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The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Vince Can Kill The WWF...
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spf
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#41 Posted on 6.4.02 2307.56
Reposted on: 6.4.09 2323.33
I'll grant you about UT losing clean as a face, but perhaps part of the problem is that one can never picture ANY of the top faces losing clean ever. That was part of what made the HHH wins so effective over Foley is that he won clean. The WWF has gotten into the rut that Foley decried in his book, that the heels always have to be sneaky little cheats in order to win matches. Perhaps if there was a bit less predictability, and a bit less dependence on run-ins and other such things for every single top heel win, there might be a stronger heel faction for the faces to feud with.
KevinKellyisFNHardcore
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#42 Posted on 6.4.02 2335.30
Reposted on: 6.4.09 2351.19
In the WWF it all comes down to if its good for business or not. Making Jericho strong didn't matter all that much in the long run with Hogan-Rock as the top draw. Jericho was, as many have stated, a job boy for HHH. Oh well, but remember that the day will come when Jericho as a Rock/HHH/Austin level guy will come. It has to, because Austin's days as a draw are coming to a close (look at WrestleMania to now and his lack of direction), Taker isn't a draw anymore either. Angle and Jericho are the only heels in the WWF (not counting the nWo where none of them are championship level draws). Jericho's time will come and we should all just be patient little marks and enjoy the man for the performer that he is.
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#43 Posted on 7.4.02 0314.37
Reposted on: 7.4.09 0316.50
When I hear people say that someone's time will come to be the top man in a federation and that they just need to wait for so-and-so to retire, I can only think of Sting. In the late 80's early 90's it was "just wait, Flair is on his last legs, he'll be retiring soon." Flair left, and for most of the time Flair was gone they put Luger on top, and then Vader, with the idea being "real soon Sting will get his big triumphant babyface run on top", of course then Hogan came in, and it was "Hogan won't be here long, he'll retire soon, a year or 2, three at most." Of course by 1997 Hogan was still on top, and torpedoed Sting's best run ever by squashing him at Starrcade (funny how one match can kill a character). Sting may have wrestled his last match on the final Nitro against Ric "he'll be retiring soon" Flair. And I think on his wrestling tombstone should be the phrase "his time will come." and the dates 1987-2001.
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#44 Posted on 7.4.02 0334.23
Reposted on: 7.4.09 0337.51
Sting was a main eventer among main eventers. It is a shame how he never got to be the man. It is also a shame how we will never probably see him in the ring again. The Flair vs Sting matches were classics.
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#45 Posted on 7.4.02 0445.37
Reposted on: 7.4.09 0449.37
Let us not forget the completely ballsed-up match order at Mania. I'd wager that had Jericho/HHH gone on before Rock/Hogan, it would have been a Hell of a lot more heated. Such is life.

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#46 Posted on 7.4.02 1718.09
Reposted on: 7.4.09 1729.01
OSH: While I agree that the match order sucked all hope out of the WM main event being hot, the weeks leading up were pretty tepid too. The match might have had more heat had the buildup not presented the match as something of a fait accompli, and had the match itself not been something of a squash. Going in no one thought Jericho had a chance, and the match proved it, as HHH kicked his ass from pillar to post on one leg. Now if HHH had say the heat of Austin at his peak, or (God help us) Hogan right now, maybe the crowd would have been into him just whipping ass. But he didn't so no one much cared either way.
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#47 Posted on 7.4.02 1724.49
Reposted on: 7.4.09 1729.03

    Originally posted by spf2119
    When I hear people say that someone's time will come to be the top man in a federation and that they just need to wait for so-and-so to retire, I can only think of Sting. In the late 80's early 90's it was "just wait, Flair is on his last legs, he'll be retiring soon." Flair left, and for most of the time Flair was gone they put Luger on top, and then Vader, with the idea being "real soon Sting will get his big triumphant babyface run on top", of course then Hogan came in, and it was "Hogan won't be here long, he'll retire soon, a year or 2, three at most." Of course by 1997 Hogan was still on top, and torpedoed Sting's best run ever by squashing him at Starrcade (funny how one match can kill a character). Sting may have wrestled his last match on the final Nitro against Ric "he'll be retiring soon" Flair. And I think on his wrestling tombstone should be the phrase "his time will come." and the dates 1987-2001.


Yes, all of this is true about Sting, but remember this was not the better run, bottom-line oriented WWF. When McMahon gets a guy he no longer wants on top, what does he do? He turfs his ass. He doesn't placate people and keep them on top forever. He sucks whatever life the guy has, disposes of him, and moves on. Dead weight in the top card never lasts long. Go down the line with me, Sammartino, Backlund, Hogan, Hart, Michaels, they all got thrown out when their usefulness ran out. Hogan is only back for the nostalgia and the fresh matches and the dollar signs that accompany it. Believe me, when McMahon is ready for the Jerichos, RVDs, and Edges of the world they'll get their chance and Austin and Taker are going to be sitting on the sidelines whether they like it or not.
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#48 Posted on 7.4.02 1808.37
Reposted on: 7.4.09 1829.02
KK: I grant you that that Vince is more than happy to use up then discard of his talent. However, I think that the myth of Vince's business savvy and acumen has been built up by being compared to the epic business failures of WCW and ECW. Vince had one bold vision in the eighties which he aggressively chased, the national expansion. After that, any changes he made usually were when his business was in a corner, when someone showed him the template for how to change, and when he was the last to be in favor of moving. Hogan's last two title runs were absolute bombs. He fought kicking and screaming about going into the "attitude" era, and if Bret Hart hadn't been obstinate on the way out he might have never gone there. And don't kid yourself into thinking that if Vince could get the Ultimate Warrior back one more time he wouldn't do it

(edited by spf2119 on 7.4.02 1809)
Well Its The Big O
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#49 Posted on 7.4.02 2028.11
Reposted on: 7.4.09 2029.08
WCW was killed not only by bad booking and politics but by horrendous business. They lost money in I think every year of their existence. Vince MacMahon is the antithesis of whoever was in charge of WCW from a purely fiscal perspective.

Personally, I think that HBK, HHH turning NWO is a damn good story, but the problem with it is that it's not that realistic. The whole clique thing doesn't really have that huge power that they used to, nor are they really the coolest, freshest thing in the business anymore.
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#50 Posted on 7.4.02 2038.58
Reposted on: 7.4.09 2041.25

    Originally posted by Well Its The Big O
    WCW was killed not only by bad booking and politics but by horrendous business. They lost money in I think every year of their existence. Vince MacMahon is the antithesis of whoever was in charge of WCW from a purely fiscal perspective.

    Personally, I think that HBK, HHH turning NWO is a damn good story, but the problem with it is that it's not that realistic. The whole clique thing doesn't really have that huge power that they used to, nor are they really the coolest, freshest thing in the business anymore.


What, and the nWo are?
KevinKellyisFNHardcore
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#51 Posted on 7.4.02 2146.51
Reposted on: 7.4.09 2159.03

    Originally posted by spf2119
    KK: I grant you that that Vince is more than happy to use up then discard of his talent. However, I think that the myth of Vince's business savvy and acumen has been built up by being compared to the epic business failures of WCW and ECW. Vince had one bold vision in the eighties which he aggressively chased, the national expansion. After that, any changes he made usually were when his business was in a corner, when someone showed him the template for how to change, and when he was the last to be in favor of moving. Hogan's last two title runs were absolute bombs. He fought kicking and screaming about going into the "attitude" era, and if Bret Hart hadn't been obstinate on the way out he might have never gone there. And don't kid yourself into thinking that if Vince could get the Ultimate Warrior back one more time he wouldn't do it

    (edited by spf2119 on 7.4.02 1809)



Ahhh, see but I think you aren't seeing what I'm trying to say here. I never once said Vince was the super-genius of Sportz Entertainment. What I tried to convey is that Vince McMahon is as ruthless as they come and will dump anybody if they see that they have no drawing power anymore. He let Hogan go "because" of the last two title runs, he let Bret negotiate with WCW when he realized that Bret wanted to be the top guy forever and wasn't drawing his pant size. You are right on the money about Vince taking Warrior back though. Vince would do that "quicker than a hiccup" to coin a phrase, but he'd also can his ass just as fast. The point I'm making though is that if push came to shove and Vince HAD to make the move to dump an Austin or Undertaker and elevate a Jericho for business purposes he would. I never made any grand statements about Vince being brilliant, just cutthroat. No myth of saavy here. I appreciate the lively give and take though spf2119.
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#52 Posted on 7.4.02 2203.57
Reposted on: 7.4.09 2203.57
KK: I think we're both kind of running just across from each other's points. My point isn't disagreeing about Vince being willing to pull the trigger ONCE he makes a decision to do so. My point is more that over the years Vince has shown a tendency to not see any reason to shoot in the first place until long after every one else has spotted the target, watched it approach, possibly gotten killed by the target in question, and the target has begun to run away from him. But yeah, the second Vince decides to shoot, it's shot. I agree, if Vince feels there's nothing more to get from Austin or Rock, they're gone. I am not quite so sure about UT since I think Vince has a certain affection to him for never having jumped, possibly even the same for HHH. I just think Vince is usally the last one to get the hint that the stone is dry, no blood left in it.

So how long does this thread have to go before someone can call someone else a nazi and thus win the argument, and would "workrate nazi" count? ;)
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#53 Posted on 7.4.02 2212.09
Reposted on: 7.4.09 2215.36
I won, sorry, Fascist :P
Texas Kelly
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#54 Posted on 7.4.02 2235.46
Reposted on: 7.4.09 2243.43

    Originally posted by Qubber
    It's only when one guy squashes another that there's less drama and psychology to draw in the fans and make them care, and usually resulting career damage for the loser. Best not get into that now, though.

If anyone, and I mean anyone denies the fact that Jericho was a victim of this situation, in both the buildup and the match itself, may God have mercy on your soul.


    Originally posted by KevinKellyisFNHardcore
    Hunter just survived because he had a strong character to back himself up. Unfortunatly Jericho did not.

And why didn't Jericho have one?

1) Austin was not willing to job clean for him, and
2) Triple H and Stephanie teamed up to make him look like a total dimwad.

The only man I can recognize as having truly done something meaningful for Jericho (as a main-eventer) in his WWF career is the Rock. (Sorry, Benoit fans, but the thought meant nothing by the time Jericho was finally put over Benoit, MONTHS after it was feasible and would have done something meaningful.) I will recognize that the booking to the original HHH/Jericho feud in 2000 was superbly handled and made Jericho look like a star despite the fact he jobbed... but any goodwill I had from that was erased by the way this feud was handled.


    Originally posted by spf2119
    I don't think it's that Jericho doesn't have a strong heel character to fall bak on, more that in the months between RR and WM his heel character was neutered. If they had let him play the same character sans Steph he might have done much better going into WM. But instead of being the egomaniacal and yet pissed off champion, he became Steph's house boy. That character gave him nothing to fall back to. The Jericho who was pissed off at Rock giving him no respect could have been a viable main eventer post WM.

This is exactly why I bitched so much during Jericho's title run... there was an inherant bad odor about it the ENTIRE TIME, and almost NO ONE recognized it until it was too late.

What needs to happen is simply this... Resist any temptation to turn Trips. It's only going to slow the New Blood's (and particularly Jericho's) progress up the ladder, which (like two years ago when Triple H was pushed to the moon) is once again essential to the WWF's survival. Hogan's run is clearly one of nostalgia - if it becomes an extended thing, HHH's propensity to kill the ratings will only get worse. I don't even care if you give Hogan the strap... DO NOT TURN TRIPLE H. And give people like Jericho and Angle fair shakes.
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#55 Posted on 8.4.02 0124.31
Reposted on: 8.4.09 0125.14

    Originally posted by Texas Kelly

      Originally posted by Qubber
      It's only when one guy squashes another that there's less drama and psychology to draw in the fans and make them care, and usually resulting career damage for the loser. Best not get into that now, though.

    If anyone, and I mean anyone denies the fact that Jericho was a victim of this situation, in both the buildup and the match itself, may God have mercy on your soul.


      Originally posted by KevinKellyisFNHardcore
      Hunter just survived because he had a strong character to back himself up. Unfortunatly Jericho did not.

    And why didn't Jericho have one?

    1) Austin was not willing to job clean for him, and
    2) Triple H and Stephanie teamed up to make him look like a total dimwad.

    The only man I can recognize as having truly done something meaningful for Jericho (as a main-eventer) in his WWF career is the Rock. (Sorry, Benoit fans, but the thought meant nothing by the time Jericho was finally put over Benoit, MONTHS after it was feasible and would have done something meaningful.) I will recognize that the booking to the original HHH/Jericho feud in 2000 was superbly handled and made Jericho look like a star despite the fact he jobbed... but any goodwill I had from that was erased by the way this feud was handled.


      Originally posted by spf2119
      I don't think it's that Jericho doesn't have a strong heel character to fall bak on, more that in the months between RR and WM his heel character was neutered. If they had let him play the same character sans Steph he might have done much better going into WM. But instead of being the egomaniacal and yet pissed off champion, he became Steph's house boy. That character gave him nothing to fall back to. The Jericho who was pissed off at Rock giving him no respect could have been a viable main eventer post WM.

    This is exactly why I bitched so much during Jericho's title run... there was an inherant bad odor about it the ENTIRE TIME, and almost NO ONE recognized it until it was too late.

    What needs to happen is simply this... Resist any temptation to turn Trips. It's only going to slow the New Blood's (and particularly Jericho's) progress up the ladder, which (like two years ago when Triple H was pushed to the moon) is once again essential to the WWF's survival. Hogan's run is clearly one of nostalgia - if it becomes an extended thing, HHH's propensity to kill the ratings will only get worse. I don't even care if you give Hogan the strap... DO NOT TURN TRIPLE H. And give people like Jericho and Angle fair shakes.



You know Texas, you are exactly right on all acounts. Jericho was handled quite poorly. I don't think anyone is debating that.
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#56 Posted on 8.4.02 0138.21
Reposted on: 8.4.09 0144.21
So it's taken us 60 posts to all come to agreement that Jericho got hosed in his title reign? Man, we sure can take a long time to get to the point around here sometimes ;)
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#57 Posted on 8.4.02 1011.20
Reposted on: 8.4.09 1015.06
You know what's a good way to let him get started back on the way up?

Change his music to his Forceable Entry track.

I just bought the album yesterday; I'm listening to Sevendust right now, and it's just SCREAMING "bad guy". :)
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