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The 7 - Baseball - A's Down to "one Ace"
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odessasteps
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#1 Posted on 18.12.04 1845.42
Reposted on: 18.12.11 1846.27

from the 4 letter:

ESPN.com news services

The Oakland Athletics continued to wheel and deal Saturday, sending starting pitcher Mark Mulder to the St. Louis Cardinals for pitchers Danny Haren, Kiko Calero and catcher Daric Barton, ESPN's Peter Gammons has learned.

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Whitebacon
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#2 Posted on 18.12.04 1855.01
Reposted on: 18.12.11 1856.45
Methinks Billy Beane has lost his mind.
odessasteps
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#3 Posted on 18.12.04 1901.27
Reposted on: 18.12.11 1901.34

As I just said elsewhere, maybe Steve Schott is trying to beat Florida and Montreal to Las Vegas.
SC
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#4 Posted on 18.12.04 1920.37
Reposted on: 18.12.11 1922.54
Given Mulder's alarming nosedive that at least in large part helped to cost Oakland the division title last season, and the fact that they may not have been able to re-sign Mulder long term (or want to), they may have made a really good deal here if Haren pans out. His current deal expired after the 2005 season, and even hanging onto him for part of next year could've turned out to be a gamble. If he started slow, his value dipped further. They got something that may be of value, rather than something worse, or, possibly, nothing at all had they kept him through '05 and then couldn't afford to hang onto him.

This deal makes sense from Oakland's perspective, and from the Cardinals' perspective. It's surprising, but this is kind of what Beane does. More surprising is if Beane knew he had a deal on the table for Mulder and decided to move Hudson anyway, but this may have just come up and he thought it was too good to pass up. If Haren becomes a solid starter, they'll still have Zito, Rich Harden and Dan Haren next year. But right now I think they're more looking ahead than they are just next year. Harden, at 22, had a nice year in '04 and could emerge as a front-end starter very quickly.

They have to keep ushering in good players through the system and getting back what they can for the players they develop, because the odds of them being able to hang onto them are not in their favor.
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#5 Posted on 18.12.04 1929.51
Reposted on: 18.12.11 1929.56
We gave up HAREN!?

WE GAVE UP KIKO'S DELIVERY SERVICE?!

Aw, shit.

I guess this makes sense, but I really didn't want to see Danny go. Sup, I guess. Marquis, sure. But not Haren. After the rough start in Chicago during the first half, he really came around and gave the indication he was going to have a breakout 2005; he was the NL Champs' best pitcher in September.

Calero I'll miss, too. With Kliney gone thanks to arbitration as well as this deal, that bullpen's starting to get weaker. At least King's signed up.
redsoxnation
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#6 Posted on 18.12.04 2033.21
Reposted on: 18.12.11 2034.06
This one came out of nowhere. The Cardinals finally have an Ace. 6 months ago, who would have believed that Zito would be in Oakland and the rest of the Big 3 would be gone? And, let's see if "MoneyBall" works without the aces.
BigSteve
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#7 Posted on 18.12.04 2313.33
Reposted on: 18.12.11 2316.10
There's Moneyball, and that's all well and good, but there's also a little thing called having three aces on your staff, and when you trade two of them, you're not going to be good. Harden and Zito will keep them from totally falling off the face of the earth but it's bye bye A'd for the near future, unless Blanton and whomever else they have down on the farm are really good really quick.

And it warms my heart to see that the A's traded BOTH Hudson and Mulder and the wonderful O's GMs had enough restraint not to pick up a proven ace. Because, you know, picking up an ace certainly wasn't the game plan heading into the offseason. I hate to complain, but by that things are sounding like, we had a chance to get Hudson but wouldn't give up a package of Bedard, John Maine, and Hayden Penn. Why, I do not know, perhaps so as not to jeopardize the fifteen year plan to return to mediocrity.

I don't think that there's anything to be worried about with Mulder. He dropped of pretty badly at the end of last year, but before that he was always stunningly consistent, and a really effecient workhorse. I'm not especially farmiliar with the guys the Cards gave up, but I've never heard that Haren is a great prospect or anything (at least I've never heard that he'd be as good as Mulder is and could be). I'm jst bitter that theO's let another guy get by them.

And IIRC, Mulder's deal expires after 2006, not after this season. Hudson's deal is up after this year and Zito and Mulder are up for renewal in 2006.
Whitebacon
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#8 Posted on 18.12.04 2318.17
Reposted on: 18.12.11 2318.38
There's still time for the O's to trade for Zito. It looks like the Athletics are playing for 2006 at this point anyway.
PalpatineW
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#9 Posted on 18.12.04 2338.29
Reposted on: 18.12.11 2338.29
    Originally posted by odessasteps

    As I just said elsewhere, maybe Steve Schott is trying to beat Florida and Montreal to Las Vegas.


Not the first place I've heard that. He supposedly wanted to move the team to San Jose anyway, didn't he?

    Originally posted by BigSteve
    There's Moneyball, and that's all well and good, but there's also a little thing called having three aces on your staff, and when you trade two of them, you're not going to be good. Harden and Zito will keep them from totally falling off the face of the earth but it's bye bye A'd for the near future, unless Blanton and whomever else they have down on the farm are really good really quick.


They're certainly looking weaker next year, but they do have a hell of a young staff. I believe the rotation stands at Zito, Harden, Haren, Meyer and Blanton. And according to Gammo, Beane believes Harden will be a legit #1. The way Beane is gambling on all these young players, I have to believe he sees something in them, and, clearly, he knows something about the game of baseball. While that doesn't guarantee results, I'm not ready to write the A's off yet.

Also, if Beane determined he wasn't re-signing either of those guys, he certainly got more value this way then by simply letting them walk. And maybe Hudson's hip is still bothering him, we don't know.


(edited by PalpatineW on 19.12.04 0039)
BigVitoMark
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#10 Posted on 19.12.04 0151.29
Reposted on: 19.12.11 0154.02
The biggest gamble of all of this is whether Barry Zito wakes up from a terrible 2004. He was only a .500 pitcher and was either sink or swim every time he took the mound. He will need a big bounce back. If we get it, we could be OK...Zito, Harden, and one other guy working out gives us a top three, which is as good as anyone else in the West has. If Zito bottoms out under the pressure and expectations, it could be a very long season.
Big Bad
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#11 Posted on 19.12.04 0157.16
Reposted on: 19.12.11 0157.59
Zito's big issue is that his old pitching coach left Oakland before 2004. Maybe he's gotten over it, maybe not.

And geez, Billy, you couldn't have dealt one of your aces to your old protege JP in Toronto, eh? We could've offered you....uh...Eric Hinske?
SC
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#12 Posted on 19.12.04 0233.29
Reposted on: 19.12.11 0233.57
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    The biggest gamble of all of this is whether Barry Zito wakes up from a terrible 2004. He was only a .500 pitcher and was either sink or swim every time he took the mound.


If you space out Mark Mulder's total worthlessness down the stretch over the entire season, he and Barry Zito had pretty much the exact same year.


ERA WHIP W L IP K ERA+
Zito 4.48 1.39 11 11 213 163 105
Mulder 4.43 1.36 17 8 225 140 106


Harden, in fact, was better than either of them.


ERA WHIP W L IP K ERA+
Harden 3.99 1.33 11 7 189 167 117


So I think the A's should be okay if one of the other three (Haren, Meyer, Blanton) produce, Harden continues to improve, and Zito could even repeat his 2004 performance. Pitching-wise, anyway.
redsoxnation
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#13 Posted on 19.12.04 0726.18
Reposted on: 19.12.11 0726.31
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    And it warms my heart to see that the A's traded BOTH Hudson and Mulder and the wonderful O's GMs had enough restraint not to pick up a proven ace. Because, you know, picking up an ace certainly wasn't the game plan heading into the offseason. I hate to complain, but by that things are sounding like, we had a chance to get Hudson but wouldn't give up a package of Bedard, John Maine, and Hayden Penn. Why, I do not know, perhaps so as not to jeopardize the fifteen year plan to return to mediocrity.







With the offense they developed last season, wouldn't it have made some sort of sense this off-season for the Orioles to focus on acquiring front line pitching instead of trying to get more hitting? They aren't going to outslug Boston and New York, and even if they could, both have good enough pitching to shut down the Orioles enough for their hitting to take advantage of the O's pitching staff (outside of B.J. Ryan). Of course, even though Sosa is on the downward slope, he might be the exception to getting pitching over hitting, just on the principle that getting rid of an arsonist like Julio is an upgrade. Imagine Julio and Hawkins in the Cubs bullpen. Suicide rates among Cubbie fans would skyrocket.
BigSteve
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#14 Posted on 19.12.04 0923.31
Reposted on: 19.12.11 0923.31
Sory RSN. I should be more clear when I'm being sarcastic :). (If you wree disagreeing with me that is...)

I totally agree with what you say. I don't neccessarily want Sosa, but if the Cubs are willing to pay a significant portion of his salary, and we don't have to give up a ton to get him, then I wouldn't complain. But my concern is, if they get Sosa, they can't make a run at Magglio Ordonez, who seems to be the only guy left on the free agent market that's worth getting excited over. Obviously there's Beltran, but it seems he's all but certainly going to New York or Houston.

(edited by BigSteve on 19.12.04 1024)
Whitebacon
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#15 Posted on 19.12.04 1427.45
Reposted on: 19.12.11 1429.01
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    Imagine Julio and Hawkins in the Cubs bullpen. Suicide rates among Cubbie fans would skyrocket.


If Hawkins is setting up, there won't be any problems. He's proven a couple of times that he's a top notch set-up man. He has also proven that he's disastoruous as a closer. I see no reason why the Cubs would want to trade for Julio. I realize has had the "Closer" label for the last couple of years, but They already have a guy with a ten cent head and a million dollar arm that gives up too many gopher balls in Kyle Farnsworth. Just make him the closer and save the crappy trade. The Cubs also have little use for Hairston, unless they want to piss off T. Walker. I do not want Hairston as our regular left fielder. That would be an epic mistake.
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#16 Posted on 20.12.04 0648.38
Reposted on: 20.12.11 0653.08
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    With the offense they developed last season, wouldn't it have made some sort of sense this off-season for the Orioles to focus on acquiring front line pitching instead of trying to get more hitting?
Management wanted another RH bat to stick into the lineup. They also wanted somebody else who can play 1B since the plan is to keep Palmeiro around 50 games and to have Javy Lopez play 25-30 games there.
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    They aren't going to outslug Boston and New York, and even if they could, both have good enough pitching to shut down the Orioles enough for their hitting to take advantage of the O's pitching staff (outside of B.J. Ryan).
True, but the Orioles have been in on the action on Radke, Clement, Pavano, and Hudson. They didn't overpay for the free-agents and they refused to give up their prospects without a 72-hour window to negotiate with Hudson, when just about everybody knew Hudson wanted to be in Atlanta in 2006 anyway. We need the pitching, but I'm glad they haven't overpayed.

If we can get Sosa for Julio and Gibbons, like the rumor is, then I pull the trigger. Gibbons will be non-tendered tomorrow anyway.
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#17 Posted on 20.12.04 1001.30
Reposted on: 20.12.11 1007.18
    Originally posted by Grimis
    HIf we can get Sosa for Julio and Gibbons, like the rumor is, then I pull the trigger. Gibbons will be non-tendered tomorrow anyway.


This is the second place I've heard this rumor. I hope its true, just because Gibbons would be better return than Hairston.
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#18 Posted on 20.12.04 1012.14
Reposted on: 20.12.11 1016.44
    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    I hope its true, just because Gibbons would be better return than Hairston.
Either one has risks. Both have a propensity to injury. Gibbons got bulky and forgot how to hit last year. Hairston at least can play 2nd and the outfield.
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#19 Posted on 20.12.04 1320.03
Reposted on: 20.12.11 1321.47
"If you space out Mark Mulder's total worthlessness down the stretch over the entire season, he and Barry Zito had pretty much the exact same year."

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You belong here with talk like that.
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#20 Posted on 21.12.04 0727.07
Reposted on: 21.12.11 0729.01
    Originally posted by Abmulabmu
    "If you space out Mark Mulder's total worthlessness down the stretch over the entire season, he and Barry Zito had pretty much the exact same year."

    That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You belong here with talk like that.


Why is that, exactly? At least Scott brought some numbers to back up his statement. You bring nothing except a dogmatic response and a wise-ass comment? WTF? Please elaborate.
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