there!"


    "I don't know what cheating is," he said. "I don't believe steroids can help your eye-hand coordination, technically hit a baseball. I just don't believe it. That's my opinion."


"Sorry honey, I don't know what cheating is. I just stumbled and my dick just FELL into her pussy. I SWEAR I didn't know there was anything wrong with that."


    He isn't convinced any of this will affect his legacy.

    "All of you guys have lied," he said. "Should you have an asterisk behind your name? ... Yeah, I lied to my parents when I was growing up. Lied to my friends. Have I lied about baseball? Yeah, I told a couple of stories that I hit a couple of balls places that I really didn't."

    He acknowledged that the controversy has been painful for his children and that he worries most about them.

    "I'm an adult and I take responsibility for what I do, but I'm not going to allow you guys to ruin my joy," Bonds said.


"I'm going to break the HR record and you're not. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, fuck you, I'm OUT."

-------------------------------------------------

    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Officially, baseball should refuse to recognize the statistics of any player found to have been using steroids. Forget the asterisk, do like the Olympics and pretend they never happened. Barry Bonds won't be the home run king, he'll always just be a cheater in my eyes.


What I hate is that on SportsCenter and Cold Pizza, they are basically saying the same thing then they ask each other. "Would you vote him in the hall?"

They all reply "YES! Look at his stats!" Yes. HUGE stats brought on by ROIDS!!! They all condemn him behavior but just blow a load over his record setting stats.
BigVitoMark
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#4 Posted on 23.2.05 1524.12
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1528.16
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    What I hate is that on SportsCenter and Cold Pizza, they are basically saying the same thing then they ask each other. "Would you vote him in the hall?"

    They all reply "YES! Look at his stats!" Yes. HUGE stats brought on by ROIDS!!! They all condemn him behavior but just blow a load over his record setting stats.


Agreed, and I wouldn't vote for anyone who cheated to get into the Hall of Fame. But since the Hall is an independent body, MLB's decisions regarding recognizing records is not binding on them. They need to be able to make their own decisions on eligibility.
Mr. Boffo
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#5 Posted on 23.2.05 1649.01
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1649.04
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Officially, baseball should refuse to recognize the statistics of any player found to have been using steroids.


Which Barry has not been. I think he used steroids, but unless he tells us, we won't ever know for sure. And I kind of look at this like the criminal justice system, in that it's worse for 1 innocent person to be found guilty than it is for 10 guilty guys to go free.
BigVitoMark
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#6 Posted on 23.2.05 2102.20
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2104.29
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
      Originally posted by BigVitoMark
      Officially, baseball should refuse to recognize the statistics of any player found to have been using steroids.


    Which Barry has not been.


Oh, hasn't he?
Mr. Boffo
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#7 Posted on 23.2.05 2136.09
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2136.14
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
      Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
        Originally posted by BigVitoMark
        Officially, baseball should refuse to recognize the statistics of any player found to have been using steroids.


      Which Barry has not been.


    Oh, hasn't he?

Yeah, I remember that. "Confidential jury testimony" that was leaked. It could have easily been made up, because there has been no verification of up, nor should there be. My point is that obviously they didn't catch him with any testing (because there wasn't any).
BigVitoMark
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#8 Posted on 23.2.05 2142.45
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2143.17
So...you're saying that Bonds admitted using steroids (allegedly) unknowingly because...?? If he was clean he would have said that he's clean. I don't recall a Bonds-esque tirade following this leak claiming that that wasn't what he said.

I don't care if Major League Baseball determines he cheated or if a federal grand jury determines he cheated. He cheated. Hank Aaron's 755 stands, and McGwire's 70 in 1998 is still the mark to beat.
wesman1111
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#9 Posted on 23.2.05 2159.10
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2203.26
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    McGwire's 70 in 1998 is still the mark to beat.


Barry's 73 home runs is the EXACT SAME SITUATION as McGwire's, though. McGwire (admittedly, even) was using what is now a banned substance. So Maris's 61 should still be the mark to beat, using your logic. I know you're a big McGwire fan, but he is just as big a cheater as Giambi (allegedly), Canseco, and (allegedly) Bonds.
wmatistic
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#10 Posted on 23.2.05 2202.52
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2205.02
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    So...you're saying that Bonds admitted using steroids (allegedly) unknowingly because...?? If he was clean he would have said that he's clean. I don't recall a Bonds-esque tirade following this leak claiming that that wasn't what he said.

    I don't care if Major League Baseball determines he cheated or if a federal grand jury determines he cheated. He cheated. Hank Aaron's 755 stands, and McGwire's 70 in 1998 is still the mark to beat.


I hate to admit this, but Gumbel had a good point on HBO ther other night. He said yes there is controversy here over how legit the numbers are. But if you take away what Barry has done, shouldn't you also look into taking away what Ruth did, since he didn't have to play against blacks? Isn't that an unfair advantage Ruth had over today's players?

I believe he took roids and that they helped him get bigger and kept his skills from declining as fast as some others. I don't believe they helped him make contact with the baseball. And considering that I'm thinking a whole hell of a lot of players were taking them while he was breaking records, it seems more of an even playing field than unfair advantage.

I'm not saying it's right, just that I really don't give a crap and let's just move on and hope it's never an issue again.
BigVitoMark
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#11 Posted on 23.2.05 2329.57
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2329.59
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    I hate to admit this, but Gumbel had a good point on HBO ther other night. He said yes there is controversy here over how legit the numbers are. But if you take away what Barry has done, shouldn't you also look into taking away what Ruth did, since he didn't have to play against blacks? Isn't that an unfair advantage Ruth had over today's players?


The counter-argument to that is that Bonds had a further unfair advantage because there weren't 30 teams worth of pitchers diluting the talent that Babe Ruth had to hit against. I there is merit to both points, but I don't think either should take away from what Ruth did. There are so many factors that change over time that I think the only fair standard to apply is whether the achievement was earned legitimately according to the standards of the day. You can debate whether 700 home runs means more now or 75 years ago, but if one guy hit them fairly and the other didn't, there is no debate to be had.

    Originally posted by wmatistic
    I believe he took roids and that they helped him get bigger and kept his skills from declining as fast as some others. I don't believe they helped him make contact with the baseball.


Nope, but since hitting home runs is a power issue, they help. If they didn't, no one would take them. Steroids will not make a guy off the street into an MVP, but can they take a guy's great power and make it legendardy? Apparently.

    Originally posted by wesman1111
    Barry's 73 home runs is the EXACT SAME SITUATION as McGwire's, though. McGwire (admittedly, even) was using what is now a banned substance. So Maris's 61 should still be the mark to beat, using your logic.


Not the same thing at all. Bonds was using illegal substances. McGwire broke no rule, be it created by MLB, the US government, or anybody else. You're right, I'm a huge Mac fan, but I tell you this...if evidence ever came out that he took steroids, I'd be the first one on this board to denounce him for it. But he didn't, and it hasn't. According to the rules of Major League Baseball and the laws of the land, McGwire might as well have been taking Flintstones chewable vitamins.
ShotGunShep
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#12 Posted on 24.2.05 0005.22
Reposted on: 24.2.12 0008.40
Vito, Flinstones vitamins won't give you his results, and neither will andro.....

wmatistic
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#13 Posted on 24.2.05 0022.29
Reposted on: 24.2.12 0023.15
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    The counter-argument to that is that Bonds had a further unfair advantage because there weren't 30 teams worth of pitchers diluting the talent that Babe Ruth had to hit against. I there is merit to both points, but I don't think either should take away from what Ruth did. There are so many factors that change over time that I think the only fair standard to apply is whether the achievement was earned legitimately according to the standards of the day. You can debate whether 700 home runs means more now or 75 years ago, but if one guy hit them fairly and the other didn't, there is no debate to be had.




I think the point is that how fair were Ruth's numbers when he wasn't playing the best out there? Sure he was playing the best white players. But would including the blacks have hurt his numbers? Maybe, maybe not. But I think it's safe to say we can legitimatly question his numbers based on this, compared to today's players. It's like that Japanese baseball player that has a crazy hit record. Sorry, I suck at names. His record is impressive, but not given the credit here because he didn't do it against he best competition, MLB players.




    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Nope, but since hitting home runs is a power issue, they help. If they didn't, no one would take them. Steroids will not make a guy off the street into an MVP, but can they take a guy's great power and make it legendardy? Apparently.




Very true. I think Barry would not have hit as many home runs, but that he would have hit for just a similar average. I would also guess that he would still be in the chase for the home run title, just not as close as he is now. There is no question his talent is legit.




    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Not the same thing at all. Bonds was using illegal substances. McGwire broke no rule, be it created by MLB, the US government, or anybody else. You're right, I'm a huge Mac fan, but I tell you this...if evidence ever came out that he took steroids, I'd be the first one on this board to denounce him for it. But he didn't, and it hasn't. According to the rules of Major League Baseball and the laws of the land, McGwire might as well have been taking Flintstones chewable vitamins.




I'm a huge McGwire fan too. Living in St. Louis and having gone to the games that year, I'm very biased. However I'm almost positive the guy did use steriods. He was big before, but he was so large at the end. I love the guy, but I just don't believe it was all without help. Andro was not banned at the time, so I understand the point you are making. However, steriods were not banned at one point in sports. Yet great numbers were very likely set using them before they were banned. going off what you are saying here, those numbers would be legit or not? Either you are against people using things that can improve their performance beyond normal means, or not. Whether they were legal at the time should not matter.

Whitebacon
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#14 Posted on 24.2.05 0258.43
Reposted on: 24.2.12 0259.01
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    Andro was not banned at the time, so I understand the point you are making. However, steriods were not banned at one point in sports.


Minor quibble: They were banned in other sports, just not baseball. They were also illegal in the United States by that point, unlike when Jose Canseco won his MVP/ROY awards.
jfkfc
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#15 Posted on 24.2.05 0754.44
Reposted on: 24.2.12 0759.01
    Originally posted by wmatistic
      Originally posted by BigVitoMark
      The counter-argument to that is that Bonds had a further unfair advantage because there weren't 30 teams worth of pitchers diluting the talent that Babe Ruth had to hit against. I there is merit to both points, but I don't think either should take away from what Ruth did. There are so many factors that change over time that I think the only fair standard to apply is whether the achievement was earned legitimately according to the standards of the day. You can debate whether 700 home runs means more now or 75 years ago, but if one guy hit them fairly and the other didn't, there is no debate to be had.
    I think the point is that how fair were Ruth's numbers when he wasn't playing the best out there? Sure he was playing the best white players. But would including the blacks have hurt his numbers? Maybe, maybe not. But I think it's safe to say we can legitimatly question his numbers based on this, compared to today's players. It's like that Japanese baseball player that has a crazy hit record. Sorry, I suck at names. His record is impressive, but not given the credit here because he didn't do it against he best competition, MLB players.
How can you logically compare a guy taking steroids, a chosen act which is illegal, against a guy who didn't play against blacks, which was not a chosen act? Did Ruth keep blacks out of baseball? Did he have an advantage over anyone else in the game at the time because there were no blacks playing? I think that arguement is what be called.....REACHING.

There is no physical proof that Bonds is taking or has taken steroids, unnamed grand jury testimony leakage source notwithstanding. Fine. Myself, and I would believe anyone else (although it's simply my opinion, would vehemently, arduously, categorically, totally, fruitfully, manically, excitedly, and quickly DENY any charges of such wrongdoing that was so false and hurtful to my reputation. I wouldn't refuse to talk about it. I would submit to a drug test IMMEDIATELY and do whatever I could right then and there to prove the allegations false. Then I'd sue for trillions....or at least enough to pay off my car, but I digress). Bonds has just been King Dick, and I was waiting for a reporter to ask the smartass question, "Barry, can you name your sources and show proof of your allegations of reporters lying?" I understand the beat writers for the Giants wanting to kiss his ass, but why didn't anyone think to ask that? What would he have done, dove off the dais and kicked the reporter's ass? Talk about a monetary windfall and headlines for weeks to come!
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#16 Posted on 24.2.05 0755.22
Reposted on: 24.2.12 0759.02
David Schoenfeld on ESPN.com wrote this excellent column a few months ago taking the "well if you take him out because of, then you have to take him out because of" argument to the top home run seasons of all-time, and he deduced that the "real" home run record is 49, but Ted Kluszewski, Harmon Killebrew, and Frank Robinson.
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