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30.7.07 0412
The 7 - Pro Wrestling - Vince Can Kill The WWF...
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oldschoolhero
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#21 Posted on 5.4.02 1115.22
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1116.51
Dear God, tihs thread is full of revisionist history if ever I saw it. Here's a tip, kiddies: get your facts right before constructing an entire argument around them. Foley was NOT depushed (read his book, maroons), Chris Jericho was NOT "Main Eventer" when he feuded with Regal. Let's play YOUR game, shall we?

July 1999: Triple H beats The Rock in a Strap Match thanks to massively overbooked finish involving Billy Gunn and Chyna.

Let's stop there for a second. He won in a massively overbooked finish involving Bill Gunn.

August 1999: During the buildup for SummerSlam, Trips jobs to Chyna not once, but TWICE, and only regains his number one contendership thanks to a screwy finish involving heel referee Shane McMahon.

SummerSlam: Trips is made to look virtually ineffective after being pushed around by Jesse Ventura en route to not winning the WWF Title. The night after he pins Mankind for the belt, only after around three refs, Shane McMahon, Chyna and a sledgehammer get involved.

Let's stop again there. He beat Mankind only after around three refs, Shane McMahon, Chyna and a sledgehammer get involved. Okay, let's go on.

After two weeks of non-finish title matches, Trips loses the title...to Vince Freakin' McMahon.

Unforgiven 1999: Trips pins the Rock in a six-pack challenge match thanks to a timely chairshot from the Bulldog. NOT clean.

No Mercy: Trips pins Austin after Rocky accidentally nails Austin with a sledge in the gut. Trips doesn't even get to hit his finishing maneouvre on Steve-O.

Survivor Series: Trips drops the belt to The Big Show. Yes, the Big Show.

Armageddon: Trips beats Vince in a HALF-HOUR hardcore match, only with help from Stephanie McMahon. Dear God.

And there you have, Trips' first few months a champ encapsulated. I think I've made my point. I can go through how shitty Rock's first few months were, but that'd just be overkill.
spf
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#22 Posted on 5.4.02 1123.16
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1124.18
OSH: And not only did the powers that be decide to keep HHH on top for another year after that despite the fact he was a heatless wonder of suck, but they decided to push him even harder by giving him the owner's daughter as his wife, and near-total control of the WWF in the storylines through that machination, as well as 2 months later giving him the career of Mick Foley to claim as his. That would be like if the WWF had let Jericho retain at WM and then the next night had him steal Linda from under Vince's nose, and then 2 months later pin Hogan cleanly after beating him from pillar to post in Hogan's retirement match. Or to look at it the other way, it'd be like if HHH lost at RR 2000, and then went on to feud with Val Venis over who had the biggest dick in the WWF.

(edited by spf2119 on 5.4.02 1124)
oldschoolhero
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#23 Posted on 5.4.02 1149.27
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1150.16
Which many, many people would have had him do, looking at the negative HHH sentiment at the time. And yet look what became of him. Again, you're using literal comparisons and rewriting history for your own argument. Yes, I did it, but to point out how stupid doing that sort of thing is. Fact is, Trips was supremely over (thanks to the selflessness of Foley) going into WM2000, and he remained over throughout the year. Why the Hell shouldn't he have remained on top? And Jee-ZUS, talk about MORE revisionist history. Have you even seen the Foley/HHH HIAC match?

Point is, sunshine, that Jericho has been given a massive leg-up compared to other people. Granted, Steph's ridiculous booking wrecked the Mania main event, but it wrecked it for HHH as well as Jericho. There comes a time when you gotta stop blaming the WWF and look at the wrestler. Just like last June, Jericho is not clicking as a main eventer. Angle clicked during his shitty first run, which is why he still is in that upper echelon. Jericho did not. But he's got a Hell of a lot to build on, and given time he will. To blindly reel off the history of his WWF career and then blame his shortcomings on HHH is ridiculous.

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#24 Posted on 5.4.02 1151.18
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1153.13
If you read Foley's second book, everything that happened during the last six months of his career makes a bunch more sense.

The WWF brought back Foley early that summer due to Austin's injuries.

They started de-pushing Foley because Foley wasn't having great matches (by Foley's own admission) and because he was planning to retire that fall.

They put off the retirement once it looked like Austin would be forced to retire due to his neck injury.

They put off the retirement AGAIN because Big Show wasn't a draw as top babyface, and Hunter and Mick went to Vince with their plan to use Mick to help get Hunter over.

Hunter beat Mick at Rumble, because if Mick had won, there would have been no reason for Mick to put his career on the line to get a rematch.

Hunter beat Mick at No Way Out so Rock would have a motive (to avenge Mick) and because Mick was retiring.

Mick came back to wrestle at Mania because Vince saw the buyrates and ratings and was convinced it would make him a $hitpile of money. And he thought he was doing Mick a favor by giving him one last huge payday.

So THAT should set the Foley story straight. Talk amongst yourselves.
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#25 Posted on 5.4.02 1207.25
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1210.31
OSH: You just proved the point of everyone who says HHH got things one way, while Jericho got dicked over the other. Why did HHH have big heat going into WM? Because a highly credible main eventer, considered one of the toughest men in wrestling history, gave him 2 clean jobs, both in matches considered to be his specialties. Who gave Jericho a clean job during his run? I think Maven did, but that's about it. He needed help to beat Edge. He needed help to beat Rikishi. This hurts not only him, but HHH and the WWF as a whole. Imagine if Jericho had taken down Rock at Royal Rumble clean, and then Austin at NWO clean. Then the HHH title win would have meant something as he would have had to overcome the guy who has beaten all the top guys cleanly over the last few months. Instead it was a foregone conclusion which really no one seemed all that excited about. The point is that no wrestler can overcome truly being made to look like a fool. Yes Rock jobs a lot. But Rock also gets enough mic time to keep him over, even as a heel. During the Jericho title reign, how many times did he get to go off on his own, instead of having to talk with or to Stephanie? I recall one interview that was all Jericho, and it was a killer (the "don't overlook me Rock" interview). Jericho's title reign never caught fire because the WWF doused it in water and asbestos as soon as it started. So no, I don't blame his shortcomings ON HHH. I just use him as comparison for how the WWF can choose to get someone over, or choose to let them founder and flop.
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#26 Posted on 5.4.02 1217.09
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1217.11
Trips got the boost form Foley thanks to being in the right place at the right time, no more, no less. He got two clean wins over possibly the most unselfish man in the biz, and he retired the man. All due to circumstance, as he was in the position of being the number one heel that the fed was trying to build up. Did anyone else besides HHH get that boost? No, and that's because it's the exception, not the rule.

Another point is that Jericho is NOT HHH, in terms of character. He is not a big powerhouse badass, who gets heel heat by beating good guys half to death and stooping to despicable lows to win matches. Jericho has always been a sneaky, conniving heel who has to CHEAT TO WIN, the basic staple of the heel. His win over Rocky at the Rumble was GLORIOUS in it's heelishness, yet everyone conveniently ignores that to focus on the fact that it wasn't clean.

And if HHH wasn't sabotaging Jericho, who is? Why would the WWF do it?
Scar
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#27 Posted on 5.4.02 1219.15
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1221.40
There was nobody in the position to job to Jericho twice with out it hurting them. Foley could afford to do it because he was on his way out. At the time they desperatley needed a new main-eventer so HHH, being next in line, got a big push. Now with Rock, HHH, Austin, Hogan, and even Taker as big time viable main-eventers there is not much room for Jericho up there without de-pushing somebody.
Taker, Austin, and Hogan only have so much time left, and Jericho will still be around and will get his spot.
I don't get it anyways if Jericho was still main-eventing you all would be bitching that his matches sucked.
DrOp
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#28 Posted on 5.4.02 1244.49
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1253.51
This discussion you guys ar ehaving is great.

I think OSH hits the nail on the head with his last post. You guys are comparing apples to oranges

HHH was a babyface killer; Jericho was a sneaky, vulnerable heel champion.


Two different characters, each with its own set of booking demands. Jericho could not be booked as whipping every ME face's ass as that would not have been with the spirit of his character. I think that he could have used a few more clean wins over mid-card talent, but hindsight is always 20-20.
spf
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#29 Posted on 5.4.02 1249.17
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1259.02
First OSH: I'm not saying to have Jericho morph into HHH, sledgehammer and all. However, the only way a sneaky heel works is if there is a sense that this person could win on their own but chooses not to. Dusty Rhodes almost killed the NWA off by forgetting that and NEVER letting Flair win a match clean for seemingly years. He was at his peak of drawing when the sense was that he could win clean if he chose to, but instead used shortcuts which made it almost impossible to beat him. Sadly, the days of being able to get Honky Tonk Man heat for never being a clean winner have passed us by, and likely only existed for that one character anyhow. And as for who is sabatoging Jericho and why, the answer is the writers/bookers who have shown a severe case of rectal-cranial inversion for quite a while now, and Vince because he never wanted Jericho to be anything more than a placeholder champion until his son-in-law's quad was fully healed, so the squash could commence without touching any of the "big" stars.

Scar: First off, Taker is so far from a viable main eventer at this point it's scary. I refer you to the 2 months after WM 17, and the sound of crickets that met Taker's last top card run. Secondly, you say "There was nobody in the position to job to Jericho twice with out it hurting them." My response would be simply that I guess it's ok though to job Jericho repeatedly to everyone since it doesn't matter if he's hurt or not. Third, you say "Taker, Austin, and Hogan only have so much time left, and Jericho will still be around and will get his spot." The only problem with this is that this has been said about Taker for a few years now, and Hogan for about a decade now. These guys aren't going anywhere until the very last drop of blood is squeezed out of the wrestling stone for them. I don't begrudge them that one bit, it's a job, and cash is king. But that doesn't mean it's a wise move to simply keep rotating those top names around on top until they choose to work no more. Oh, and I never bitched that Jericho's matches sucked, so try not to judge the whole group of Jericho fans without at least asking our opinion first.
Texas Kelly
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#30 Posted on 5.4.02 1313.41
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1318.19

    Originally posted by Triple Preperation H
    Can you tell me what is so gosh-awful about a man getting over for doing a "relatively clean job?" With the lack of clean finishes in wrestling these days, I think someone of a high stature who jobs cleanly should be given a stinking gold plated car.

If we were talking about any other wrestler, I would agree with you, but we are talking here about Hulk Hogan, a man who owes his employer and his colleagues about a million clean jobs with absolutely nothing earned from them for all the shit he's pulled in the past decade & a half.


    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    And Texas, you're 100% right about the Stehpanie involvement in the Mania main event. If you notice, Trips was also booked to look like a complete maroon during the buildup. Does the line "Don't mess with my dog" ring any bells?

The difference, OSH, is simply that Triple H got rewarded for putting up with it while more dirt got shoveled on Jericho's grave. Also, Triple H got to play a primary role in the nonsense at the very least... Jericho, on the other hand, was forced into the background, and he was the CHAMPION for Christ's sake.


    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    Jericho will never be a bigger heel star than HHH because the fans haven't bought into his character (and weren't pre-Steph, so much so that people were BEGGING the WWF to hook him up with Stephanie).

That's another thing that Steph and the writers screwed up... the pregnancy angle. Look, if people were so concerned about Jericho building up heat with Stephanie, what's the better way to do it? Just have Stephanie come out and blab about offering her services (as the Fed chose to do), or do a mirror of the wedding angle, in which Steph gets pregnant via Jericho and ends up choosing baby's father over marital loyalty (so that Jericho comes off a bigger heel?). My God, this isn't rocket science!


    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    Unfortunately, this type of Champion is really just a place holder for the next face to come along (the notable exceptions being: Michaels, Flair, and Hart).

Three men who got over and stayed over as main eventers because their respective companies righteously pushed them with clean, believeable wins. (Something that Jericho did not get.) I've always thought Jericho was in the same mold... if the Fed had a freakin' brain and tried it, they might see what they're missing!


    Originally posted by spf2119
    Why did HHH have big heat going into WM? Because a highly credible main eventer, considered one of the toughest men in wrestling history, gave him 2 clean jobs, both in matches considered to be his specialties. Who gave Jericho a clean job during his run? I think Maven did, but that's about it. He needed help to beat Edge. He needed help to beat Rikishi. This hurts not only him, but HHH and the WWF as a whole. Imagine if Jericho had taken down Rock at Royal Rumble clean, and then Austin at NWO clean. Then the HHH title win would have meant something as he would have had to overcome the guy who has beaten all the top guys cleanly over the last few months. Instead it was a foregone conclusion which really no one seemed all that excited about. The point is that no wrestler can overcome truly being made to look like a fool.

I couldn't have said it better myself... spot on, my friend.
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#31 Posted on 5.4.02 1416.56
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1429.01

    Originally posted by mskj
    So Foley was depushed by being put in two main event ppv matches against HHH? I don't think so. He was getting a huge push leading up to his retirement match. Which he lost because he was retiring.


You aren't taking into effect the drama/writing with the buildup for both matches. At least, the No Mercy and WM2K matches.

The Foley/HHH angle dates back to the night after SummerSlam '99, Foley's last really great achievement, where HHH broke Ross' arm to goad Foley into a title match, where he eventually beat Foley. Since then, HHH was allowed to beat Foley every single time they were in the ring.

As Foley was built up as such a loser with his credibility being destroyed match-by-match, the WWF started talking about Foley's retirement and how his dream was to be in the WWF Title match at WrestleMania. The implication was that Foley would win the title one last time and retire. In fact, they even went so far as to bring Foley back a month after it looked like all hope was lost and that Foley would never compete again.

Of course, they brought him back. Usually, in good writing, when you bring back the protagnoist after it looks like all hope is lost, it's usually best to deliver the payoff, but instead it was used to give HHH another meaningless win over Foley and feed the monster. It was very anticlimactic and worthless.

Really, HHH hasn't given anything back to Foley and that is where a lot of the resentment lies.
oldschoolhero
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#32 Posted on 5.4.02 1523.24
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1526.52
Resentment from whom, exactly? Foley sure didn't hold it against him. From the fans? Big f'n deal. Foley got to be in the Mania title match, which is what he wanted. Trips got that one last pin on him, getting him over. And some more buyrates were probably garnered by the addition of Foley to the line-up. So what the Hell is the problem here?

Geez, I can't believe this even being debated. What was probably the best series of matches in 2000 is now being questioned because of shadowy political rumours about one of the participants?
spf
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#33 Posted on 5.4.02 1601.02
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1606.19
OSH: I don't know if you're referring to me or others, but personally I HAVE NO PROBLEM with what HHH did with Foley. They were great matches and they helped to get him over. What I am pissy about is that while one guy gets the Jesus treatment, another guy who has just as much potential to get over the hump and become a major player becomes a job boy for the same guy who got such a push. And yes, I DO think the fact that HHH is sleeping with the head writer and is practically a son-in-law from all accounts to the owner of the WWF DOES cloud their judgment somewhat and make them more susceptible to less than optimal decisions. Listening to your heart over your head is not a very hard thing to imagine a businessperson doing.
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#34 Posted on 5.4.02 1632.37
Reposted on: 5.4.09 1659.01
I think that Mick Foley gained a ton of respect on his way out. He was retiring. He did what everyone says Hogan oughta do : He passed the torch. He did it in awesome fashion, with 2 great PPV matches back to back. His interviews in those 2 months were intense. His transformation from kindly Mankind to Cactus Jack was amazing. I don't know anyone who thinks less of Mick Foley for his 2 jobs to HHH. Sure, maybe he shouldn't have popped back up a month after his retirement for Wrestlemania, but how can you begrudge a guy like Mick Foley a chance to headline the biggest show of them all. Especially as "Mick Foley", not Dude Love, Catus Jack, or Mankind. Maybe he didn't have enough gas left in the tank to make the flying elbow off the apron, but I still like the fact that a guy like Mick Foley could go out at Wrestlemania.

Sorry for the rant....I know it might be a little off topic
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#35 Posted on 6.4.02 0727.00
Reposted on: 6.4.09 0729.03
Just as a side bar: Foley looked amazing in both of his 2000 PPV matches against HHH, and, in the same vein as Hogan's loss to the Rock, got a lot out of it. The main thing was not that he jobbed, but that HHH had to kill him to get those wins. Lets also consider the content of the actual matches rather than only the result: HHH had to use all available foreign objects, several pedigrees and (in the Cell match) an immense fall from the top of a cage to finally nail Foley. Foley was a superman in those matches and he was kicking out of all sorts of stuff. Yes he lost, but c'mon, he looked awesome. IMO, those matches did everything for Foley and cemented the "Harcdore Legend" status even further. A nice way to bow out, I think.

You can look good in losing, it's all in the presentation. It's only when one guy squashes another that there's less drama and psychology to draw in the fans and make them care, and usually resulting career damage for the loser. Best not get into that now, though.
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#36 Posted on 6.4.02 1931.45
Reposted on: 6.4.09 1940.38

    Originally posted by spf2119
    OSH: I don't know if you're referring to me or others, but personally I HAVE NO PROBLEM with what HHH did with Foley. They were great matches and they helped to get him over. What I am pissy about is that while one guy gets the Jesus treatment, another guy who has just as much potential to get over the hump and become a major player becomes a job boy for the same guy who got such a push. And yes, I DO think the fact that HHH is sleeping with the head writer and is practically a son-in-law from all accounts to the owner of the WWF DOES cloud their judgment somewhat and make them more susceptible to less than optimal decisions. Listening to your heart over your head is not a very hard thing to imagine a businessperson doing.


I think the major thing you are missing here is that there is no one out there in the top card who wants to or is ready to give up their spot. Undertaker, deluded fellow that he probably is, still thinks he's able to draw. He hasn't drawn money since summer of '99, but he still WANTS to be in the game, wants being the pivotal word. Foley was ready, willing, and more than able to job out to HHH. He knew he was done and wanted to give the rub to the new top heel. Maybe if there was someone who would do that for Y2J, it would happen, but there isn't. Too bad for him right now, but the guy has so many years left to be on top. Until then, he has plenty of time to hone a better heel character outside of the harsh spotlight of the top card where he is bound to face major scrutiny.

P.S. Stephanie wasn't booking WrestleMania 2000 either, maybe that's why HHH got over so well. Then again, the McMahon family was just as omnipresent in that match as they were in the WM X8 match. Hunter just survived because he had a strong character to back himself up. Unfortunatly Jericho did not. By the way, I'm a huge Jericho fan, it just so happens that I am also a huge fan of being realistic.
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#37 Posted on 6.4.02 2000.31
Reposted on: 6.4.09 2029.01
KK: I don't think it's that Jericho doesn't have a strong heel character to fall bak on, more that in the months between RR and WM his heel character was neutered. If they had let him play the same character sans Steph he might have done much better going into WM. But instead of being the egomaniacal and yet pissed off champion, he became Steph's house boy. That character gave him nothing to fall back to. The Jericho who was pissed off at Rock giving him no respect could have been a viable main eventer post WM.
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#38 Posted on 6.4.02 2047.19
Reposted on: 6.4.09 2059.04
You also have to take into account Mick Foley's history of being every other main eventer's bitch. I love Foley as much as the next guy, but the truth is, he was a jobber who happened to win the big belt for three very short reigns. For Foley to job twice (three times counting Wrestlemania) clean to Triple H on his way out took no stretch of disbelief because Foley had lost just about every other single main event feud he had been in.

For the Undertaker to spend 11 years kicking ass, then job clean a couple of times to close his career would not make sense. Same for Hogan and Austin (when he reaches the point the first two are at). The Rock is said to be a main event jobber, but he doesn't job clean and lose feuds like Foley did.

I'd say right now, the only main eventer in a position to do what Foley did is Kurt Angle, and he is a long way away from that. I think the Foley/Triple H situation was unique, and for it to happen again, it would have to be a heel retiring a face, so unless something changes big time with Angle over the rest of his career, he may not even be able to do it.
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#39 Posted on 6.4.02 2123.41
Reposted on: 6.4.09 2129.04
BucsFan: Undertaker has jobbed clean at many points in his career. In fact, I think it's one of those things where you can define a main eventer over the last 10 years by whether or not you could envision the WWF letting that person go over UT clean. I could see Rock going clean over Taker. Austin has gone clean over him many times. I could see them putting HHH over Taker clean. Hart and Michaels I could have seen going over him clean during their time. During the peak of Angle's face run I could have seen him going over Taker clean. So to say that it's unrealistic for Taker to do a clean job to someone seems a bit inaccurate to me. They admittedly are doled out quite carefully, as they are for all the main event top guys, but they are done, and they can be quite important in establishing credibility for someone.
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#40 Posted on 6.4.02 2209.00
Reposted on: 6.4.09 2224.34
Although I didn't say it above, when I said "job clean," I actually meant "get your ass kicked." If Triple H had simply gotten beat up by Foley only to pull of the victory, even if cleanly, it wouldn't have had nearly the same impact. Triple H kicked the living shit out of Cactus Jack and was damn proud of it. Can you see this happening to the Undertaker? Also, those main event guys don't exactly need the benefits that come with retiring a legendary wrestler.

And I don't see Undertaker losing clean as a face. maybe you could invision it, but how often has it actually happened? Michaels didn't do it (Badd Blood 1997, Kane helped him win; I can't remember how Michaels won the Rumble 1998 casket match, but I'm sure it was screwy). Bret Hart didn't do it I don't think (He beat him at Summerslam 1997, but with help from Guest Ref Shawn Michaels; Maybe the 1996 Royal Rumble match between the two was clean, I don't know). The Rock didn't (Flair helped him at No Way Out this year). Steve Austin has. Hulk Hogan didn't even pin the man clean.
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