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29.8.07 0050
The 7 - Print - NEW AVENGERS -or- Why can't Bendis do any wrong?
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Cerebus
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#1 Posted on 5.2.05 1506.00
Reposted on: 5.2.12 1506.26
Issue #3 came out this week and yet again, it's surprised me. All I keep hearing and reading is how Brian Michael Bendis can't control a story. How all his storys get dragged out for two or three issues too many. Well, I'd like someone to tell me that after reading the first three issues of this series.

Sure, it could have been very easy to drag the story out for six or eight issues and have it neatly ready for a trade collection, but he went the smarter route and opened the third issue AFTER everything a;ready happened, with Cap and Stark just talking to each other. I liked it.

I don't like the idea of not a single villan during the fight recognized Peter when the took off the mask though. Couldn't just one of them say something like "HEY! I know you, I saw you on E! You're married to that supermodel!" or something like that but since there's not gonna be a mansion, I guess they don't have to out Peter just yet. I'm thinking give it some time, he'll go public and Mary Jane and Aunt May will move in to the Stark Enterprises building or something.

Mostly, Im waiting for the inevitable team-up of Aunt May and Jarvis... I have a feeling it'll work out somehow.

...yeah, I'm a dork.

Anyone who thought Bendis had a 'thing' for Purple Man can give that up now. I'm hoping this was the last of him cause that was extremely cool with him and Luke Cage and the way Purple Mans eyes conveyed that 'Oh Shit!' look would make a nice 'Adios' to the character for a long while.
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odessasteps
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#2 Posted on 5.2.05 2109.50
Reposted on: 5.2.12 2111.36

I think I would really love this book if it weren't called "Avengers."

Also, Avengers Tower seemed a little too Watchtower for my taste.
Tenken347
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#3 Posted on 5.2.05 2157.40
Reposted on: 5.2.12 2159.01
I don't think Purple Man is going anywhere, he's a major player over in Thunderbolts right now.
DrewDewce
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Y!:
#4 Posted on 6.2.05 1453.18
Reposted on: 6.2.12 1453.41
    Originally posted by odessasteps

    I think I would really love this book if it weren't called "Avengers."

    Also, Avengers Tower seemed a little too Watchtower for my taste.


Yes, "Defenders" or even "Champions" would have been much better in my opinion. Those characters will never feel like the "Avengers" to an old fan like me. Of course, they're probably not meant to, so there ya go.
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#5 Posted on 6.2.05 1846.52
Reposted on: 6.2.12 1848.18
    Originally posted by DrewDewce
      Originally posted by odessasteps

      I think I would really love this book if it weren't called "Avengers."

      Also, Avengers Tower seemed a little too Watchtower for my taste.


    Yes, "Defenders" or even "Champions" would have been much better in my opinion. Those characters will never feel like the "Avengers" to an old fan like me. Of course, they're probably not meant to, so there ya go.


Marvel Logic: Any team with Captain America on the roster HAS to be called either The Avengers or The Invaders.

There already IS an Invaders book. Avengers is all that's left.
Pizza Pasta
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#6 Posted on 7.2.05 1346.29
Reposted on: 7.2.12 1346.33
I've been very disappointed with a lot of Bendis's work lately; everything from Powers to the Pulse to even Ultimate Spider-Man had been slipping, and I wondered if the large volume of work the guy churns out was catching up to him. Then he went and wrote three awesome issues in a row of New Avengers and all was immediately forgiven.

Case in point, he just absolutely nailed so many of the main characters in #3 - Captain America's stoic optimism, Tony Stark's more pessimistic counter to Cap, Spidey's insecurity (and asking if there was any money in being an Avenger), Daredevil as a loner who immediately turns down the invite, and "Man of the Streets" Luke Cage accepting because he wants his unborn daughter to remember her dad as a hero.

Are these the "Avengers?" Was Jack of Hearts or Captain Britain? Who cares? It's a bunch of interesting characters that look like they will work well together and I'm looking forward to seeing where the journey goes.

Special props to Dave Finch for the cover to NA #3, too. That awesome picture of the Sentry is now my PC's wallpaper.
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#7 Posted on 7.2.05 1419.08
Reposted on: 7.2.12 1419.15
I've followed the book, and yes, Bendis is doing a marvelous job. Granted, it's not the classic Avengers. That's why it's called 'New Avengers'. If I'm not mistaken, the Avengers were first 'assembled' back in the day because they were the most popular Marvel characters. Having seen a few trade magazines (the kind your local comic retailer looks through if you want something obscure), that's exactly what New Avengers is going to be. I won't post spoilers, but the line-up probably isn't 100% complete, based on images I've spotted. Well, okay, a slight spoiler, as if nobody else picked it up yet; Jessica Drew isn't being paid off by villains, per-se.

So far confirmed;
Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and Sentry.
Jim Smith
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#8 Posted on 7.2.05 1801.37
Reposted on: 7.2.12 1805.23
    Originally posted by Cerebus
    Issue #3 came out this week and yet again, it's surprised me. All I keep hearing and reading is how Brian Michael Bendis can't control a story. How all his storys get dragged out for two or three issues too many. Well, I'd like someone to tell me that after reading the first three issues of this series.



OK. This story's already been dragged out at least one issue too many. #1-2 could have easily been compressed into one issue, except we had to spend half a dozen pages of #1 taking a tour of the Raft and hearing what's been going on in Daredevil's book.

To be fair, I've had this problem with Avengers since Busiek left. Every time I read an issue, it doesn't seem like anything really happened--at one point during the Geoff Johns run, I accidentally skipped over an issue, and didn't even notice until I looked at the number on the covers.

What really happened in #3? Cap talked to a lot of people. That's the entire issue. Which isn't to say that I want nothing but non-stop mindless action, but there was room to do more here. I'm three months into this series and I feel like I'm only up to page 14 of the first issue. At this rate it'll be #12 before the New Avengers even find Electro.

I don't mind if Bendis wants to introduce a new team, but the way he's going about busting up the old and bringing in the new feels incredibly arbitrary. Nothing that happened in Disassembled struck me as being traumatic enough to convince every single Avenger to take time off, so it's odd to see Cap and Tony talking as if everybody but themselves up and quit. If Cap and Tony are prepared to operate the team without Stark funding, why didn't they think of that before they broke up the team to begin with? And what's the point of arranging circumstances to get the Avengers out of one of Tony's mansions, if you're immediately going to move them into one of Tony Stark's penthouses? If your down-to-earth, sponsorless Avengers aren't going to forego a swank headquarters, why not...rebuild Avengers Mansion?

I really want to like this new direction. On paper it seems as good as anything the Avengers have done before, and they've certainly done worse. I just want to get the team assembled and get down to business, but we're 60% of the way into the first arc and they haven't even recruited Sentry and Wolverine yet. So I'm stuck in a holding pattern with Bendis's inane dialogue ("Yes." "Me?" "Yes." "Wow." "You in?" *pause*) until something actually happens.
DrewDewce
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#9 Posted on 7.2.05 2010.14
Reposted on: 7.2.12 2010.20
    Originally posted by Jim Smith

    To be fair, I've had this problem with Avengers since Busiek left. Every time I read an issue, it doesn't seem like anything really happened--at one point during the Geoff Johns run, I accidentally skipped over an issue, and didn't even notice until I looked at the number on the covers.



I'm usually of the opinion that if you miss an issue you should be able to pick up on what's going on very easily if the writer is doing their job properly so I wouldn't necessarily think that was a problem.

As the saying goes: "Every issue is someone's first issue."

As much as I love Busiek in a writer to fan way, I thought Geoff Johns did a great job following up his run. Chuck Austen, not so much.
Freeway
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#10 Posted on 7.2.05 2337.18
Reposted on: 7.2.12 2338.52
    Originally posted by DrewDewce
      Originally posted by Jim Smith

      To be fair, I've had this problem with Avengers since Busiek left. Every time I read an issue, it doesn't seem like anything really happened--at one point during the Geoff Johns run, I accidentally skipped over an issue, and didn't even notice until I looked at the number on the covers.



    I'm usually of the opinion that if you miss an issue you should be able to pick up on what's going on very easily if the writer is doing their job properly so I wouldn't necessarily think that was a problem.

    As the saying goes: "Every issue is someone's first issue."

    As much as I love Busiek in a writer to fan way, I thought Geoff Johns did a great job following up his run. Chuck Austen, not so much.


Busiek's run was awesome, and the long-planned Kang Dynasty finale was superb. The plan was for Geoff Johns to have a nice long run (at least a year's worth of issues, maybe even two or three) but DC signed him to an exclusive contract after World Trust so they had to rush to find a replacement. Chuck Austen, then Marvel's go-to guy when it came to quick fill-ins, ended up getting a long run because they simply couldn't find anyone better. Then they got Bendis.

The result was Johns' run continued a lot of cool stuff from the Busiek run, but the Austen run basically ignored everything that went before.

And the "every issue is somebody's first" is a good theory, but in practice it doesn't usually work out. Avengers pre-Disassembled did about 55-60K per issue, suggesting that a lot of the same people bought the issues. Disassembled sold about 140K [#500], 91K [#501], 93K [#502], 105K [#503] & 101K [Finale]. That suggests that Disassembled brought in a combination of curious new fans and Bendis fans. New Avengers #1 did about 240K, suggesting that most of the people from before stayed on and fans of Spider-Man, Wolverine and the other new additions jumped on, too. We'll know for sure how well things are holding up when the January sales figures are released in a couple weeks.
Big Bad
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#11 Posted on 8.2.05 0109.40
Reposted on: 8.2.12 0112.13
Making Spider-Man's ID public would destroy the character. End of story.

Luke Cage says he isn't a team player?? Defenders?! Heroes for Hire?! Reserve member of the FF?! Sheesh.

Making Spider-Woman a spy is an interesting twist, since I was wondering what such a random character was doing in the Avengers anyways.

I'm just about ready to give up on this book, just because Bendis' writing continues to piss all over continuity.
Jim Smith
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#12 Posted on 8.2.05 0304.44
Reposted on: 8.2.12 0305.03
    Originally posted by DrewDewce
      Originally posted by Jim Smith

      To be fair, I've had this problem with Avengers since Busiek left. Every time I read an issue, it doesn't seem like anything really happened--at one point during the Geoff Johns run, I accidentally skipped over an issue, and didn't even notice until I looked at the number on the covers.



    I'm usually of the opinion that if you miss an issue you should be able to pick up on what's going on very easily if the writer is doing their job properly so I wouldn't necessarily think that was a problem.

    As the saying goes: "Every issue is someone's first issue."


I agree each issue should be accessible, and it was great that I was able to read #74 without buying #73. But each issue should also be substantive in its own right, and my point is that nothing of note really happened in #73. When I went back to the store to get the issue for completion's sake, I felt like a grade-A sucker, because I knew nothing happened in it. Johns could have left that issue's plot out of his story arc, and nothing would have been affected, except that Avengers fans would save $2.95 on what amounted to a throwaway issue.

Marvel's problem these days is that they seem determined to stretch short stories into five or six issue arcs that can be presented in trade paperback form. I'm all for compartmentalizing every five or six issues for that purpose, but each set of issues don't have to tell one really slow story when two or three little ones will work just as well. A TPB of six issues of the Busiek/Perez Avengers would be packed with a lot more plot than six issues of the Bendis/Finch Avengers, and if I had to pick one I'd go with the most bang for my buck.

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Luke Cage says he isn't a team player?? Defenders?! Heroes for Hire?! Reserve member of the FF?! Sheesh.


To be fair, the Defenders and Fantastic Four were paying Cage to be on their teams--it's easy to be a team player if the money's right. And he rejected the invitation to join the Heroes For Hire until the Master of the World coerced him into serving as a mole in the group.
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#13 Posted on 10.2.05 1009.02
Reposted on: 10.2.12 1009.36
Being a DC guy, I was drawn to Dissassembled and liked it a lot. So I've been led into New Avengers, and so far it's ok.

The best part is definitely the art, as I just can't seem to like Bendis' writing.

The thing with Spider-Man's mask being pulled off must have been done for a reason, because if no one was supposed to recognize him, why have it get ripped off? And to be realistic, it's not like anyone would recognize him anyways. How many of those villains watch E! or know what every New Yorker looks like or what they do?

And where the hell was Sentry in #3? He's on the frikkin cover and I was hoping they would explain why he's the most powerful hero on Earth or whatever. But no, just appears in a flashback. He wasn't even at the tower.

All this recruiting crap should have taken place in a pre-series special or something. Instead I'm stupidly buying each issue just to watch the team tat was on the front cover of issue #1 get assembled. Woopdy-doo.

I think I'm done buying the individual issues and I'll just wait for the TPB.
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#14 Posted on 10.2.05 1229.34
Reposted on: 10.2.12 1232.47
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Luke Cage says he isn't a team player?? Defenders?! Heroes for Hire?! Reserve member of the FF?! Sheesh.


I'm apathetic about Bendis, but I agree that Luke Cage isn't exactly a team player. His two most recent team efforts have tanked. In 2000-2001 he was a part of Daredevil's unofficial "Knights" team. The team never had a name, their HQ was destroyed and it ended badly and quickly.

In 1997-1998 he was part of the updated Heroes for Hire, which also ended badly and quickly.

Defenders were never officially a team, always known as the "non-team". Cage wasn't as frequently a member as, say, Nighthawk or Devil-Slayer were.

His FF stint was part of his Hero for Hire gig. He was never a real member, just hired help.

He worked with Iron Fist for years, but they were more of a partner situation. Fair enough, since I've never considered "Batman & Robin" or "Captain America & the Falcon" as "teams".

His experience with "teams" has been spotty at best and the Avengers are definitely more of a structured team environment. Unlike the loose associations Cage has had in the past. When he has been on a team (Daredevil's "Knights" and Heroes for Hire v. 2) it hasn't turned out well.

One point that irked me was Spider-Man and Cap not mentioning Spidey's previous stints in the Avengers. Around 1983 he tried to join up (Avengers 236-237). Later in 1990 he was officially a member (310-316), but quit after feeling out of place fighting Nebula and jumping across the universe. He was then a reserve member for another year or two. (note: The Spidey that tried to join way back in Avengers #11 was a Kang robot). A simple "Aw, man, we've tried that before, Cap" would have worked. But Spidey DID mention the salary aspect, which was a part of his membership attempt back in #236.

    Originally posted by bradbice

    All this recruiting crap should have taken place in a pre-series special or something. Instead I'm stupidly buying each issue just to watch the team tat was on the front cover of issue #1 get assembled. Woopdy-doo.

Then I take it you're also upset with New Thunderbolts? It's also taken 3+ issues to assemble the team that appeared on the cover of issue #1

--Editted to get the quotes right.
(edited by estragand on 10.2.05 1033)

(edited by estragand on 10.2.05 1034)
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#15 Posted on 10.2.05 2204.40
Reposted on: 10.2.12 2207.09
The first issue I picked up last weekend, and issue #3 I borrowed from a friend. Both are good reads, even though I feel like I missed some really cool stuff in issue #2. I thought the first issue plays off very well by not rushing things. Remember, guys...a good story doesn't just happen, it DEVELOPS. The defense/reasoning for Luke Cage being on the team was absolutely tremendous, as mentioned by another user, and I applaud Bendis for it.

Anyway, I think Bendis has done an outstanding job re-tooling the Avengers franchise although it being hailed as the number one series in comics right now is a bit much. Can I mention how ridiculous it is that a character that started off as a practical joke (The Sentry) is now one of the focal points of the series? One of the things that always made Marvel appealing over DC and other companies was that they had firmly established limits for their characters' powers. The Sentry character is just way too powerful, and I hope they have enough sense to get rid of him as soon as possible. Actually, he'd make a really good villain...

    Originally posted by Lexus
    So far confirmed;
    Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, and Sentry.


I like the idea of an all-star lineup a lot better...when you don't have to worry about what the characters in a team book are doing in their own series, and have a bunch of other characters whose sole purpose in life/employment is being an Avenger, you get lazy in your writing and it shows. At the same time, you also sort of need a couple characters like that to balance it out, hence why I'm not all THAT up-in-arms about Spider-Woman being on the team. As for Sentry, I've already made my point there.

I was speculating with a friend of mine as to the identity of the member with nunchuks on the cover of Issue #1. I thought it might be Night Thrasher, the most out-of-style superhero EVER, and cringed. (Side note - if I was a comics writer, one of the first things I'd do is disband and/or destroy the New Warriors.) The friend, however, brought up the point that Murdock needs to sort of move away from the Daredevil persona a bit because of his public "outing," and as a result may create another identity/alter-ego for his time with The AVengers. Makes sense, although the idea of Daredevil on the team really doesn't set my world on fire. Idunno, maybe it's because I hate emo, and he's one of the most emo characters in comics right now. In other words, he'd be a real pain in the ass to have on your team.

    Originally posted by Jim Smith
    Nothing that happened in Disassembled struck me as being traumatic enough to convince every single Avenger to take time off, so it's odd to see Cap and Tony talking as if everybody but themselves up and quit.


I disagree...watching several of your team members die, realizing what an absolute target you are, and being betrayed by one of your own in a MAJOR way would be pretty traumatic. In fact, I don't think Bendis did ENOUGH to convey how incredibly reluctant Stark should have been to do this.

Bendis was also smart in having them all realize that as much as they don't want to, the world NEEDS an Avengers in the case of outbreaks like the one in the first three issues. So far, so good, and its nice to have what's supposed to be the elite team in the Marvel Universe be elite, and not have crap storylines. I'm also hoping that Bendis will keep it Earth-based for as long as possible, but that's a wholly different rant altogether.

(edited by Deputy Marshall on 10.2.05 2307)
Freeway
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#16 Posted on 11.2.05 0126.24
Reposted on: 11.2.12 0126.32
On Bendis' message board, two names bandied about were Iron Fist and Matt Murdock, but in a different costume. Bendis said it isn't either of them.

And the emo Daredevil run by Bendis & Alex Maleev ends in December. Between now and then, we get Decalogue and The Murdock Papers. Decalogue involves the year-long reign Murdock had as the Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen and how it affected the region, relayed via the Ten Commandments. And The Murdock Papers closes out the Bendis/Maleev run with the government realizing that Matt Murdock defrauded the government by (possibly) being Daredevil and set out to nail him to the proverbial cross.
Jim Smith
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#17 Posted on 11.2.05 0224.35
Reposted on: 11.2.12 0225.36
    Originally posted by Deputy Marshall
      Originally posted by Jim Smith
      Nothing that happened in Disassembled struck me as being traumatic enough to convince every single Avenger to take time off, so it's odd to see Cap and Tony talking as if everybody but themselves up and quit.


    I disagree...watching several of your team members die, realizing what an absolute target you are, and being betrayed by one of your own in a MAJOR way would be pretty traumatic.


I would argue that the just about all the Avengers who appeared in #500-503 understood the risks well before any of this happened. It's not as if Disassembled was the first time being an Avenger made you a target.

As for feeling betrayed by Wanda--to be blunt, there are some Avengers who've barely even met Wanda. I can absolutely understand why her closest friends would want to take an indefinite vacation from being Avengers right now, but also-rans like Stingray or Firebird aren't going to be close enough to the situation to let it keep them down. Now, obviously Marvel's goal here was not to populate the Avengers with reservist second-stringers who don't know Wanda very well, but they needed a better gimmick to get such characters out of the way. And heck, Captain America and Warbird are two of Wanda's dearest friends, and they're getting on with their lives. (Don't even get me started on why Cap waited this long to protest the disbanding and form a new team--he clearly resented Tony's decision from the moment it was announced, and he always had the authority to revive the Avengers.)

My main contention with how Bendis busted up the old Avengers is that there's something like 70 of those guys--even when you leave out the dead and the guys like Moon Knight who've severed ties with the team, you still have about 40 people. That's forty or so Avengers with wildly different motivations and personalities, and they aren't going to be uniformly depressed into disbanding by the same event. Something that convinces Yellowjacket that the Avengers are finished isn't always going to convince Photon, and something that convinces Photon won't necessarily stop the Black Knight from taking up the reins, and so on and so on. Everytime everyone on the team up and quits, there's five or six others waiting to take their place, usually within days.

Bendis would have been better off by injuring more of the reservists during the Kree attack in #502 and Wanda's last stand in #503. I can buy a storyline that leaves 90% of the Avengers physically unable to carry on the team, because that's about the only way you can bench some of these guys. The flesh is sometimes weak, but with the Avengers the spirit is always willing.
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