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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - AP: Kerry gaining in Ohio!!!!!!! Register and log in to post!
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CRZ
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#1 Posted on 28.12.04 2358.50
Reposted on: 28.12.11 2359.01
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_us/ohio_vote&cid=536&ncid=536

I'd love to know who at Y! thought this would be a good headline...


    Ohio Recount Ends, Shows Vote Closer

    Tue Dec 28, 7:41 PM ET

    By JOHN SEEWER
    Associated Press Writer

    TOLEDO, Ohio - Election officials finished the presidential recount in Ohio on Tuesday, with the final tally shaving about 300 votes off President Bush's six-figure margin of victory in the state that gave him a second term.

    The recount shows Bush winning Ohio by 118,457 votes over John Kerry (news - web sites), according to unofficial results provided to The Associated Press by the 88 counties. Lucas County, home to Toledo, was the last to finish counting.

    The state had earlier declared Bush the winner by 118,775 votes and plans to adjust its totals to reflect the recount later this week.

    The Kerry campaign supported the recount, but said it did not expect the tally to change the election winner. Supporters of the recount, requested by two minor party candidates, said they wanted to make sure every valid vote was counted.

    Kerry gained 734 more votes in the recount, and Bush picked up 449, mostly from disqualified ballots that were counted in the second tally because hanging chads had come loose when ballots were handled again or rerun through counting machines.

    That put Kerry 285 votes closer to Bush. The president's victory margin declined by about three dozen more votes when some counties adjusted their certified vote totals.

    The Green and Libertarian party presidential candidates asked for the recount and raised the $113,600 required under state law for the process.

    Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell has estimated that the recount will end up costing taxpayers $1.5 million.

    MORE (story.news.yahoo.com)
Click on the link to get Jesse Jackson's reaction!
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The Thrill
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#2 Posted on 29.12.04 0926.38
Reposted on: 29.12.11 0929.03
    Originally posted by CRZ, already quoting Yahoo! News
    Kerry gained 734 more votes in the recount, and Bush picked up 449, mostly from disqualified ballots that were counted in the second tally because hanging chads had come loose when ballots were handled again or rerun through counting machines.


Dear God, not again...
Dahak
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#3 Posted on 29.12.04 1336.48
Reposted on: 29.12.11 1337.39
See that proves my point. There is as many dumb and lazy Republican voters as dumb and lazy Democrat voters. Of course the DNC has based their entire voting platform for the last 4 years that their voters are unable to follow basic voting rules but at the same time are in general smarter than Republican voters. Hopefully after getting whipped the last 2 elections they will finnaly forget about Florida in 2000.
I hope that Ohio, Oregon, Florida, New Mexico, Nevada, and whatever states that have had problems in the last 3 elections actually learn something and fix the problems that have come up. I just think that the conspiracy theories are well fucking stupid.
BigSteve
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#4 Posted on 29.12.04 1505.23
Reposted on: 29.12.11 1505.50
    Originally posted by Yahoo
    The voters, supported by the Rev. Jesse Jackson, have cited irregularities including long lines. . .


Now if irregularities like that don't show that Bush helped to fix the election, I don't know what does. Really, people, can we please stop the madness?
Ozzysun
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#5 Posted on 31.12.04 0025.44
Reposted on: 31.12.11 0028.57
I read earlier tonight that the "third party" wants a 2nd recount of Ohio.
I mean comon lets waste another 1.5 million to find out that Bush still won.
StingArmy
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#6 Posted on 31.12.04 1004.17
Reposted on: 31.12.11 1004.51
    Originally posted by BigSteve
      Originally posted by Yahoo
      The voters, supported by the Rev. Jesse Jackson, have cited irregularities including long lines. . .


    Now if irregularities like that don't show that Bush helped to fix the election, I don't know what does. Really, people, can we please stop the madness?


While long lines didn't make enough of a difference to swing the election, you'd be a fool if you think they were trivial. I think the point is that the voting was so skewed an inefficient in some areas, voting was just downright impractical. Think filibuster.

I agree though, it's over.

- StingArmy
TopTenPro
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#7 Posted on 31.12.04 1323.25
Reposted on: 31.12.11 1323.26
Instead of the tax payer having to spend to recount votes from an election that is pretty much forgotten, why not have the parties demanding the recount pay for it. The end result would be the same, and the entire mess would be swept under the rug. No party that pays for the recount is going to announce they screwed up and did lose after all, nor will they announce that a state is stupid and missed nearly 200,000 votes in this box over here.

Long live our president, GWB!
StaggerLee
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#8 Posted on 31.12.04 1410.54
Reposted on: 31.12.11 1410.58
Long lines were a "problem"?

Did they expect no lines when you have record voter turnout?

Grimis
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#9 Posted on 31.12.04 1459.44
Reposted on: 31.12.11 1500.05
I always like how long-lines somehow means "voter disenfranchisement"
CRZ
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#10 Posted on 31.12.04 1630.43
Reposted on: 31.12.11 1631.19
    Originally posted by TopTenPro
    Instead of the tax payer having to spend to recount votes from an election that is pretty much forgotten, why not have the parties demanding the recount pay for it.
Maybe they did! Maybe you should read the story before you comment on it so you don't look so ignorant!
messenoir
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#11 Posted on 31.12.04 1630.50
Reposted on: 31.12.11 1631.23
Edit/ Not while people are still dying.

(edited by messenoir on 31.12.04 1436)
Dahak
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#12 Posted on 31.12.04 1719.00
Reposted on: 31.12.11 1719.02
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Long lines were a "problem"?

    Did they expect no lines when you have record voter turnout?




I have to agree with you and Grimis on this one. If there were no options than to go to your local grade school and waiting in line for 6 hours I would agree it's pretty BS. But it's fairly easy to get a absentee ballot in most states. If Ohio is strict on this then maybe the should change it.
If the people who were going to vote for Kerry decided they didn't want to wait in line to vote they really don't have much to complain about at least on the national level. Go to the city and state govt and complain about there not being enough polling places. But saying it's some huge GOP conspiracy is fucking stupid. If you don't like the local policy change it just stop blaming the GOP for everything.
Jaguar
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#13 Posted on 31.12.04 2033.47
Reposted on: 31.12.11 2035.46
Actually, with the amount of Republican victories the past few Novembers, I feel pretty confident that blaming everything on the GOP is hitting the mark more often than not.

-Jag
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#14 Posted on 1.1.05 0357.05
Reposted on: 1.1.12 0357.05
    Originally posted by the Yahoo! story
    A group of voters citing fraud have challenged the election results with the Ohio Supreme Court. The voters, supported by the Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites), have cited irregularities including long lines, a shortage of voting machines in minority precincts and problems with computer equipment.


I know it's Jesse Jackson and all, but even the noted Liberal rag Christian Science Monitor says the long lines and crappy voting machines could use fixin' and since Republicans control the Ohio state government, you might say they're complicit in the faulty nature of the voting situation. Voter fraud isn't unheard of and shabby treatment of minorities is old hat, so why not draw that short line to conspiracy? Whatever riles up the proles voting block.
Dahak
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#15 Posted on 1.1.05 1827.18
Reposted on: 1.1.12 1827.18
Then the people should complain to their state govt. I agree that there should be more voting machines and probably loosen up the vote by mail requirements. Find out what the problems were and then fix them.
But I guess I don't agree that because lines were long and that voting machines had some issues that GWB stole the election. It's pretty hard to prove that Kerry would have made up much ground. There are about as many Bush voters who couldn't follow the instructions. The long lines might have been worse in urban (liberal) areas but that is always going to be a problem. It's always more of a pain in the ass to get around Cleveland than Powdunk. Use vote by mail or open up the polling places earlier. The election day concept is outdated and a 3 day "vote weekend" might be a better idea.
The DNC has lost the last 2 elections in large part because they couldn't stop whining about Florida in 2000. I am not a Bush fan but Kerry had nothing to offer. They just ran him on the "at least he isn't Bush" platform. Continuing to bitch about it isn't gaining them anything at all so complaining about this election and trying to invent some controversy will just continue to hurt them.
Crimedog
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#16 Posted on 2.1.05 2215.01
Reposted on: 2.1.12 2218.33
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by TopTenPro
      Instead of the tax payer having to spend to recount votes from an election that is pretty much forgotten, why not have the parties demanding the recount pay for it.
    Maybe they did! Maybe you should read the story before you comment on it so you don't look so ignorant!


One tiny problem. The candidates were only required to pay $10 per precinct, under Ohio law. Which worked out to about $136,000. That law will probably be changed reallllllllll soon now.
too-old-now
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#17 Posted on 3.1.05 1601.54
Reposted on: 3.1.12 1602.41
The placement of voting machines in Ohio was done by supervisor of elections Ken Blackwell, who ran Bush's campaign in Ohio. Even though voter registration was way up across the board in Ohio, it was moreso in the cities and areas Kerry ended up winnning by higher margins. Yet, these were areas where no additional machines were given, and hence the longer lines.

There are a lot of lessons to be learned from this election, and the prior elections. The inherent conflict of interest between a supervisor of elections and the campaign manager being the same person is appalling. The decisions made to exclude "provisional" ballots etc. is voter suppression.

I think it is important to continue to bitch about the problems that happened, to make sure they get fixed. However, I agree that the anybody but Bush approach the DNC took was weak and shortsighted.

But what do I know, I'm a whiny liberal from a blue state.
Crimedog
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#18 Posted on 4.1.05 0045.49
Reposted on: 4.1.12 0046.02
    Originally posted by too-old-now
    The placement of voting machines in Ohio was done by supervisor of elections Ken Blackwell, who ran Bush's campaign in Ohio. Even though voter registration was way up across the board in Ohio, it was moreso in the cities and areas Kerry ended up winnning by higher margins. Yet, these were areas where no additional machines were given, and hence the longer lines.

    There are a lot of lessons to be learned from this election, and the prior elections. The inherent conflict of interest between a supervisor of elections and the campaign manager being the same person is appalling. The decisions made to exclude "provisional" ballots etc. is voter suppression.

    I think it is important to continue to bitch about the problems that happened, to make sure they get fixed. However, I agree that the anybody but Bush approach the DNC took was weak and shortsighted.

    But what do I know, I'm a whiny liberal from a blue state.


You also happen to be flat wrong. Voting machine placement is based on turnout from the previous election. Registration is absolutely irrelevant because there's no way of knowing how many people are actually going to turn out. I'd be willing to bet that in the next election, there will be more voting machines out than people know what to do with.

Ken Blackwell is not just the supervisor of elections. He's the Secretary of State. By law, regardless of political affiliation/activities, the Secretary of State is the ultimate authority on election procedures. And, provisional ballots being excluded? Only if the person was in the wrong precinct. It's not terribly hard to figure out where to vote, but I can easily see how one might go to the wrong polling place. But not even being in the right precinct? Or the right county? Sorry, I'm not buying that that's "voter suppression." It's INSANELY easy to register to vote in Ohio, so I'm not too sympathetic to people who were in the wrong county/never registered.

And, I'm wondering how many people who were new registrants even bothered. It's real easy to sign up at a concert or on campus because all your friends are, but I doubt that a lot of the folks that were signed up in non-traditional ways turned out. After all, if they didn't take voting seriously enough to ever register before, why assume that they'd do it now?

Look, there were long lines almost everywhere in Ohio, even in my precinct, which is heavily Republican. (One of those "exurbs" everybody loves to talk about.) There was no conspiracy. Put the tinfoil hat away. There was ridiculously high turnout EVERYWHERE, not just in Democratic areas. It took me an hour to vote. It normally takes about two minutes. It took my roommate's dad about three hours. Yet we both voted. We didn't say "screw this. I'm going home." I know people who waited, literally, SEVEN FREAKING HOURS to vote. Yet they did. So why is it okay to say that long lines only disenfranchised Democrats, when there's absolutely NOTHING to substantiate the allegations that there were only long lines in heavily Democratic precincts?

too-old-now
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#19 Posted on 4.1.05 0140.13
Reposted on: 4.1.12 0140.16
I give a lot of credit to those who waited in long lines for hours to cast their vote, and agree the lines were long everywhere. But there is a huge difference between waiting 1-2 hours and 5-7 hours for a chance to vote. You can't deny that the reports of the longest lines were in heavily Democratic registered precincts. This is vote suppression, plain and simple, nothing new.

I concede that not all folks registered as Democrats voted Kerry, nor did all registered Republicans vote Bush.

After the "outrage" that happened in the 2000 elections, voters were led to believe their votes counted, and the problems with punch card ballots/hanging chads etc. were history. But the problems with electronic vote tabulation and no paper trail make the problems worse. The problems were not just in Ohio nor Florida.

As a mathematician, I am appalled at the sweeping under the rug of the differences between the exit polls and the "certified results". Statistically improbable results that all went Bush's way in counties without paper trails, yet the totals matched where the paper trails were kept.

I'd hope that for future elections there will be more voting machines, but with folks like Ken Blackwell running the show, I don't have a lot of faith. Rep. Conyers has put forth some good questions that should be addressed.

I'd hope that folks like you who live in Ohio would put pressure on the elected officials to make the process more transparent and credible.

Crimedog
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#20 Posted on 4.1.05 2350.15
Reposted on: 4.1.12 2350.18
    Originally posted by too-old-now
    I give a lot of credit to those who waited in long lines for hours to cast their vote, and agree the lines were long everywhere. But there is a huge difference between waiting 1-2 hours and 5-7 hours for a chance to vote. You can't deny that the reports of the longest lines were in heavily Democratic registered precincts. This is vote suppression, plain and simple, nothing new.

    I concede that not all folks registered as Democrats voted Kerry, nor did all registered Republicans vote Bush.

    After the "outrage" that happened in the 2000 elections, voters were led to believe their votes counted, and the problems with punch card ballots/hanging chads etc. were history. But the problems with electronic vote tabulation and no paper trail make the problems worse. The problems were not just in Ohio nor Florida.

    As a mathematician, I am appalled at the sweeping under the rug of the differences between the exit polls and the "certified results". Statistically improbable results that all went Bush's way in counties without paper trails, yet the totals matched where the paper trails were kept.

    I'd hope that for future elections there will be more voting machines, but with folks like Ken Blackwell running the show, I don't have a lot of faith. Rep. Conyers has put forth some good questions that should be addressed.

    I'd hope that folks like you who live in Ohio would put pressure on the elected officials to make the process more transparent and credible.




1. How is unprecendented turnout voter suppression? Like I said, voting machine placement is based on the turnout numbers from the previous election. It's not enough to say that since lines were long, people were disenfranchised. Show me proof that someone who was a valid voter was improperly turned away and I'll agree that it's suppression.

2. THE EXIT POLLS WERE WRONG. Okay? First of all, the early data that was leaked was inaccurate. It always is until enough of a sample size can be gathered to give an accurate portrayal. You should know that. Second, this is the third big election in a row _ 2000 presidential, 2002 midterm and 2004 presidential _ that the exit polls were inaccurate. Quite simply, the way the exit polling was done is fundamentally broken and needs to be changed before it can be trusted. For example, in Ohio, there has been explosive growth in semi-rural and rural areas. There's been a statistically significant population shift. Yet the exit polling hasn't been adjusted. And when you combine that with folks hanging on to early exit poll data that cannot possibly be sound because the sample size is too small, you see why there was such a difference.

3. I agree that there were problems. And they need to be fixed. But John Kerry did not win Ohio. George Bush did. Legitimately.
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