The W
Views: 100813015
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Color chart | Log in for more!
24.11.07 1442
The 7 - Movies & TV - UFC Ultimate Fighter Register and log in to post!
(1462 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (17 total)
NickBockwinkelFan
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 556/773
EXP: 1459469
For next: 26468

Since: 10.4.02
From: New York City, NY

Since last post: 954 days
Last activity: 35 days
#1 Posted on 20.2.05 1547.31
Reposted on: 20.2.12 1549.23
This show has built tremendously in the past five episodes. The first two weren't so great, with standard reality show cliches (meet the cast, getting on each others nerves, the lame "challenges") and no fighting. But with episode 3, they finally hit their stride. Episodes 3 & 4 featured good fights and excellent storylines building up the participannts and fleshing out their personalities.

Episode 5 was extremely hot featuring many classic pro wrestling style angle builders out of Cornette's Wrestling Booking 101:

Establishment of an asshole heel faction: Southworth and Koscheck get drunk and antagonize Leben to the point of physical violence

The double turn when the heels humiliate the freshly turned babyface: Leben, by virtue of Southworth calling him a fatherless bastard (after Leben confided that he had just met his father for the first time ever last week and was fucked up by it) becomes incredibly sympathetic (despite being the asshole in episode 1) and Southworth and Koscheck go from hard working, dues paying, weight cutting tough fighters to chickenshit bullies

Huge blow off match: This Monday 2/21

Having all the fighters go out for dinner and non-stop drinking after being limited to the house and the training facility for 3 weeks was an awful idea. This led to everything that occured.

Dana White wanted to throw the guys off the show, but as Liddell and Couture pointed out, "this is a fight show...let them decide it in the octagon."

Koscheck didn't seemed that excited about it as he had essentially ducked Leben the week before.

Leben is pumped. Quote: "Now I can cave in his skull without going to jail."

The WWE has forgotten how to build an angle (probably due to the tv guys they have developing the storylines with zero knowledge of history) and this is so basic you forget how much heat it can generate. I haven't personally been looking forward to a match this much in a couple of years. Try to catch the rebroadcast, but try the show on Monday if you haven't yet. At least you'll see a monster grudge match...and it's a shoot.



(edited by NickBockwinkelFan on 20.2.05 1712)
Promote this thread!
BigSteve
Pepperoni
Level: 65

Posts: 413/1091
EXP: 2214326
For next: 121314

Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2873 days
Last activity: 2601 days
#2 Posted on 20.2.05 1733.54
Reposted on: 20.2.12 1734.11
Are they replaying this again? Meltzer has been crowing about how great this was on his site for the past week, so I figured I'd give it a looksee to see what all the hype is about?
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator
Level: 131

Posts: 1206/5254
EXP: 26197323
For next: 227367

Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 17 min.
#3 Posted on 20.2.05 1814.32
Reposted on: 20.2.12 1815.14
The last replay of that episode was just before Sunday Night Heat, so you've probably missed already.

The episode was really all about building up to a match for this Monday Night, so that episode might be still be worth checking out even if you missed the lead up.
StaggerLee
Scrapple
Level: 141

Posts: 2312/6360
EXP: 33777701
For next: 342397

Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 11 min.
Last activity: 11 min.
#4 Posted on 21.2.05 1152.46
Reposted on: 21.2.12 1158.23
I am loving this show! ALthough, how many cauliflower ears can one person look at in an hours time?

Boston Idol
Blutwurst
Level: -1

Posts: 164/257
EXP: -729883
For next: 1009821

Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2901 days
Last activity: 2694 days
#5 Posted on 21.2.05 1632.57
Reposted on: 21.2.12 1634.07
    Originally posted by NickBockwinkelFan
    Southworth and Koscheck get drunk and antagonize Leben to the point of physical violence...


Said "violence" consisting of Leben hitting himself in the
head with a beer bottle in a play for sympathy, Leben hitting
an innocent glass window in a play for sympathy, and Leben
tearing down an innocent door to get to Toscheck, who was
not behind that door. All that crap was down to Chris Leben.

As for the "double turn", the other fighters, the coaches,
and the producer frequently reminded us that Chris had taken
a whizz in another fighter's bed earlier in the series. He
was described multiple times as "a guy who can dish it out,
but who can't take it", which isn't really babyface material.

    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I am loving this show! ALthough, how many cauliflower ears can one person look at in an hours time?


How many times can one person watch one shirtless man groom
another shirtless man without making the obvious connection?
How many times will Chris let Nathan hug him before he figures
out why Nathan cares so much about him. I'd call it an
undercurrent, except it was pretty obvious by the time the
producer showed all the guys hanging out shirtless by the pool.

Then again, few pro wrestling fans got the message when the
markazines ran pictures of Keirn and Lane sharing a hayride
together with no girls around. Speaking of which, this show
has fewer girls than an Evolution vignette. Pretty creepy.



Frank
NickBockwinkelFan
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 561/773
EXP: 1459469
For next: 26468

Since: 10.4.02
From: New York City, NY

Since last post: 954 days
Last activity: 35 days
#6 Posted on 21.2.05 1723.48
Reposted on: 21.2.12 1726.35
    Originally posted by Boston Idol
      Originally posted by NickBockwinkelFan
      Southworth and Koscheck get drunk and antagonize Leben to the point of physical violence...


    Said "violence" consisting of Leben hitting himself in the head with a beer bottle in a play for sympathy, Leben hitting an innocent glass window in a play for sympathy, and Leben tearing down an innocent door to get to Toscheck, who was not behind that door. All that crap was down to Chris Leben.


The violence I was referring to was the punching out the window pane and the destruction of the bedroom door. He tore his knuckles up in the process. I'm sure he would have rather tore his hands up bashing in Koscheck's face (as he tried to do the previous week when Kosckeck convieniently ducked him) but even drunk off his ass, Leben knew a fight outside of the octagon was a no-no.

    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    As for the "double turn", the other fighters, the coaches, and the producer frequently reminded us that Chris had taken a whizz in another fighter's bed earlier in the series. He was described multiple times as "a guy who can dish it out, but who can't take it", which isn't really babyface material.


That's the essence of the double turn in my book.

Leben was a complete jackass in the first episode. He got drunk, talked shit about everybody's skills (including the guy he knocked out), antagonized everybody and then pissed on the bed of the dopey looking underdog field filler (who along with a few of the other guys here only got on the show due to the elimination of more qualified candidates due to criminal records). He got called out by Chuck, Randy and Dana to straighten up and not blow this huge opportunity and he snapped out of it. He's continued his braggadoccio since then, but has assumed a more cocky persona who has shown that he wants to fight, not saw logs and participate in relay races with La-Z-Boys and medicine balls.

Southworth and Koscheck built up their profiles through hard work. Koscheck is an NCAA Champion wrestler and that's credential enough. Southworth, even though he whined and bitched his way through the weight cutting episode (incidentally without Koscheck and Liddell riding his ass--he would have been DQ'd), cut 25 pounds in 24 hours and then knocked his opponent out. That built up a ton of respect for these guys. Then after getting drunk and acting like dicks all night ("Hey lets throw the $700 Weber into the pool!" "No, let's go turn the hose on the guy who's sleeping outside just to avoid us").

Leben tried to avoid these guys. Koscheck didn't want to fight Leben the week before, but with the biggest guy in camp standing next to him he sure talks alot of shit. Leben may have been an asshole in episode 1, but ever since he's been all about training, fighting and helping the team.

Leben: Started out asshole heel, changed his ways and morphed into likable tweener. After being fucked with about his parantage (classic 70's Memphis Booking 101) he becomes sympathetic.

Southworth & Koscheck: An NCAA Champ and workmanlike pro with experience build up credibility and support through hard work and team work. Blow it all in huge one-night wave of textbook heat.

Hence, the double turn.




(edited by NickBockwinkelFan on 21.2.05 1832)
Boston Idol
Blutwurst
Level: -1

Posts: 165/257
EXP: -729883
For next: 1009821

Since: 17.2.03
From: San Jose, CA

Since last post: 2901 days
Last activity: 2694 days
#7 Posted on 21.2.05 1807.09
Reposted on: 21.2.12 1814.04
:: Leben tried to avoid these guys.

Nah, Leben tried to punish himself to make himself a more
sympathetic figure, just like when he cracked himself in
the head with the beer bottle and punched out the window.
Neither the coaches nor the other fighters bought into it,
with members of both groups very pointedly saying "he can
dish it out, but he can't take it." Would Lance Russell
have made a comment like that about a Memphis babyface?
Perhaps some fans decided to root for Leben, but clearly
the producers weren't trying to make him a babyface there.

Frank
NickBockwinkelFan
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 563/773
EXP: 1459469
For next: 26468

Since: 10.4.02
From: New York City, NY

Since last post: 954 days
Last activity: 35 days
#8 Posted on 21.2.05 1833.27
Reposted on: 21.2.12 1834.02
    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    :: Leben tried to avoid these guys.

    Nah, Leben tried to punish himself to make himself a more
    sympathetic figure, just like when he cracked himself in
    the head with the beer bottle and punched out the window.
    Neither the coaches nor the other fighters bought into it,
    with members of both groups very pointedly saying "he can
    dish it out, but he can't take it."


I don't think he was trying to garner sympathy, I think Leben is damaged goods emotionally. I think through MMA he's allowed to vent all his frustrations.

I totally agree that no one seemed to give a fuck what was happening to Chris other than Nate (both Team Quest guys training in Oregon with Couture). I think everybody was turned off to him in the first show, so they liked seeing him get screwed with. Having the people who are on opposite teams living in the same house is asking for trouble. Unlike any other reality show (Tough Enough included) these participants have to shoot fight. So it's a highly volatile situation that is put on the fast track by alchohol.

    Originally posted by Boston Idol
    Would Lance Russell
    have made a comment like that about a Memphis babyface?
    Perhaps some fans decided to root for Leben, but clearly
    the producers weren't trying to make him a babyface there.

    Frank


I don't think they were trying, but like with Batista in WWE, sometimes these things just happen organically.

orangeman
Salami
Level: 32

Posts: 80/224
EXP: 205234
For next: 1210

Since: 21.8.04
From: ...that would be telling

Since last post: 3079 days
Last activity: 3025 days
#9 Posted on 21.2.05 2322.14
Reposted on: 21.2.12 2322.22
Well, show's over tonight and Koscheck won a unanimous 2 round decision.

Not much at all happened on the feet, Leben seemed kinda gun shy. He knew what Josh's plan was and didn't want to get close enough to allow the shoot, but he didn't put any punches together at all. He repelled a few shots, but did get taken down. Josh didn't do anything to hurt him on the ground, and neither guy really took much damage at all. Chris tried an armlock from the bottom but couldn't hold it. Ref stood them up when Josh wasn't doing much on top, but Chris didn't use the stand ups to his advantage to get aggressive with his strikes. Fight was a bit anti-climatic, but the tension from last week building for the first 3/4 of this show was still palpable.

Words were exchanged afterwards. Chris was pissed for losing to guy he thought did nothing but lay on him most of the fight, claimed he wasn't done with Josh. Josh just did the routine trash talk you'd expect.

Person this sucks most for is Couture, who loses another fighter, and this one was perceived as his best fighter from the start.
Daddyblack
Weisswurst
Level: 11

Posts: 6/18
EXP: 4572
For next: 1414

Since: 30.1.05

Since last post: 3438 days
Last activity: 3421 days
#10 Posted on 21.2.05 2325.25
Reposted on: 21.2.12 2325.30
Man, did I just see him cry AGAIN??
NickBockwinkelFan
Frankfurter
Level: 57

Posts: 565/773
EXP: 1459469
For next: 26468

Since: 10.4.02
From: New York City, NY

Since last post: 954 days
Last activity: 35 days
#11 Posted on 21.2.05 2342.16
Reposted on: 21.2.12 2342.36
Well this is why MMA has popularity issues. No matter how exciting the build-up, a lousy, boring, actionless fight is bad for business and generating any casual interest.

In shoot fighting, you never know what the fight will be like. Even with a huge grudge element, like in tonight's fight with Leben vs Koscheck, there is no guarantee of the match's quality.

There was a huge stylistic clash between Koscheck (NCAA Champion wrestler) and Leben (hard punching KO artist).

In the two rounds Koscheck had 3 takedowns and just laid on Leben. As a champion level grappler, Koscheck was able to score take downs, but had absolutely no offense. Leben showed Koscheck too much respect and didn't attack.

Koscheck was dominant for all the "action" on the ground.

By virtue of the way they have this set up (two 5 minute rounds with judges scoring), Koscheck won easily on the judges cards with his takedowns being essentially the only scoring moves of the fight.

I thought there'd be some fireworks in this one, but in was a snooze. The fights in episodes 3 & 4 were vastly superior.

Koscheck implemented his gameplan perfectly. Knowing he couldn't stand up and strike with Leben he did what he does best...wrestle. I think with his tremendous grappling skills, if he could develop some ground & pound technique, he could do very well. I'm sure Leben will return as well at some point.

This episode had great build to it and the first 40 minutes had you rubbing your hands together eager to see the fight.

The fight just failed to deliver any excitement.
anibanging
Italian
Level: 35

Posts: 197/246
EXP: 263024
For next: 16914

Since: 5.3.02

Since last post: 2049 days
Last activity: 95 days
#12 Posted on 22.2.05 0401.38
Reposted on: 22.2.12 0401.42
Anyone watching earlier episodes more closely than I notice if Chris is actually a southpaw or was he just adjusting his stance to Josh? If so it explains a bit why he might have had some trouble mounting a stand up offence. He looked uncomfortable working with his left so now I'm curious.


Also what's the rules with choking? Obviously Diego slapped one on Alex a couple of eps ago but are any chokes barred? It seemed like both fighthers had the opportunity to put one on an didn't. Is that just missed chances/armchair fighting or are there some rules regarding chokes. I'm a little new to the show and the UFC so sorry for the ignorance.

(edited by anibanging on 22.2.05 0523)
emma
Cherries > Peaches
Level: 88

Posts: 1181/2089
EXP: 6403437
For next: 247253

Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#13 Posted on 22.2.05 2330.19
Reposted on: 22.2.12 2333.04
    Originally posted by anibanging
    Anyone watching earlier episodes more closely than I notice if Chris is actually a southpaw or was he just adjusting his stance to Josh? If so it explains a bit why he might have had some trouble mounting a stand up offence. He looked uncomfortable working with his left so now I'm curious.
Didn't Josh say inside this episode that he was happy to have a couple of lefties on his *own* team to train with, just to get prepared for fighting the lefty Chris? IMO Chris is just way too much of a head case to be effective in any really high-stress match-up. (Josh was being kind of a punk-ass bitch, but I'll take that over a yappy, immature nut job any day.)
Sobriquet
Bauerwurst
Level: 23

Posts: 49/106
EXP: 67045
For next: 679

Since: 25.7.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 2264 days
Last activity: 2262 days
#14 Posted on 26.2.05 2253.51
Reposted on: 26.2.12 2254.02
Leben is a southpaw -- he looked awkward because most southpaws look awkward.

I was actually quite surprised that Koscheck won by decision -- having done nothing but take Leben down, I didn't think the judges would award him both rounds. The commentary was also very misleading: we were constantly reminded that if the judges came up with a draw, there'd be a sudden death round.

I mean, they must have said it half a dozen times. Even Dana said it once or twice. Naturally, as a viewer, I was psyched for the sudden death.

Then Koscheck inexplicably wins by decision in one of the most boring MMA fights ever televised. Sad.

I'm not saying Leben won that fight... he clearly didn't. But neither did he lose. For him to have to walk away from the show after that fiasco is truly a shame.

Yeah, he's an ass -- but so are many MMA fighters. I mean hey, Liddell is a jerk, but he's an octagon god. Jackasses come with the territory. Losing an exciting fighter and keeping a total bore is bad for the show, period.
emma
Cherries > Peaches
Level: 88

Posts: 1185/2089
EXP: 6403437
For next: 247253

Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#15 Posted on 27.2.05 0232.08
Reposted on: 27.2.12 0240.40
That's "Sudden Victory" -- I snicker at the obvious PR undertone of that every time they say it. :-)

While I don't disagree with your overall sentiment, Sobriquet, are you saying it was really a "wrong" decision, given the rules of the contest? I watched it, was totally sure that Koschek was no doubt the winner -- at least by my understanding of the rules. Any other implication was, to me, just editing-for-TV-drama. (The opposing editing-for-TV-drama in the commentary was that Koscheck didn't have any chance at all, since Leben is sooo much more experinced, won so many more fights, was so motivated, etc.)

I totally agree: basically all Koscheck did was take (& keep) Leben down. No doubt. Meanwhile, Leben did *absoluteley nothing*. Given Koscheck's experience level (as compared to Leben's) & Leben's mental state, that was precicely the "cerebral assassin" way for Koscheck/Liddell to go. Very intelligent strategy. (Exciting fight, no. Smart win, yes.) Leben, for all the yapping, just didn't *do* diddly. From a "put up or shut up" perspective, Leben came up with nothing.


(edited by emma on 27.2.05 0134)
Sobriquet
Bauerwurst
Level: 23

Posts: 50/106
EXP: 67045
For next: 679

Since: 25.7.04
From: Canada

Since last post: 2264 days
Last activity: 2262 days
#16 Posted on 27.2.05 1000.26
Reposted on: 27.2.12 1001.31
Ah yes, "sudden victory" -- I'm the product of too much tv, and as such my attention span and memory suffer somewhat.

In any case, you're right that according to the rules, Koscheck won. I don't think it was as clear cut as many people think, however, as Leben *was* punching and working on Koscheck the entire time he was down. They weren't very effective strikes, because he was against the cage and on his back, but at least he was on the offensive. There's an argument that Koscheck spent about 5 seconds working and on the offensive -- one second, give or take, for each take down.

"The busier fighter" goes a long way with judges, and it is that, coupled with the tone of the show (all the "sudden victory" stuff) that led me (and the people I was watching with) to believe there'd be no decision and it'd go to the final, sudden victory round.

Many have said it, but it bears repeating: boring fights / mat wrestling is one of the key reasons why MMA won't break out of its niche market.

Koscheck proved that rather handily.

I mean, imagine if you're new to MMA through this show. You've watched a few episodes. They're good tv. You see the leadup show to this, and you're psyched. This is gonna be a WAR. Then the pay off is Koscheck sitting on Leben for ten minutes.

They would have been more exciting if they were in the kitchen with Martha Stewart, baking cookies, and talking about the colour pink.

orangeman
Salami
Level: 32

Posts: 86/224
EXP: 205234
For next: 1210

Since: 21.8.04
From: ...that would be telling

Since last post: 3079 days
Last activity: 3025 days
#17 Posted on 27.2.05 1013.43
Reposted on: 27.2.12 1014.39
The thing is though that if you're striking from the bottom you have to be scoring damage for it to sway the judges into maybe thinking you're not losing as opposed to the guy who took you down and is in the dominant position. Additionally, if you can use it to improve your position and get yourself on top, it would count for something. Leben didn't have any of that, so his being busier in terms of number of strikes attempted when both were on the ground really meant nothing.
ALL ORIGINAL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE NOW AVAILABLE
Thread ahead: 77th Annual Academy Awards Prediction Thread
Next thread: The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy - Secret Snake Club
Previous thread: Mr Tony on XM Monday
(1462 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
Related threads: the Ultimate Fighter - UFC Ultimate Fighter on Spkie TV - More...
The 7 - Movies & TV - UFC Ultimate FighterRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board - 7 year recycle

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim
This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.193 seconds.