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30.10.07 0737
The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Michael Moore tries to buy votes with underwear and noodles
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Guru Zim
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#21 Posted on 6.10.04 1645.37
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1646.11
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    The sad thing is, people are giving the bastard exactly what he wants. I honestly don't think he cares whether or not Kerry wins - he just wants people to pay attention to him. And this attempt to get him arrested is just making people "look at Michael Moore," which is exactly what he wants.

    He is nothing more than an annoying, ignorant, ego-maniacal blow-hard, and I have no idea why Republicans spend so much time and effort giving him what he wants. If you "oppose" him, you give him credibility.

    It's UNDERWEAR - it isn't a substantial bribe. Anyone who would take underwear of Ramen to vote for Kerry were probably going to do so anyway. Until he makes a serious effort to buy votes, I don't see why anyone is wasting their time with this...


So, since it is college kids getting bribes it's OK?

You don't think anyone would freak out severely if it was discovered that Mexican Farmworkers were being given food and clothes as a trade for registering to vote and promising to vote for a candidate?

I guess it just depends on how you spin it. I can definitely see someone being upset that underwear or ramen were being used as bribes if this was happening in California.
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#22 Posted on 6.10.04 1651.03
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1651.26
There was a big deal I believe in Wisconsin and another swing state in 2000 about the Gore camp bribing people with cigarettes. Bribery is a big deal, no matter how you try to minimize it.
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#23 Posted on 6.10.04 1707.05
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1708.12
I just think it's rather funny that promising to "Lower Taxes" is legal, but promising to give people money is not. Apparently capitalism and democracy don't mix?

-Jag
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#24 Posted on 6.10.04 1708.44
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1709.02

    Well, signing people up, and signing people up and ending the session with a PICK KERRY chant, are two completely different things.


So should Bruce Springsteen, R.E.M., the Dixie Chicks, etc. all be thrown in jail for the Vote For Change tour? They're basically saying "Hey, we're playing a concert for you, so vote for Kerry!"

    Originally posted by Grimis
    My God he's brilliant; he admits to committing a serious crime. Brilliant.


Bush admits to war crimes every day, so potato potahto.
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#25 Posted on 6.10.04 1729.22
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1730.35
    Originally posted by Big Bad

      Well, signing people up, and signing people up and ending the session with a PICK KERRY chant, are two completely different things.


    So should Bruce Springsteen, R.E.M., the Dixie Chicks, etc. all be thrown in jail for the Vote For Change tour? They're basically saying "Hey, we're playing a concert for you, so vote for Kerry!"


Aren't people paying for admittance to these concerts? There's a notable difference here.
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#26 Posted on 6.10.04 1756.39
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1757.05
Last time Moore came to Santa Barbara - last October - you had to pay to get in, price at the venue's discretion.

Anyway, quoting from CRZ's link:
    Originally posted by Election Law @ Moritz

    "advance, pay, or cause to be paid or procure or offer to procure money or other valuable thing to or for the use of another, with the intent that it or part of thereof shall be used to induce such person to vote or to refrain from voting."


Last time I bought Raman noodles, they were 6 for a dollar. Last time I bought underwear (well, I tend like nicer boxers), it was 3 for $11. Maybe he gave out REALLY nice underwear and gourmet noodles, but somehow I doubt either could be considered a "valuable thing".

And quoting yet again:

    Originally posted by Election Law @ Moritz

    "In order to induce a person to vote, one must promise or provide something beyond which is involved in the act of voting; there must be an advantage which has independent value to the voter. Otherwise it could not induce the decision to vote."


Alright, maybe there's a point here. That is, until you read further:

    Originally posted by Election Law @ Moritz

    "It is generally held that treating by a candidate, as is customarily done in the daily intercourse of men, is not a violation of a corrupt-practices act, or a similar act, prohibiting the influencing of voters by the gift of refreshments." 15 If these gifts remain small enough, they do not qualify as illegal consideration for a vote."


So there you go. Once again, much ado about nothing.

And OFB has the greatest signature EVER!

(edited by Leroy on 6.10.04 1558)
CRZ
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#27 Posted on 6.10.04 1812.39
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1812.39
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Well, signing people up, and signing people up and ending the session with a PICK KERRY chant, are two completely different things.
You've said this a few times, so I'll try again.

You don't HAVE to specify a suggested vote. Merely offering the "bribe" to REGISTER is just as illegal. Read the law again (or the first time).

Yeah, it's a JOKE bribe. Does that make it any less illegal? How illegal does something have to be before it's okay to prosecute them for breaking the law?

Maybe Moore should try to change the law, but that'd probably involve more effort than he's interested in expending... or more credibility than he appears to possess.
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#28 Posted on 6.10.04 1900.53
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1901.59
    Originally posted by Big Bad

      Well, signing people up, and signing people up and ending the session with a PICK KERRY chant, are two completely different things.


    So should Bruce Springsteen, R.E.M., the Dixie Chicks, etc. all be thrown in jail for the Vote For Change tour? They're basically saying "Hey, we're playing a concert for you, so vote for Kerry!"


No, cause it still costs the same to hear Bruce and Matthews speak in barely understandable terms about their political choice as it does to hear their music.

They could be charged with other crimes (extending a career without a purpose comes to mind)
Grimis
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#29 Posted on 6.10.04 1914.49
Reposted on: 6.10.11 1915.15
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    should Bruce Springsteen, R.E.M., the Dixie Chicks, etc. all be thrown in jail for the Vote For Change tour? They're basically saying "Hey, we're playing a concert for you, so vote for Kerry!"
This is a capitalist transaction. The customer pays for a service, this time a show. It is why Moore's movie is legal, and why Moore's electoral crimes are not.

    Originally posted by Leroy
    I just think it's rather funny that promising to "Lower Taxes" is legal, but promising to give people money is not. Apparently capitalism and democracy don't mix?
No, it's that one is a legitimate argument during a political debate. What Moore is doing is, in legal terms, electoral fraud.

asteroidboy
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#30 Posted on 6.10.04 2132.01
Reposted on: 6.10.11 2132.06
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Yeah, it's a JOKE bribe. Does that make it any less illegal?


Question answered!

Seriously, what's with all the harrumphing over this? It was clearly a JOKE bribe. Okay, if Moore actually passed out underwear and Top Ramen immediately after these kids registered, then I'll join you with the torches and the pitchforks and the mobbing.

Has the demonization of Moore progressed to the point to where you guys want to lynch him on a technicality? Jeez.

(edited by asteroidboy on 6.10.04 2132)
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#31 Posted on 6.10.04 2137.46
Reposted on: 6.10.11 2138.57
I may think it's a funny "joke" to say "Hahaha I have a bomb. No, I'm kidding" at the airport, but does the fact that I think it's a joke make it less illegal?

Hint: There are big ass signs saying "Do not joke about illegal shit" at the airport*

*I may be paraphrasing.

From reading Moore's quoted words above, it sure sounds like he is actually giving out the items if they register. Isn't that what you just said you would find disagreeable?
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#32 Posted on 6.10.04 2155.38
Reposted on: 6.10.11 2155.38
Yup, if he gave them out, then he's out of line. I took it to mean that he was using the alleged graft as a vehicle to joke about his audience of college students.

Although on further review, this line is weird:

Now, after enduring all this, with no tricks left in their bag, they've just decided, "Let's toss his sorry ass behind bars -- him and his noodles and his gift of clean underwear!"

Hrmmm... maybe he did give them underwear. And noodles.
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#33 Posted on 6.10.04 2230.57
Reposted on: 6.10.11 2230.57
The Vote for Change Tour is not simply a concert, but a donation to a 527. You have to be a citizen, 18, not a federal contractor and submit certain information about yourself in order to purchase a ticket. So, it's not really comparable here.

- sells tickets over the phone for a living, along with several other college educated adults. The economy is just GREAT!
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#34 Posted on 7.10.04 0519.54
Reposted on: 7.10.11 0520.01
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    Hint: There are big ass signs saying "Do not joke about illegal shit" at the airport*

    *I may be paraphrasing.


You know, Guru, I haven't seen "Soul Plane" yet, but I bet that is exactly what those signs say in the Snoop Dog administered airports.

Look, We give slacker kids all sorts of things, just to gain excitement. I'm certainly no Michael Moore fan, but, while it may indeed be against the law to do what he did, I'd be willing to give him a pass on this one, especially if those slacker kids manage to actually vote. And if they vote in two elections, He should get knighted.

(that means he needs to move to england, right?)
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#35 Posted on 7.10.04 0524.56
Reposted on: 7.10.11 0525.08


From CRZ's first link:

Codifying the ban on voter bribery, the United States Congress has prohibited the conspiracy to encourage illegal voting and stated that anyone who "pays or offers to pay or accepts payment either for registration to vote or for voting shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

So, if I read this correctly, one is commiting an illegal act by mearly offering the bribe? Actually paying up on the bribe is a non-issue in the eyes of the law?

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#36 Posted on 7.10.04 0534.19
Reposted on: 7.10.11 0534.59
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    Actually paying up on the bribe is a non-issue in the eyes of the law?
Offering the bribe is illegal whether paid or not, but get this - accepting the bribe is also illegal. Doing it unknowingly only gets you half the sentence of doing it with intent, however. (See footnote 5.)

Upon further review, I now hope that Michael Moore AND the college students who accepted his "gifts" get prosecuted. Not only is it only fair, but it makes for a much better story!

(edited by CRZ on 7.10.04 0536)
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#37 Posted on 7.10.04 0544.14
Reposted on: 7.10.11 0549.15
For the life of me, for some reason, I always thought that bribes were only illegal if accepted.

I'm a HUGE M.M. supporter, but if this is all true, I hope he gets prosecuted as well.

Many people say that Bush "stole" the last election, but wouldn't all this bribery be the exact same thing if it influenced the polls and Kerry won? The GOP would be yelling the same things the Dems were yelling back in 2000, but the GOP would have a better case.
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#38 Posted on 7.10.04 0622.00
Reposted on: 7.10.11 0625.13
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    For the life of me, for some reason, I always thought that bribes were only illegal if accepted.
I think that's true if you bribe a member of Congress(I'm being serious too).

    Originally posted by Zeruel
    Many people say that Bush "stole" the last election, but wouldn't all this bribery be the exact same thing if it influenced the polls and Kerry won?
Finally, a voice of reason.

I really don't care if Michael Moore did this, or Ted Nugent did it. Election fraud and violations of election law is something that needs to be avoided at all cost.

I do find it humorous that a lot of people defending Moore in this case are the same people who were in support of international election monitors to "make sure our elecitons were fair."
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#39 Posted on 7.10.04 0841.07
Reposted on: 7.10.11 0842.44
Besides the fact that Moore offering things is illegal, is he actually giving the items once they have registered?
Is there proof of that?
If he doesn't give them the boxers/noodles, could they sue him? Guess not since they would admit to the crime too, right?

If his own words are true (1000s of new voters) he has to spend thousands of dollars on these things..think he is actually doing that?
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#40 Posted on 7.10.04 1013.31
Reposted on: 7.10.11 1013.55
    Originally posted by dMp
    Besides the fact that Moore offering things is illegal, is he actually giving the items once they have registered?
    Is there proof of that?
    If he doesn't give them the boxers/noodles, could they sue him? Guess not since they would admit to the crime too, right?

    If his own words are true (1000s of new voters) he has to spend thousands of dollars on these things..think he is actually doing that?



What would be fun to know is if companies like Fruit of the Loom were giving these "prizes" to Moore so he could hand them out.

It's a damned conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!

(edited by AWArulz on 7.10.04 1113)
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