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The 7 - Pro Wrestling - RAW 02/21
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I Breastfeed John Madden
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#61 Posted on 22.2.05 2319.47
Reposted on: 22.2.12 2319.48
I agree with CRZ (even with his usual condescending tone).

How hard would it be to have AT LEAST a "hidden camera" view? At best, another wrestler (Orton, for example) could come up to Batista and say that he thinks something is fishy with the scenerio. Or that he overheard something. Have Bradshaw plead with Dave that he wasn't involved. ANYTHING but what they gave us.

It was a cheap cop-out any way you look at it.

And I'm sick of hearing how they have handled Batista's turn better than Orton's. It was pretty much the same thing; tease, tease, tease, abrupt payoff.

This doesn't have much to do with this angle, but think back to the unfinished Angle/HHH/Steph program. THAT was a good buildup that didn't have a payoff. The writing during that period was superb. THIS is a par-for-the-course buildup with a typical "attack during a contract signing" payoff.

I'm not saying that I could do the job by any means, but isn't the WWE paying these writers to come up with something somewhat original or entertaining? Something that will create intrest beyond the PPV for the month? Or does it just not matter as long as there is a temporary spike in cheesy merchandise sales?

I think I just answered my own query.

I need to learn that there is never going to be intelligent writing in pro wrestling. I need to learn that they don't care about me. Or you.




(edited by StevieRichards on 22.2.05 2127)
NickBockwinkelFan
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#62 Posted on 22.2.05 2357.38
Reposted on: 22.2.12 2359.01
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Contrast that with the team of "writers" working for WWE that had weeks (or even MONTHS) to plot out the final act of Batista's Big Turn on Triple H, and they took the cheap and lazy way out.

I truly believe this is the essence of the problem. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that the writers need to be brought up in the business in order to write logical tv, look at Chris Kreski. He was in charge of continuity during apex of business and he didn't cut his teeth setting up rings in VFWs in Tennessee. He left to co-author Shatner's Star Trek Memories series, and the continuity has suffered since. It seems like nobody even cares how awful it is.

Cheap and lazy sums it up.


    Originally posted by CRZ
    I, The Viewer, DESERVE better. Am I going to get it if I don't DEMAND better? Hell, I probably won't get it either way. But the WWE damn sure won't get my fifty bucks come April 3rd if they can't promote an event I want to pay for, and building a storyline that I give a damn about is still the best way to promote an event. I can't think of ONE match or storyline on RAW that I would pay to watch play out. Now, sure, this isn't a problem if I'm just one man alone railing against the system and withholding his fifty clams...but what if I'm NOT?

I've been thinking about this myself. I really dig Batista, but I don't think he's capable of working a decent 8 minute non-squash style match, let alone main event Wrestlemania. Batista's slow build and the split from Evolution was handled perfectly, as everyone loves Dave.

But the problem now is...Batista's got to deliver the goods in the the ring. He has to wrestle now, not just power bomb somebody threw a table. HHH will really have to prove his greatness in this one, as he's always had the luxury of working with HBK, Angle, Foley, Benoit, etc in the big event.

Other than Angle vs HBK, there's not even a proposed WM 21 match I want to see, let alone pay $50.00 for. I've ordered every Mania since WM 13, and even though my PPV has decreased exponentially, I still go for the big shows like Mania, the Rumble and Summerslam (I've been getting Pride and UFC or buying Japanese tapes instead of getting the other WWE shows).

I really wonder if I'll get Mania this year.






(edited by NickBockwinkelFan on 23.2.05 0107)
JustinShapiro
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#63 Posted on 23.2.05 0023.16
Reposted on: 23.2.12 0023.29
"It was a cheap cop-out any way you look at it."

For me it's an annoying but ultimately insignificant one. I don't agree at all with the dudes who have said "shaddup! it's wrestling! you think 2 hard!", because I think all the criticism of the segment is totally valid. But I think it's a bummer if magic camera skit completely invalidates the whole storyline for you, everything that came before it and everything that came after it. Blowing it would have been Evolution punking out Dave, not one superfluous skit right before the major angle.

One lazy moment is a pretty minor complaint I have for an angle that has otherwise been handled really well, including in the way more important segment that came right after that one. I don't know if I'm perfectly happy having my intelligence insulted, but I can strategically figure out which intelligence-insults are so unforgivable that they ruin everything and which ones aren't.


"And I'm sick of hearing how they have handled Batista's turn better than Orton's. It was pretty much the same thing; tease, tease, tease, abrupt payoff."

!

It was pretty much the complete opposite thing.

Orton's turn: one conversation speculating about an all-Evolution SummerSlam; zero teases; turn before anyone expects, wants, or cares about it.

Batista's turn: three months of teases building to the exact payoff people wanted -- and were made to want -- to see.

The two angles were about as different as it gets, although it's kind of ironic that the second one started with an angle that was a million times more insulting than this one (Fake Batista Turn Fooled Ya).


"THIS is a par-for-the-course buildup"

This is so far from par for the course. Par for the course in WWE is barely any buildup whatsoever. I can only think of about two other long-term angles like this one since Mania 19, the Orton/Foley feud and the Trish/Jericho romance.

If by par for the course, you mean there weren't enough twists and surprises, I don't know what to tell you. At its core, wrestling has like five archetypal storyline that every good, successful angle is just another version of. Some are done better than others, but I think this one had some notably good performances by Batista and HHH.

(edited by JustinShapiro on 23.2.05 0133)
Freeway
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#64 Posted on 23.2.05 0038.53
Reposted on: 23.2.12 0039.51
Justin, compare & contrast the last 3 RAW WrestleMania main events:

XXI: Batista gradually becomes better as a wrestler, mentor HHH becomes more and more insecure. Finally, Batista wins the Rumble and HHH hatches scheme to avoid his protege. Batista sees through the lies and turns on him.

XX: Benoit struggles on Smackdown and gains title shot, but gets screwed out of the title by Brock Lesnar & Paul Heyman forbids anymore title shots unless Benoit can win the Rumble. He does, but jumps to RAW with little-to-no explanation and gets inserted into the neverending HBK/HHH feud stemming from Triple H taking over DX leadership when Michaels went down with a career-ending back injury 6 years previous.

XIX: Booker T wins 20-man Battle Royal on RAW, but Triple H thinks having "someone like him" (either someone with a criminal record or a black guy) challenging for the World Title was a mockery. The concept was to be ambiguous with the hate towards Booker T to make HHH a stronger heel, but Booker T lost the match and was made to look much weaker, even though he was undefeated for the month between winning the #1 contender's spot and WrestleMania.

We got one badly thrown-together match, a non-sensical show switch and (so-far) a very well build-up feud. While the devil is in the details, it's the bigger picture that ultimately decides how successful the feud (and WrestleMania) will be.
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#65 Posted on 23.2.05 0900.04
Reposted on: 23.2.12 0900.27
    Originally posted by CRZ
    I'm not going to bother repeating myself AGAIN about internal logic and consistency and all that crap because obviously a certain portion of the audience is perfectly happy either (a) having their intelligence insulted or (b) not having sufficient intelligence to feel insulted.



Maybe a certain portion of the audience is perfectly happy with (c) knowing that they have the "sufficient intelligence" to know that it's just a tv show and to not take it so seriously.

Hey, if you didn't like how the show played out or ended, that's totally cool and fine. But it's not cool insinuating to people that they do not have "sufficient intelligence" simply because they don't share the same opinion as you did with how the show unfolded. (Didn't mean to sound like Carlito there...lol)
CRZ
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#66 Posted on 23.2.05 0933.08
Reposted on: 23.2.12 0933.17
    Originally posted by Kevintripod
      Originally posted by CRZ
      I'm not going to bother repeating myself AGAIN about internal logic and consistency and all that crap because obviously a certain portion of the audience is perfectly happy either (a) having their intelligence insulted or (b) not having sufficient intelligence to feel insulted.



    Maybe a certain portion of the audience is perfectly happy with (c) knowing that they have the "sufficient intelligence" to know that it's just a tv show and to not take it so seriously.
And I would say those people fit under (a).

    Hey, if you didn't like how the show played out or ended, that's totally cool and fine.
See, your three posts in this thread suggest you feel otherwise!

    But it's not cool insinuating to people that they do not have "sufficient intelligence" simply because they don't share the same opinion as you did with how the show unfolded. (Didn't mean to sound like Carlito there...lol)
I don't mean for you to take it personally, but this kind of casual hand-waving, hoping that the break in logic just kinda goes away is exactly the type of careless attitude that's been displayed by the writers on several occasions. You may not think it this time, but if they continue to operate under the SOP of "it doesn't matter where the cameras are" there WILL come a time where it collapses under its own weight and even the most forgiving viewer will say "Whoa. This is really too much. Why am I even bothering?"

Me, I'm a crazy dreamer - I'm STILL hopeful that this kind of sloppy writing can be identified and avoided/rewritten before airtime in the future - but my patience is wearing real thin.

Unfortunately, it seems more likely that the perceived "fix" for this will be to have Ross and Lawler pretend they NEVER see any backstage stuff, just like WCW tried to get Tony, Bobby and Mike to do during Nitro - managing to insult our intelligence even MORE - and I'm sure you don't need me to remind you how well Nitro is doing today. A lot of people looked the other way back THEN, too...not to mention made sure to email me telling me how wrong I was about feeling any kind of outrage about my intelligence being insulted, so maybe you can understand why I feel I have the high ground here. History can only repeat itself one more time before I have NO wrestling to watch - and I'm not saying it's going to come to that any time soon, but it's imperative that the right people stop being blind to the signs. This guy's post on this message board probably won't open any eyes that count, but I do love to hear the sound of my own voice.
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#67 Posted on 23.2.05 1023.22
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1029.01
I was a million times more insulted by seeing Batista acting like a chump the day after New Year's Revolution, but that's just me. My un-educated guess is that more people notice *that* kind of character inconsistency.
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#68 Posted on 23.2.05 1139.29
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1141.04
Invisible camera, no invisible camera, all I know is my jaded "Wrestling sucks now" brother and I marked *OUT* when Batista gave the thumbs-down and sent HHH through the table.
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#69 Posted on 23.2.05 1341.43
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1343.20
    Originally posted by CRZ
    But the WWE damn sure won't get my fifty bucks come April 3rd if they can't promote an event I want to pay for, and building a storyline that I give a damn about is still the best way to promote an event. I can't think of ONE match or storyline on RAW that I would pay to watch play out. Now, sure, this isn't a problem if I'm just one man alone railing against the system and withholding his fifty clams...but what if I'm NOT?







April 3rd, 8PM EST/7PM CST: Which would be a more entertaining storyline: Anything Vince thinks up and charges 50 bucks for, or Schilling vs. Johnson on YES, NESN, and the Deuce for no additional fee? Mania buyrate might get damaged in two of their historic markets that night.
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#70 Posted on 23.2.05 1701.57
Reposted on: 23.2.12 1702.08
Oh shit...Wrestlemania's the same day as Opening Day? And the same time, too? I know which way I'm leaning...Samuel Adams and ESPN2 all the way.
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#71 Posted on 23.2.05 2135.12
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2135.15
First off, let me say that the "invisible camera" is pretty stupid. I really dislike any of the "locker room talk" that we see and would rather see a backstage interview than some cheap, convenient expository dialogue. Furthermore, it does pain me, as it pains other people, that these people are TV writers, but they can't write consistent and logical TV, let alone compelling TV. They are paid, not to be "wrestling bookers" but rather people who are supposed to know things about TV shows. Quite frustrating indeed.

BUT (big but, and I'm really echoing Justin here), that is really not all that important in the larger sense. The Batista turn has been great. The way that he and HHH and Flair have played this has been perfect. I really, really enjoyed the in ring payoff. I also heard that the Invisible Camera scene gave away the result before the payoff, yet these same people had said for weeks that they knew Batista was staying on Raw. Puzzling.

Anywayy, if I didn't want to accept "having my intelligence insulted" I wouldn't watch wrestling. I really don't even see it as them insulting my intelligence, because clearly the writers must be smart enough to realize that people will question things like this. And if they don't realize that, well, that is not a good thing.
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#72 Posted on 23.2.05 2142.40
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2143.14
I would have liked to see Randy Orton doing the reveal. In my fantasy booking, it goes like this: Everything out in the ring plays out the same until after Triple H is done giving his speech. Orton makes his appearance. He says "Batista, I warned you long ago not to trust Triple H. Before everyone got here today, I hid a camera in Evolution's locker room. You might find it interesting." The footage rolls. We cut back to Batista's expression. Triple H says that Randy Orton is the one that can't be trusted. He'd do anything to break Evolution apart. And we get Batista's decision, the same way it happened on screen with the contracts.
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#73 Posted on 23.2.05 2154.37
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2157.45
Obviously the way around the whole hidden camera angle was to have "Just Joe" be the guy eavesdropping and telling Batista later in the show. This would have led to a HHH/Flair vs. Batista/Just Joe main event for RAW next week, and thus no wrestling fan would feel insulted.
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#74 Posted on 23.2.05 2233.01
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2233.01
OK, I watched this off of my DVR and I know that I'm a few days late here... so bear with me.

Why can't they do something with a fan who gets a conversation on his Camcorder, or Batista sees someone's MoBlog with pictures of HHH putting the limo together, or some mystery person sends in pawn shop surveilance footage of Trips buying the horns...

There were so many different ways to have Batista get the information, the audience get the information, and the plot to move on. This angle is ALWAYS lazy and STUPID. Sorry to pile on late in the argument but it's one of my pet peeves (runs in the family?)
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#75 Posted on 23.2.05 2236.08
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2236.26
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    OK, I watched this off of my DVR and I know that I'm a few days late here... so bear with me.

    Why can't they do something with a fan who gets a conversation on his Camcorder, or Batista sees someone's MoBlog with pictures of HHH putting the limo together, or some mystery person sends in pawn shop surveilance footage of Trips buying the horns...


Considering the recent Raw/SD interaction, Rey Rey DOES have the 619 Cam that could have been used for just that purpose.
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#76 Posted on 23.2.05 2259.34
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2303.23

    Why can't they do something with a fan who gets a conversation on his Camcorder, or Batista sees someone's MoBlog with pictures of HHH putting the limo together, or some mystery person sends in pawn shop surveilance footage of Trips buying the horns..


along those lines, easy enough: since they're begging us to take "Carlito tries to get Teddy Long fired" as a important storyline, and their segment at NWO was all about "Teddy must sign Batista - or else (and Carlito has inside info about it)", couldn't they have tied up both storylines and easily had Carlito supply Batista with the Secret Plan Info, somehow?

Instead of Batista listening outside the door, the hook of the bit is him almost getting in the room to hear the conversation and finding out the plot, but stopping short of the room to take a phone call. Same segment in ring, with Batista turning, and Carlito can (claim to have) say he called Batista on RAW to let him know what he was watching on his TV. neat and done.
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#77 Posted on 23.2.05 2321.06
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2321.11
    Originally posted by The Goon
    Obviously the way around the whole hidden camera angle was to have "Just Joe" be the guy eavesdropping and telling Batista later in the show. This would have led to a HHH/Flair vs. Batista/Just Joe main event for RAW next week, and thus no wrestling fan would feel insulted.


Another reason why Joe E. Legend shouldn't have been released. He was the best purveyor of info in the biz.
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#78 Posted on 23.2.05 2336.42
Reposted on: 23.2.12 2341.36
I think we're all missing one other big problem: when did Ric Flair turn into such a moron? If this was JBL explaining his plan to the Bashams it would be one thing, as they've always looked like idiots, but this wasn't JBL and the Bashams: it was RIC FUCKING FLAIR.
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#79 Posted on 24.2.05 0148.05
Reposted on: 24.2.12 0155.30
I think Ric was actually shocked by Hunter's confession, but as Trips went on talking about why he did it, he changed initial reaction and said, "Hunter, you're a genius." As such, I think that Flair's loyalties are still very much unknown-- clearly, he was stunned that Hunter was behind the whole thing, and that he'd actually do something like this to one of his own teammates.

I didn't mind the mystery camera all that much... in any event, I marked out big-time when Trips went through that table.
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#80 Posted on 24.2.05 0901.36
Reposted on: 24.2.12 0908.52
Heck, if you're really going to get into it, why have the magic camera when you could have just had a camera man follow Batista to the locker room. It would make sense for a camera to catch up with Batista as soon as he got to the building, and it would have made sense for Batista to head to Evolution's locker room. All you do is have Batista stop before he goes in, and have the camera catch everything HHH and Flair say. I think the writers got so preoccupied with trying to be "clever" with the surprise reveal that they didn't realize how stupidly contrived the whole setup was.
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