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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - VP Debate
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CRZ
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#21 Posted on 6.10.04 0003.09
Reposted on: 6.10.11 0004.34
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Actually -- my favorite part is hearing Dick Cheney alleging that tonight was the first time that they've met face to face, and then the Kerry rapid-response pulls this out of their bag:

    (image removed)

    Now *that's* warm and fuzzy. The picture above is from 2/1/01, btw.
1. He's not looking at Edwards! You've proven NOTHING!

2. Obviously Dick's too BEDAZZLED by his smokin' hot wife to remember anything else about that breakfast. Lynne (whitehouse.gov) - ROWR
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#22 Posted on 6.10.04 0625.06
Reposted on: 6.10.11 0626.41
Expectations were obviously set way WAY too high for Edwards. I was expecting much better out of him. His biggest problem is the fact that he keeps talking about how he and Kerry have been consistent on the war in Iraq when the public record just says otherwise. It is hard to maintain credibility with the public when the general public has established in their minds that Kedwards are flip-floppers and the first thing out of your mouth is "we're consistent."

My biggest problem with him is the fact that he was letting too much of his lawyer instincts show through.

- Looking very cagey as he gesticulated while Cheney talked.
- Asking about the topic to restate it to make a point.
- Basically using a question about one topic to go off on a long and pointless tangent on another topic.

The best analogy I heard last night was that Cheney was George Foreman. Old and crumudgeonly, but with enough power in his fists to do serious damage.

    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Actually -- my favorite part is hearing Dick Cheney alleging that tonight was the first time that they've met face to face, and then the Kerry rapid-response pulls this out of their bag:
I think it's sad that the Kerry team found it necessary to respond to that line with all of the other body blows that Edwards took. Truth be told though, Kedwards took a lot of shots for their poor attendnace, just not this mention.

I thought it was interesting that Edwards put forth limits on liability lawsuits in regards to a three strikes rules for lawyers. I think it is an interesting concept, but will be buried by the fact that he is a rich trial lawyer and has no credibility on the issue.
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#23 Posted on 6.10.04 0702.13
Reposted on: 6.10.11 0702.37
I give Cheney the nod on this debate. The man is good at driving home key points without sounding repetitive and depleted of ideas (MUCH Better than Bush). He came off as scolding and very on-target for the most part. I thought Edwards held his own fair enough, even though I feel he was out of his league.

Of course in a sense, I would rather see Kerry/Cheney and Edwards/Bush.

From what I saw (about 45 minutes), I found the moderator to be fair and pointed in her questions and found the forum to feel very itimate (which is interesting given the amount of personal slings both men threw at one another).

I don't buy ths idea that stating that we are fundng 90% of the war is somehow snubbing our allies if we are, in fact, funding that much of it. I've got to go check fact-check to see how many gross exxagerations were made.
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#24 Posted on 6.10.04 0758.50
Reposted on: 6.10.11 0759.02
So they sat next to each other at a prayer breakfast 3 years ago and Cheney doesn't remember it - guess that shows how much of an impression Edwards made on Cheney that day.

Cheney won the debate but the results won't matter one iota - VP Debates are interesting but mainly inconsequential - each candidate took their shots, defended their men and their parties and will be virtually forgotten by Friday at 9pm.
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#25 Posted on 6.10.04 0800.40
Reposted on: 6.10.11 0802.13
    Originally posted by EddieBurkett
    I have to say that Cheney did the best job. Not only was he relentless in his attacks ("Tonight is the first time I've met him" was vicious),


Vicious was one word that came to mind for me. Another word was childish. Cheney's demeanor comes off as very condescending.

(edited by CRZ on 6.10.04 1826)
The Goon
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#26 Posted on 6.10.04 0919.31
Reposted on: 6.10.11 0921.31
I was horrified when John Edwards spoke about Cheney's gay daughter. Something to the effect of "It's great to see they embrace her." John, she's gay, she's not the friggin' Elephant Man.

I found that line condescending. What could Cheney say to that?
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#27 Posted on 6.10.04 0942.44
Reposted on: 6.10.11 0945.07
    Originally posted by The Goon
    I was horrified when John Edwards spoke about Cheney's gay daughter. Something to the effect of "It's great to see they embrace her." John, she's gay, she's not the friggin' Elephant Man.

    I found that line condescending. What could Cheney say to that?

I think Cheney's response was simple but one of the more brilliant moments of the debate. Dignified way of saying "oh... and I'M the prick?"
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#28 Posted on 6.10.04 1020.37
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1021.13
Well, while several are calling last night's debate either a tie or a slight Cheney victory, it seems that, oddly enough, the undecideds thought Edwards won. Here's an interesting post from Andrew Sullivan's (republican) blog:

Here's an email that confirms my view of how well Edwards did with swing voters:
If you do some simple math, you can figure out that your instinct about the ABC news poll is right. Because the 38% in the sample who were Republicans gave it overwhelmingly to Cheney, with only a few Repubs calling it a draw, and because a substantial plurality of Democracts called it a draw (approx 30%), you can figure out how the 32 percent of the sample who were independents must have called it. On my math, it comes out approximately 43 for Edwards, 34 for Cheney, and 23 a draw. That puts the ABC poll figures for independents awfully close to the CBS poll for uncommiteds.
Exactly. The Republican base saw the election slipping away last Thursday. They needed a win and they convinced themselves they had one. But Edwards directed his answers to the undecideds. And, unless the pro-Cheney spin gets deafening, he scored big.


BTW, the CBS poll of all undecided voters had Edwards at 41% and Cheney at 28%.
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#29 Posted on 6.10.04 1024.47
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1025.12
Cheney cam off like the older brother, telling the younger one he was full of shit a lot last nite.

Edwards spoke well, he just didnt have much to say other than "Haliburton!" "MISLED!" "DEFICIT!" and "PLAN!". But, what do you expect from a man who once said in a closing argument that the spirit of a dead baby was compelling him to fight the case in court?
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#30 Posted on 6.10.04 1156.29
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1156.41
CNN put together an excellent breakdown of "facts" vs. "sound bytes".

Click Here (cnn.com)

Drop: The man (Cheney) is good at driving home key points without sounding repetitive and depleted of ideas (MUCH Better than Bush).

This is the reason Cheney has been kept on board, in my opinion. Basically (and the Republican Convention confirmed this with a sledgehammer effect)...Bush is obviously sick and tired of having to repeat himself about his reasons and rational over the War and the Post 9/11 action of the administration in general...and the best retort that the Democratic opposition can come up with is using hindsight, which is always a 50/50 proposition at best

Bush knows where he stands and no one is going to change his mind. The problem is, and it showed in the debate, is he can't control his disgust of having to repeat himself over and over and over again, especially, as mentioned above, the only retort from Kerry is:

"Yes we should have done it, but we should have done it differently...no wait, we shouldn't have done it at all without an engraved and certified invitation from France...no wait - we SHOULD have done it, but not have done it in a way that we could have done it differently, using the way that it should have been done in the first place"

Which leaves Bush to come off looking like a condescending prick and sounding like a broken record. He should leave it at "I know where I stand". If any of you have kids, you know what I'm talking about - how many times do you have to repeat yourself before it actually sinks in? Whether what you are saying is agreed or disagreed with, saying it over and over without blowing a fuse takes a certain amount of discipline and patience. Bush still needs help with that

Which is why I hope they sit him down at the Cheney school of being repetitively condescending without * sounding * like it...and more importantly, not making stupid faces

Looking forward to Kerry / Bush II, where they finally get off this war bullshit and get to neat things like the economy and Kerry telling us how bad off we are in this country. I love hearing that...

FLEA
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#31 Posted on 6.10.04 1246.52
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1247.08
    Originally posted by Grimis

    My biggest problem with him is the fact that he was letting too much of his lawyer instincts show through.

    - Looking very cagey as he gesticulated while Cheney talked.
    - Asking about the topic to restate it to make a point.
    - Basically using a question about one topic to go off on a long and pointless tangent on another topic.



And that's different than any debate? Edwards didn't perform as stellar as Kerry, but did he have to?

And Cheney, while turning in a better performance than W last Thursday, was more Grumpy Old Man 2004 than the 'grandfatherly' and wise/stoic Cheney of 2000.

    Originally posted by Grimis


    I think it's sad that the Kerry team found it necessary to respond to that line with all of the other body blows that Edwards took. Truth be told though, Kedwards took a lot of shots for their poor attendnace, just not this mention.




It's sad that they responded to a lie? This isn't Dukakis-era anymore; would the Republicans do the same to spin that away?

    Originally posted by Vice President Cheney
    "Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session."


According to the Congressional Record, there's only twice in the last four years that Cheney has presided as the acting President of the Senate on Tuesdays.

EDIT: Too specific? Sure, but the research I found was based off of his comment.

P.S. Another report today out that there's still no WMD's in Iraq.

P.P.S. You forgot Poland.

(edited by Teppan-Yaki on 6.10.04 1254)
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#32 Posted on 6.10.04 1250.19
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1250.30
Well Flea, hopefully when they get to talking about domestic issues, Bush will be less likely to use fear as a scare tactic as he did in the first debate. Domestic talk *should* play to Kerry's strengths (meaning it plays more to areas wher Bush can be seen as weaker). We'll see.


I hope that instead of simply talking about jobs and unemployment that they also talk about UNDEREMPLOYMENT. That's where a real crisis is. I know a number of people (college educated with kids) who HAVE jobs that don't pay all of their bills (even thought they have strong skill sets and backgrounds). Probably won't happen, but a guy can wish, can't he?

And as for those Fact-Checks, this part is classic:
    Originally posted by CNN.com
    He (Edwards) also asserted, "They sent 40,000 American troops into Iraq without the body armor they needed," a comment that might suggest they had no body armor at all, when in fact they did.

    Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said 40,000 troops did not have the brand new, improved armor but, "every soldier and Marine on the ground over had body armor."

    Cheney accused Kerry of voting for taxes 98 times. That's down from the 350 times wrongly claimed by Republicans, but it's still a stretch. Those 98 votes include times when Kerry voted for lower taxes -- but not as low as Republicans wanted. And times when many procedural votes were cast on a single tax increase or package.



(edited by DrOp on 6.10.04 1354)
Grimis
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#33 Posted on 6.10.04 1250.26
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1251.16
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    It's sad that they responded to a lie? This isn't Dukakis-era anymore; would the Republicans do the same to spin that away?
No, I think it's sad that "Cheney got this wrong" to that little tidbit of information is the only thing they can refute with, and that still does not fix Kedward's poor attendnace record.

    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    According to the Congressional Record, there's only twice in the last four years that Cheney has presided as the acting President of the Senate.
I see a link, but still don't know where the hell you data is coming from.

Incidentally, Cheney is the President of the Senate; he would never be acting President...
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#34 Posted on 6.10.04 1255.48
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1255.53
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    It's sad that they responded to a lie? This isn't Dukakis-era anymore; would the Republicans do the same to spin that away?
It's sad that they missed the point and dug up a 3 year old picture from a prayer breakfast, rather than finding something to prove that Senator Gone shows up to vote every now and then.
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#35 Posted on 6.10.04 1301.10
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1301.16
Last comments:

This story is from the Winston-Salem Constitution:

    Originally posted by Winston-Salem Constitution
    Before this year, Edwards missed just seven votes out of 1,307 in his first four years in office, [spokesman] Briggs said. During his five years in the Senate, Edwards voted 1,551 times out of 1,626 roll-call votes, Briggs said, or 95.4 percent.


Yup -- Edwards was *never* there.

Cheney wanted this to be his Bentsen moment, and it's backfiring.
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#36 Posted on 6.10.04 1312.35
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1312.48
Impressive. Now, let's talk about what his record has been since he ran for President.

To be fair though, Edwards' attendance record is better than that of, oh, I don't know....John Kerry.
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#37 Posted on 6.10.04 1346.00
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1346.35
    Originally posted by OMEGA
    Well, while several are calling last night's debate either a tie or a slight Cheney victory, it seems that, oddly enough, the undecideds thought Edwards won. Here's an interesting post from Andrew Sullivan's (republican) blog:

    Here's an email that confirms my view of how well Edwards did with swing voters:
    If you do some simple math, you can figure out that your instinct about the ABC news poll is right. Because the 38% in the sample who were Republicans gave it overwhelmingly to Cheney, with only a few Repubs calling it a draw, and because a substantial plurality of Democracts called it a draw (approx 30%), you can figure out how the 32 percent of the sample who were independents must have called it. On my math, it comes out approximately 43 for Edwards, 34 for Cheney, and 23 a draw. That puts the ABC poll figures for independents awfully close to the CBS poll for uncommiteds.
    Exactly. The Republican base saw the election slipping away last Thursday. They needed a win and they convinced themselves they had one. But Edwards directed his answers to the undecideds. And, unless the pro-Cheney spin gets deafening, he scored big.


    BTW, the CBS poll of all undecided voters had Edwards at 41% and Cheney at 28%.


That's probably the most interesting thing that's been said in this whole thread.

-Jag

As for this asinine debate over Senate votes while campaigning... what exactly have GWB and The Dick been doing for our country since THEY started campaigning? Any visits with other countries? Any new policies? Any new actual plans on running this country? Last thing they've done that got in the news was the idiotic Gay Marriage Ban. And that was what, four months ago?

Pot, Kettle - You're both stupid.
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#38 Posted on 6.10.04 1416.46
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1417.07
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Impressive. Now, let's talk about what his record has been since he ran for President.

    To be fair though, Edwards' attendance record is better than that of, oh, I don't know....John Kerry.


Hey, no one ever said that Edwards wasn't a better candidate than Kerry... ;)
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#39 Posted on 6.10.04 1421.47
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1421.48
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    That's probably the most interesting thing that's been said in this whole thread.


If you want to use one CBS poll and the politically strange Andrew Sullivan, then, yes, it is. I like Sullivan well enough, but if you've been following his blog at all you'll see he's changed his tune quite a bit lately. The impression I get is that he doesn't have much use for the President. (Which is fine, but he's as 'Republican' as Lincoln Chaffee.)

    Originally posted by Jaguar

    As for this asinine debate over Senate votes while campaigning... what exactly have GWB and The Dick been doing for our country since THEY started campaigning? Any visits with other countries? Any new policies? Any new actual plans on running this country? Last thing they've done that got in the news was the idiotic Gay Marriage Ban. And that was what, four months ago?

    Pot, Kettle - You're both stupid.


Well, he has been prosecuting a war.

And you made a penis joke... LOL!

(edited by PalpatineW on 6.10.04 1522)
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#40 Posted on 6.10.04 1501.30
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1501.31
I think Cheney won the debate. I thought it was pretty clear, though closer than last week's Presidential Debate.

This reminded me of a board room on The Apprentice, with Cheney picking apart Edwards in a really heated job interview. Edwards' blinking was apparent the whole time while Cheney sat and sneered the whole time, rubbing his hands together maniacally.

When addressing Iraq, Cheney seemed more confident listing off his claims to counteract accusations. However, these claims are still a big contrast to the conclusions that investigations have come to.

Edwards had poor responses toward the beginning, where he kept reciting soundbytes about how John Kerry served in Vietnam or whatever, which killed some potential opportunities to respond to Cheney.

When it comes to how things are going in Iraq, if Cheney wants to say that the Iraqis are taking much more of the casualty percentage along with our forces, then they should start counting Iraqi casualties. As long as we're not getting those numbers, we can't count them. Period. As it stands, 1064 American soldiers have died and who knows how many Iraqis? Cheney knows we don't get those numbers, so he just throws those out to distract people.

Secondly, Cheney flat out lied when he said he was meeting John Edwards for the first time as a way to illustrate his Senate attendance record. This was supposed to be his big "You, sir, are no Jack Kennedy" moment, but he can't back it up. That needed to be attacked in the moment. The media seems to have picked up on it, however.

They also met at Elizabeth Dole's swearing-in ceremony. And, according to Tim Russert, even shook hands at Meet the Press.

Well, actually, Cheney never met him but they sat together and been within a foot of each other. Oh, wait. They shook hands, too. Oh, well. It's not Edwards' fault Cheney is antisocial.


Cheney used several instances to trap Edwards in supposed "flip-flops" and Edwards fell in. Edwards said "No Child Left Behind was good," but that since it was underfunded it was ineffective, and Cheney contrived Edwards' statements into saying "No Child Left Behind was bad." They're not against it. They want the money going into it. "It's the how, stupid."

Cheney was very skilled in manipulation, and he may have fooled the viewers. Online polls and post-debate spin don't reflect that it worked yet, but it may have longterm results.

Edwards still did better than Bush did last Thursday, though. Cheney had a few claims about Edwards' attendance and voting record, and while Edwards didn't defend himself as strongly as he could have, he came back with his own claims about Cheney's voting record. He went on the offensive more often and brought up issues and inconsistencies about Cheney's record that have been applied to Kerry's.

I still think Cheney pointed out more obvious flaws about Edwards than vice-versa, but neither man adequately addressed their own personal flaws and instead stayed on the offensive.

I could swear I heard Cheney's cybernetic heart beep once when Edwards spoke about his daughter. This moment worked for both candidates, with Edwards pointing out Cheney's differing opinion from his boss (and the fact that he has a gay daughter) and Cheney showing some class.

Both candidates strayed from the format repeatedly. The most obvious was Edwards mentioning John Kerry by name when he wasn't supposed to (twice). Both candidates ignored some questions and let old ones linger into other topics.

Regardless of who won or lost, Gwen Whats-her-face was a poor moderator. There was a lot of tension in the air and I think she was thrown off by it. In the first half hour, both candidates came out swinging. There was that bizarre moment at the end where she let Edwards speak again for a moment before realizing her mistake. But, I guess being a debate moderator is hard work.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 6.10.04 1310)
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