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The 7 - Baseball - Is Craig Biggio a Hall of Famer
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Grimis
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#1 Posted on 29.10.04 1142.34
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1144.25
I took a look at Craig Biggio's stats today after hearing that the Astros exercised their option, and was surprised to see these numbers.

BA: .286
HR: 234
RBI: 994
R: 1603
Hits: 2639

Conceivably, he could wind up with over 3000 hits if he plays another year or two.

His similarity scores from baseballreference.com indicate these scores:

Roberto Alomar (902)
Lou Whitaker (861)
Joe Morgan (833) *
Ryne Sandberg (826)
Barry Larkin (819)
Alan Trammell (815)
Robin Yount (800) *
Ted Simmons (780)
Charlie Gehringer (778) *
Buddy Bell (778)

According to his numbers, he would be a HOFer(Morgan, Young, and Gehringer are all there; Alomar will be).

But when I think of Hall of Famers, I think of a guy who dominates his position for a period of time. At no point have I considered Biggio one of the best Catchers, 2nd Basemen, or Outfielders of his time.

Do his numbers make the case?
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Whitebacon
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#2 Posted on 29.10.04 1158.51
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1159.01
    Originally posted by Grimis
    According to his numbers, he would be a HOFer(Morgan, Young, and Gehringer are all there; Alomar will be).



And Sandberg should be.

I think he has to get to 3000 to get in. Like you said, he's never been the dominant player at his position, but with 3000 hits, they pretty much have to let him in.
bash91
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#3 Posted on 29.10.04 1201.10
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1201.10
    Originally posted by Grimis
    According to his numbers, he would be a HOFer(Morgan, Young, and Gehringer are all there; Alomar will be).
    But when I think of Hall of Famers, I think of a guy who dominates his position for a period of time. At no point have I considered Biggio one of the best Catchers, 2nd Basemen, or Outfielders of his time.
    Do his numbers make the case?


No, Biggio is a very good player and has been for a long period of time, but that doesn't make him a Hall of Famer. I don't necessarily think that you have to be one of the best at your position to make the hall because defense is now a secondary consideration to offense. Pokey Reese is an incredible infielder, but I don't see him making the Hall because he doesn't hit that well. I think the Wizard of Ozz may well be the last to make the Hall without being an offensive stud. On the other hand, Mike Piazza is probably bound for the Hall despite being one of the worst catchers I've ever seen because he's an offensive threat.

Tim
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#4 Posted on 29.10.04 1207.27
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1207.29
I don't think he'll reach 3000 hits, so I'll say that he stays out of the HOF. He made several All-Star teams, but you could make the case that those were due to a lack of real star power at the NL 2B position. When Alomar jumped over to the Blue Jays, Biggio was pretty much IT for NL second basemen (circa 1991-1996). Good example of this drought: check out 1994 or 1995, when Carlos Garcia and Mickey Morandini were his All-Star back-ups.

He's finished top 10 in the MVP 3 times, but did not receive any first place votes. But writers seem to love the guy, so there is a chance he'll make the HOF someday.

If Houston wants to hang his number on their outfield wall, I don't see any problem with that. Not to discount Biggio, but I don't think of him as a "best of MLB" pick, rather "best of the Astros".
vsp
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#5 Posted on 29.10.04 1440.42
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1440.50
Four Gold Gloves. Steady but unspectacular offensive and baserunning numbers. Lots of doubles, pretty good HR numbers for his position. Weak postseason numbers, playing for a team that's never won a playoff series.

Know who he reminds me of? Al Kaline, a player who got into the HOF on sustained excellence rather than via record-setting accomplishments. Of course, Kaline ended 3,000 hits and a WS ring, and Biggio will need at _least_ one of those to compete for the Hall.




BigSteve
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#6 Posted on 29.10.04 1643.44
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1646.30
No I don't think that Biggio is a Hall of Famer. He's certainly a fine player and a nice guy, and if he got in it certainly wouldn't be the worst choice ever made by the Hall, or even in the top five. But when I think of the HOF, I think of players who had sustained excellence over a long period of time. Biggio was very good for a long time, but I'd be hard pressed to call him excellent.

On a side note, I think that within the next few yaers we're hopefully going to see (rightfully so) that 3000 hits or 500 HRs is no longer an automatic in to the HOF. By the time the generation fo players that started in the last 15 years is done playing, the offensive standards are gonna be dwarfed by these guys. Which reminds me, if Fred McGriff got 500 HRs, is he a HOFer?
Eddie Famous
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#7 Posted on 29.10.04 1802.53
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1810.00
    Originally posted by Grimis
    His similarity scores from baseballreference.com


Remember that number reflects both + and - comparisons.


He is in no way close to a Charlie Gehringer or Joe Morgan as a second baseman...

As an outfielder he doesn't cut it...he's somewhat close to Vada Pinson.

If he had remained at catcher, with those numbers...

But he probably wouldn't have had those numbers if he'd've stayed at catcher...

So I say no.
bash91
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#8 Posted on 29.10.04 1803.39
Reposted on: 29.10.11 1810.54
    Originally posted by BigSteve
    On a side note, I think that within the next few yaers we're hopefully going to see (rightfully so) that 3000 hits or 500 HRs is no longer an automatic in to the HOF. By the time the generation fo players that started in the last 15 years is done playing, the offensive standards are gonna be dwarfed by these guys. Which reminds me, if Fred McGriff got 500 HRs, is he a HOFer?


Agree on 500 homers, disagree on 3000 hits. Power numbers have been up across the board which is why I think that 500 homers isn't going to be an automatic in anymore. For example, I don't think that the Crime Dog would be an HoF'er with 500 or, as an even better example of someone who wouldn't make it in with 500 homers, Jose Canseco.

On the other hand, while power numbers have been up, there really hasn't been a corresponding increase in batting averages. 3000 hits requires 15 years of 200 hits which is an awfully impressive feat. If you can do that, or take more time while still being a position player, I think that's a sign that you've sustained excellence for long enough that you deserve to be in the Hall. Of course, that only applies to position players, dh's need not apply as I can't see rewarding you for hanging on long past your time and occupying a "position" that should never have been created, let alone allowed to remain in existence. And yes, I'm looking at you Edgar.

Tim
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#9 Posted on 30.10.04 1329.35
Reposted on: 30.10.11 1330.09
    Originally posted by Grimis
    But when I think of Hall of Famers, I think of a guy who dominates his position for a period of time. At no point have I considered Biggio one of the best Catchers, 2nd Basemen, or Outfielders of his time.


Well, that's good since he only caught for three years and not even full-time at that, and he didn't start playing outfield full-time until he was 37, but you not considering him one of the best second basemen of his time is just kind of wrong, because he was. He was a good-to-great hitter and tremendous fielder.

Four Gold Gloves, career .373 OBP, 18th all-time in doubles, 66th all-time in total bases, fourth all-time in being hit by pitches, and absurdly durable as only once from 1990-2004 did he fail to record 550 at-bats, excluding the 1994 and 1995 seasons for obvious reasons, though in '95 he still had 553.

If Alomar gets in, Biggio should. Believe it or not, Biggio has better defensive numbers at 2B than Alomar does, since Alomar has been below-average for the past three years and was just horrible bad this year. He also destroys Alomar in longevity, as Robbie is pretty much completely washed up here at 36 and Biggio is still contributing (though not on his former level) at 38.

Biggio and Alomar overall have similar offensive numbers, but this is partly because of the longevity issue. Biggio, while not still in his prime, has not declined to near the level Alomar has, but Alomar only played in 56 games this season. Alomar has been horrible two years in a row and was pretty bad the year before that.

So, really, I'd take Biggio over Alomar without thinking twice about it anymore. If Alomar is such a shoo-in, Biggio is too.
Joseph Ryder
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#10 Posted on 30.10.04 1543.05
Reposted on: 30.10.11 1543.18
    Originally posted by Grimis
    I took a look at Craig Biggio's stats today after hearing that the Astros exercised their option, and was surprised to see these numbers.

    BA: .286
    HR: 234
    RBI: 994
    R: 1603
    Hits: 2639

    Conceivably, he could wind up with over 3000 hits if he plays another year or two.

    His similarity scores from baseballreference.com indicate these scores:

    Roberto Alomar (902)
    Lou Whitaker (861)
    Joe Morgan (833) *
    Ryne Sandberg (826)
    Barry Larkin (819)
    Alan Trammell (815)
    Robin Yount (800) *
    Ted Simmons (780)
    Charlie Gehringer (778) *
    Buddy Bell (778)

    According to his numbers, he would be a HOFer(Morgan, Young, and Gehringer are all there; Alomar will be).

    But when I think of Hall of Famers, I think of a guy who dominates his position for a period of time. At no point have I considered Biggio one of the best Catchers, 2nd Basemen, or Outfielders of his time.

    Do his numbers make the case?



I think he is a HOFer and I think he's one of the most underrated players of my era if not any era. The problem for Biggio is he has all the little stats no one notices.

For example, he's been HBP 256 times, which is #4 all-time behind two 19th century players and Don Baylor. He'll pass Baylor next year and could break the record before he's done. On top of that, he's only GIDP 120 times, a better than 2-1 ratio (including one season of 34 HBP and 0 GIDP).

He also played in one of the worst stadiums for hitters during most of his career, and all of his prime. During his prime (let's say 1994-1999), despite playing in hitter's hell, he could have argubaly been considered the best player in the game. Lots or runs (despite the handicap), lots of SBs, very few CS, lots of HBP. And, as ScottChrist said, he was (is) a hell of a fielder.
BigVitoMark
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#11 Posted on 30.10.04 1849.53
Reposted on: 30.10.11 1849.55
If you've gotta make an argument for a guy to get in, he doesn't belong.

Biggio's a hell of a player. I've always been at least a casual fan of his. He's consistently good, a marginal all star year in and year out. I believe in the notion that it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good, and while Biggio has been pretty good for nearly 15 years, that doesn't get him in. His offensive numbers are strong but don't blow you away; defensively he's pretty good but never dazzling like Ozzie Smith or even Roberto Alomar, who has been mentioned.

Retire his number? Sure. Hall of Fame? No.
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