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The 7 - Basketball - It's breakin' loose in Tulsa!!....I mean, Detroit!
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LionJeetSingh
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#81 Posted on 21.11.04 2101.00
Reposted on: 21.11.11 2101.05
The argument stating Artest has the right to defend himself holds no weight. After he was SHOVED by Wallace, Artest ran like a bitch before laying down on the announce table.

Then when a fan throws A CUP at him, he loses his mind.

To me being shoved is much worse than having a cup thrown your way. Bottom line, it is a lot easier to attack a small skinny fan than it is to step up to Ben Wallace.

(edited by LionJeetSingh on 21.11.04 1912)
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#82 Posted on 21.11.04 2104.40
Reposted on: 21.11.11 2104.47
I thought Artest going to the scorers table showed an unusual amount of restraint for him. Then, some idiot throws something at him, and pushes him over the edge.
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#83 Posted on 21.11.04 2123.36
Reposted on: 21.11.11 2123.54
(deleted by ges7184 on 21.11.04 2124)
evilwaldo
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#84 Posted on 21.11.04 2254.25
Reposted on: 21.11.11 2254.46
    Originally posted by It's False
    ESPN's Stephen A. Smith makes a good point.

    (edited by It's False on 21.11.04 1841)


I doubt he ever made a good point.

My only problem with the suspensions is that Artest should be forced to take anger management classes and have reports on his progress filed with David Stern. I highly doubt that his behavior changes when he returns.

Has anyone heard any comments from Larry Bird?
Stefonics
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#85 Posted on 21.11.04 2259.59
Reposted on: 21.11.11 2300.35
    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    I thought Artest going to the scorers table showed an unusual amount of restraint for him. Then, some idiot throws something at him, and pushes him over the edge.

Exactly. I'm not sure if I've seen the same footage as brick or LionJeetSingh, but it didn't look like Artest "ran like a bitch" from Wallace. And after he got hit with the cup of beer, he sure as hell didn't "pick the smallest guy out of the crowd to assault". He ran into the general direction of where the cup was thrown. It's not as if Artest stood up, glanced around the arena and found some midget to beat on. Sure, it was a stupid move on his part. But I'm not so sure that it's totally beyond comprehension to react that way.

As for all of the analogies involving cups of beer hitting people in bars, when one goes to a bar there is an accepted risk that something like that might happen to you. As a professional athlete, the thought of being hit with garbage of any sort shouldn't have to be a consideration. But some "fans" think it's really cool to become part of the show. And they use the logic of "well, my ticket helps pay for his salary." That's partially true. But it doesn't give me the right to throw shit at a cop just because I pay part of his salary.

(edited by Kidbrooklyn on 22.11.04 0001)
Jackson
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#86 Posted on 22.11.04 0045.50
Reposted on: 22.11.11 0046.06
Artest acted like an ass. Artest has a history of acting like an ass. People don't like asses. Asses shouldn't lie on front row tables if they don't want some beer thrown on them.

That's like T.O. catching a TD in Green Bay, doing the Lambeu Leap and just lying on the wall for a while.
CRZ
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#87 Posted on 22.11.04 0510.02
Reposted on: 22.11.11 0511.31
Lang Whitaker doesn't let me down:

Animated GIF of O'Neal: http://slamonline.com/links/11222004/
Words (from Saturday): http://slamonline.com/links/11152004/

(Lang Whitaker is also responsible for the previously widely-distributed animated GIFs of Doug Christie and Anthony Peeler, amongst many other memorable punches)
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#88 Posted on 22.11.04 0715.39
Reposted on: 22.11.11 0716.18
    Originally posted by Jackson
    Artest acted like an ass. Artest has a history of acting like an ass. People don't like asses. Asses shouldn't lie on front row tables if they don't want some beer thrown on them.

    That's like T.O. catching a TD in Green Bay, doing the Lambeu Leap and just lying on the wall for a while.


I agree. I saw the entire incident when they replayed it on ESPN, and Artest just kept lying on the announce table. He would occasionally bob his head up, and then lie back down. He had this smirk on that told me he was just trying to provoke the Pistons. He brought some of it on himself.

That being said, ESPN today mentioned that Artest stands to lose MILLIONS of dollars. It almost makes me feel bad for him and his 72 game suspension. ALMOST is the key word in that last sentence.
redsoxnation
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#89 Posted on 22.11.04 0738.19
Reposted on: 22.11.11 0738.19
    Originally posted by Torchslasher
    That being said, ESPN today mentioned that Artest stands to lose MILLIONS of dollars. It almost makes me feel bad for him and his 72 game suspension. ALMOST is the key word in that last sentence.







But, he will be able to make up some of that money by working extra shifts at Circuit City without having those annoying basketball games mess up his schedule.
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#90 Posted on 22.11.04 0904.32
Reposted on: 22.11.11 0905.01
FOr everybody jumping on the "Ben Wallace deserves more" bandwagon, explain to me how pushing Artest and wanting to kick his ass is as bad as what any of the Pacers players did. He pushed a guy, who had clobbered him while he was trying to go to the hoop. Definately an intentional foul, definately WAY to rough of a call when his team is UP by 15 with less than a minute to play. If you are going to foul him, grab his arm. Hacking at his head isnt called for in the least. Was Wallace wrong to push Artest and challenge him? Sure. Does that excuse the Artest attempted beheading? Nope not in the least.

And, Flea, how is David Stern supposed to defend anything any of the susupended players did? I seriously dont get it. They didnt handle themselves as professionals should, or as normal citizens should.

Stephen Jackson got off light, and so did Oneal, considering they are the only ones who landed solid punches.

What amazes me is that anybody can honestly say that Artest was defending himself against some kind of assault by running into the crowd, while moments before, he was backing down from somebody who is more similar to his physical makeup, who he had some kind of actual beef with.

Let him and his "I'm a grown man, if I wanna take a month off, I should be able to" ass have a nice off season.
How long before the DirecTV ads with him get yanked?
Roy.
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#91 Posted on 22.11.04 0938.39
Reposted on: 22.11.11 0938.47
A few radio outlets (ESPN radio among them) are saying that several of the fans battling the Pacers players were actually credential holding friends of Detroit players. Supposedly, the big(est) guy pounding on Jackson was actually Ben Wallace's brother.

I don't know if it's true, but shouldn't that make everybody rethink who gets floor passes (and how many are given out)?
A Fan
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#92 Posted on 22.11.04 1223.24
Reposted on: 22.11.11 1225.04
I think the league went to easy on the Pacers. Artest, I'm still shocked is employeed by Larry Bird, got what he deserved. As for Jackson, he did get off light, he was just throwing punches left and right. I don't feel for O'Neil since when you watch the tape, the guy he hit had his hands down and posed no threat. I was surprised Wallace got 6 games since all he did was just push Arnest. I guess they had to give him something.

I found it unbelievable that people would defend the players. I am the first one to admitt the fan who threw the cup should get full charges on him, but how stupid is it to go into an oppossing teams' fans' section? On top of that assualt the wrong person and then have your teams jump in an continue the assualt on fans. Then, when fans come down to the court for whatever reason, get a few pop shots on them. These players should be kicked out of the league, but the player's association will appeal even though they have no legal leg to stand on and get the suspensions reduced to half the time.

Stern did the right thing which is finally sending the message that the NBA is not a pick-up game in the ghetto. There is a higher standard here and if you can't play by it then accept the punishment or get out. I am more than shocked that Larry Bird still has these guys on the payroll, I say fire them, there has to be a public relations clause in there. If some other team wants the headaches and bad PR, so be it.
jfkfc
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#93 Posted on 22.11.04 1319.48
Reposted on: 22.11.11 1321.07
    Originally posted by Roy.
    I don't know if it's true, but shouldn't that make everybody rethink who gets floor passes (and how many are given out)?
It might make people rethink how for-shit security is at NBA games. How was there not a swarm of cops/security totally blanketing the whole area around the locker room entrance tunnel? A fan had already demonstrated their willingness to chuck a friggin chair into a crowd, no one thought, "Wow, what if fans start dumping chairs on the heads of the players and other personnel while they are right there exiting the arena?" Stupid. I would think that anytime Ron Artest and Rasheed Wallace are in the same vicinity, not to mention two heated rivals (Pacers/Pistons), there would be at least SOME additional security. Didn't we see riot police along the boundaries of the field at Yankee Stadium last month?

(soothing self at LCS memory...grassy meadow....grassy meadow...talk amongst yourselves)

Fans and players involved alike, unfathomable. If a client walked into my office and threw a cup of some sort of beverage on me, what are my two basic options?

1. I could attack him. People would be able to relate with the insult of such a thing happening to me, surely. They might say, "wow, if someone just came up and threw a drink on me..." and the like. People relating to my feelings aside, I wouldn't have carte blanche to attack said client. I am pretty sure there is no law justifying retaliation. Now, if "beverage-throwing" is indeed considered an assault, and the client continued throwing beverages on me, surely I would be able to use necessary force to stop him. It was explained to me that necessary force, from a legal standpoint, is only necessary if the attack will not stop without your forcing it to stop. Double-fisting aside (since its too expensive at NBA games, I mean, what is that, $15-20 to double fist?), a guy will probably only have one cup of beverage on him, so a prolonged attack of this sort is probably not happening.

2. I could not attack him. I could stand up from my desk and summon security. Would I feel like a pussy? I probably would feel like a BIG pussy, especially if he was smaller than me. I would want to beat the shit out of that punk-ass client REAL bad, as would most. Restraint would be shown on my part and I would look pretty good professionally, with my company and with the other clients (at least SOME of which would hopefully be shocked at their beverage-throwing co-worker). I would be pretty sure that while the client might not be arrested for battery or assault, he surely wouldn't be coming to visit my company any more, and he would probably also lose his job.

In my opinion, Artest got what he deserved, and will probably get more of what he deserves regarding possible lawsuits and any charges of assault. Also in my opinion, Jackson should have gotten a season pass also, because although he wasn't the first, he did the same thing. Ben Wallace, although it seemed like a HUGE AND INSANE overreaction, should probably only wind up with five or less games. The throat shove was severe, but it wasn't a punch, and you can't lump it in with the events that followed. A player shoving another player isn't supposed to incite a melee in the stands...

In any case, security will rightfully be beefed up around the NBA for the foreseeable future, as it should be...and should have been beforehand. Unfortunately, it usually takes something like this to happen to get things where they need to be, so it seems, anyway.
BigSteve
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#94 Posted on 22.11.04 1740.22
Reposted on: 22.11.11 1740.27
I actually agreed with what Stephen A. said on Sportscenter last night about the suspensions, which kinda scared me.

As for Artest, yes he should be facing assault charges. I don't know about the criminal statute where you live Ryder, but attacking another person, unprovoked, that's assault and should be treated as such.
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#95 Posted on 22.11.04 2056.27
Reposted on: 22.11.11 2057.33
    Originally posted by jfkfc
    Now, if "beverage-throwing" is indeed considered an assault, and the client continued throwing beverages on me, surely I would be able to use necessary force to stop him. It was explained to me that necessary force, from a legal standpoint, is only necessary if the attack will not stop without your forcing it to stop. Double-fisting aside (since its too expensive at NBA games, I mean, what is that, $15-20 to double fist?), a guy will probably only have one cup of beverage on him, so a prolonged attack of this sort is probably not happening.

This is EXACTLY the way the law looks at it, and I was actually talking to some people about this earlier today (we law school types always try to pigeonhole real life news into what we've learned in class.. we're dorks like that). The thing you didn't consider, though, is what if Artest didn't do anything to "defend" himself? Sure the original drink thrower probably wouldn't have another drink to throw, but what about the other fans around? It's possible that they'd think, "Hey, he didn't do anything. We should do the same thing. Free reign!"

I'm not saying that's necessarily likely, but that's one angle that should be looked at. If it's determined that that's a reasonable possibility, then Artest's actions are that much closer to meeting the legal definition of self-defense.

- StingArmy
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#96 Posted on 23.11.04 0051.20
Reposted on: 23.11.11 0054.24
Eh, I don't think that holds up in court.

"So Mr. Artest... if someone shot you... you would feel justified in pulling out a gun and shooting six people in the general area of the shooter. And then you would say that shooting those bystanders was in 'Self-Defence'?"

But I could be wrong.

-Jag
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#97 Posted on 23.11.04 0143.53
Reposted on: 23.11.11 0143.53
    Originally posted by StingArmy
    This is EXACTLY the way the law looks at it, and I was actually talking to some people about this earlier today (we law school types always try to pigeonhole real life news into what we've learned in class.. we're dorks like that). The thing you didn't consider, though, is what if Artest didn't do anything to "defend" himself? Sure the original drink thrower probably wouldn't have another drink to throw, but what about the other fans around? It's possible that they'd think, "Hey, he didn't do anything. We should do the same thing. Free reign!"


So EVERYONE is going to throw a drink simply because ONE person does it? And Artest is justfied for going into the stands and beating people up?

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. The only thing Artest was justified in doing after that cup was thrown was getting up and walking out. That's a reasonable response.


Stefonics
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#98 Posted on 23.11.04 0403.35
Reposted on: 23.11.11 0407.25
StingArmy makes a good point.

That being said, I don't condone the actions of Artest. But, just for argument's sake, let's say that Artest didn't do anything in response to the first cup. It is conceivable that more people would have pelted him with beverages. It is definitely arguable in court because it is clear that the "security" at the event didn't do anything to hinder the behavior of the fans or the players. Had Artest not gone into the crowd, it is rather easy to imagine a situation where things could have gotten worse than they did. Hell, some fan threw a chair at the Indiana players anyway.

Jaguar, why the hell are you comparing what happened at the Pistons-Pacers game to a shooting?
Wolfram J. Paulovich
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#99 Posted on 23.11.04 0719.43
Reposted on: 23.11.11 0721.33
So they identified the cup-thrower on ESPN, and they've been running his, "What I did wasn't a big deal" interview this morning. But what I enjoy most about this is ESPN putting a red circle around the guy during the cup-throwing film and then offering commentary like this:

"Now, within this dot, you can see a man in a blue shirt and a white hat. Now, when we start this film, you'll see his right arm begin to move. You see, there? His arm begins to move -- now we have this in slo-mo -- and his right arm comes up. And there, yes, there you can see that he's underhanded the cup at Artest. See, it's a definite underhand toss. Now, if you go back and to the left.... Back... and to the left.... Back... and to the left...."


EDIT:
Obviously, it's not that bad. But I did immediately flash to images of JFK.

Anyway, the tosser's name is John Green. And wouldn't you know it? According to the conditions of his probation, it's illegal for him to have had alcohol at the game. The man has three drunk driving convictions. Claaaaaaaass.

(edited by Jeb Tennyson Lund on 23.11.04 0914)
jfkfc
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#100 Posted on 23.11.04 0859.54
Reposted on: 23.11.11 0900.08
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    StingArmy makes a good point.

    That being said, I don't condone the actions of Artest. But, just for argument's sake, let's say that Artest didn't do anything in response to the first cup. It is conceivable that more people would have pelted him with beverages. It is definitely arguable in court because it is clear that the "security" at the event didn't do anything to hinder the behavior of the fans or the players.
You have just started a circle here. If Artest does nothing and people keep throwing drinks....you can argue in court that because security did nothing to stop the fans or players....what? What can you argue?
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    Had Artest not gone into the crowd, it is rather easy to imagine a situation where things could have gotten worse than they did.
If you could explain how things could have been WORSE had Artest not gone into the crowd, go for it - this I have to see! He should have done exactly what Croshere did - go to the center of the court, and set the tone THAT way for his teammates. Of course, Artest's history would probably indicate that it ain't gonna happen like that. At worst, if he went to hang out with Croshere at center court, you have a beverage barrage for a bit, you wait for the security to get its shit together, and then leave the court as soon as it might be safest to do so.
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    Hell, some fan threw a chair at the Indiana players anyway.
This, of course, happened after the players did their thing in the stands. Do you really, honestly think that someone throws a chair because of a supposed hard foul, or because a player they don't like hams it up while laying on the scorers table? That's quite a stretch.
    Originally posted by Kidbrooklyn
    Jaguar, why the hell are you comparing what happened at the Pistons-Pacers game to a shooting?
Read all of what he posted instead of just the words "shot", "gun", and "shooting", think about the comparison for a minute or two, and surely you will understand the point. I apologize to both you and Jaguar if I misunderstood Jaguar's point, but it seems as though he wasn't making light of a shooting, only comparing two situations using StingArmy's dubious logic.
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