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TheMASKEDComputerGeek
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#61 Posted on 1.10.04 1136.02
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1136.03
    Originally posted by Grimis
    -The personal story about the woman who lost her husband, and his chat with them. It was a very touching and moving part when actually it was rather unexepcted. It's a personal touch that nobody would believe coming from Kerry



This was actually the absolute worst "See? I'm compassionate!" play of all time. There was nothing about that part of the speech that seemed remotely genuine, and he also said something to the effect of "You know, it's hard work to try and love her as best I can, knowing full well that the decision I made caused her loved one to be in harm's way." Now if that isn't tear-jerking award-winning compassionate Presidential man-love, I don't know what is.
Mayhem
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#62 Posted on 1.10.04 1141.21
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1147.02
    Originally posted by TheMASKEDComputerGeek
      Originally posted by Grimis
      -The personal story about the woman who lost her husband, and his chat with them. It was a very touching and moving part when actually it was rather unexepcted. It's a personal touch that nobody would believe coming from Kerry



    This was actually the absolute worst "See? I'm compassionate!" play of all time. There was nothing about that part of the speech that seemed remotely genuine, and he also said something to the effect of "You know, it's hard work to try and love her as best I can, knowing full well that the decision I made caused her loved one to be in harm's way." Now if that isn't tear-jerking award-winning compassionate Presidential man-love, I don't know what is.


Exaclty ... that comment made me nauseous ... Bush was trying to play the sympathy card and he failed.
Barbwire Mike
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#63 Posted on 1.10.04 1145.23
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1147.57
I was crushed when W told the "widowed wife" story. Came off just like those stomach-churningly bogus yarns Gore told of 80 year old women begging him to save health care because they were eating cat food so they could afford prescriptions.

Not well played, George.
Grimis
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#64 Posted on 1.10.04 1147.26
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1148.05
    Originally posted by Battlezone
    Grimis, I'm just curious. These two quotes seem to suggest that when CBS and the other nets say Kerry won, it's That Damn Liberal Media in action. But when *Fox News* says Kerry won, it's a business "trying to make a buck". Am I reading that wrong?
I figured from the get go that regardless of how the debate went last night, the media was going to declare it a Kerry victory and that the race was going to tighten up. It's a ratings ploy, pure and simple.

Regardless of who won, Kerry is in trouble. His performance last night was not a good one. Esepcially if the numbers AWA posted are true(and I have no reason to believe right now that they are because of this statement from the article:

Respondents were first interviewed September 28-29, 2004, when they indicated there was some chance they would watch tonight's debate and were willing to be called back.

This harms the accuracy of the poll since this is more self-selected than a normal poll.
evilwaldo
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#65 Posted on 1.10.04 1223.31
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1229.02
It seemed to me as though Kerry came off as more 'presidential' than Bush which is not going to help either base but may sway the undecideds. Bush did not seem to have control of the situation which worries me as he is the president and should have been more prepared and shown up with his A game.

The rules violation that Grimis mentions is that in the 32 pages of rules there was not supposed to be any time for rebuttals, just a couple of minutes to answer the questions and state their views. It was negotiated by both sides.

Can I vote for Lehrer?
LionJeetSingh
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#66 Posted on 1.10.04 1327.41
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1327.46
"If you were a student of political science, you would know that data is not crap."


I was a political science major and I am not aware if all data is crap or not.

fuelinjected
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#67 Posted on 1.10.04 1346.19
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1346.56
I thought Kerry came across very well but the image of the cowboy is so engrained in American culture that Kerry may not be able to overcome it even though Bush is no more of a 'cowboy' then Kerry is. If I were Kerry, I would have spent money exposing Bush's faux-everyman image that started with his father's fake image.

I don't see that either guy ran away with anything but for the undecided voters who watched, John Kerry looked and spoke like a President. If they were on the fence about him, I can see them voting for him now.

It may all sound so trivial but the last election was decided on "Gore is boring - Bush is funny".
Grimis
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#68 Posted on 1.10.04 1350.38
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1351.18
    Originally posted by evilwaldo
    The rules violation that Grimis mentions is that in the 32 pages of rules there was not supposed to be any time for rebuttals, just a couple of minutes to answer the questions and state their views. It was negotiated by both sides.
Well here's the beef and it depends on whether or not you consider those to be rebuttals per se. The President did indicate more than once(and Kerry did as well) that he wished to continue the discussion, and it was at Lehrer's discretion that the rebuttal took place. Technically, that is not a rules violation, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to say that into a microphone in the middle of the debate.
AWArulz
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#69 Posted on 1.10.04 1400.02
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1400.57
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
    I was crushed when W told the "widowed wife" story. Came off just like those stomach-churningly bogus yarns Gore told of 80 year old women begging him to save health care because they were eating cat food so they could afford prescriptions.

    Not well played, George.


Really? I admit I wasn't listening much last night Intense game of Pokemon Puzzle League - but MrsAWA, admittedly more conservative than I, was actually crying at that point.
evilwaldo
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#70 Posted on 1.10.04 1414.49
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1416.28
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by evilwaldo
      The rules violation that Grimis mentions is that in the 32 pages of rules there was not supposed to be any time for rebuttals, just a couple of minutes to answer the questions and state their views. It was negotiated by both sides.
    Well here's the beef and it depends on whether or not you consider those to be rebuttals per se. The President did indicate more than once(and Kerry did as well) that he wished to continue the discussion, and it was at Lehrer's discretion that the rebuttal took place. Technically, that is not a rules violation, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to say that into a microphone in the middle of the debate.


Thanks for mentioning that. I was wondering why Lehrer handled that so well. There had to have been a contingency somewhere.
PalpatineW
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#71 Posted on 1.10.04 1426.39
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1427.12
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
      I was crushed when W told the "widowed wife" story. Came off just like those stomach-churningly bogus yarns Gore told of 80 year old women begging him to save health care because they were eating cat food so they could afford prescriptions.

      Not well played, George.


    Really? I admit I wasn't listening much last night Intense game of Pokemon Puzzle League - but MrsAWA, admittedly more conservative than I, was actually crying at that point.


Probably no one in this thread is a good judge on this one. Unless we have some undecided women out there.

People are hammering Bush on his performance, and it was clearly a bad "performance," but I'm still not convinced Kerry killed him in the debate. Kerry won the battle of image, yes. But the public is so inoculated to Bush's inability to speak that I'm not sure how much water that carries. We "know" that Bush is verbally inept. At what point do people stop caring?

The question I have is, Were voters paying more attention to Bush's flustered demeanor, or to his substantive clashes with Kerry? I still say Bush came across well on the issues. He hit Kerry on Korea, he hit Kerry on the issue of allies, and he even corrected Kerry a couple times. Bush also seemed serious in a way that Kerry did not. It's about time that someone called the supposed diplomat on his stupid (and politically stupid) insults of Allawi, and the "window dressing" "coerced and bribed" allies. The man is playing politics a little too much here, and not only do I find it repulsive, I think it came back just a little bit to bite him in the ass.

But, time will tell, eh?
asteroidboy
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#72 Posted on 1.10.04 1439.22
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1439.25
    Originally posted by Grimis
    I figured from the get go that regardless of how the debate went last night, the media was going to declare it a Kerry victory and that the race was going to tighten up. It's a ratings ploy, pure and simple.


Definintely. If it's a blowout, people quit watching. If Bush were down, at least some of the outlets would have been gushing over his emotion and candor. I think Kerry won last night, but unless he had completely fallen on his face, he would have won it anyway.

Remember, regardless of what bias you attribute to the TV media, they're ALL biased towards sensationalism. And nothing's more sensational than a come-from-behind story, even if they have to manufacture one.
BigSteve
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#73 Posted on 1.10.04 1625.43
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1625.49
Did Kerry actually give a plan on Iraq, other than 'let's get them out of there ASAP'? Bush gave a plan, but Kerry had none. Kerry wanted bi-lateral talks with North Korea, but also wondered why the president wasn't being as hard on North Korea as he was being on Iraq. Bush didn't win the 'debate', but he did win the battle of getting his missages across, even of they were a little mexed at times.
evilwaldo
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#74 Posted on 1.10.04 1630.13
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1630.17
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
      Originally posted by AWArulz
        Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
        I was crushed when W told the "widowed wife" story. Came off just like those stomach-churningly bogus yarns Gore told of 80 year old women begging him to save health care because they were eating cat food so they could afford prescriptions.

        Not well played, George.


      Really? I admit I wasn't listening much last night Intense game of Pokemon Puzzle League - but MrsAWA, admittedly more conservative than I, was actually crying at that point.


    Probably no one in this thread is a good judge on this one. Unless we have some undecided women out there.

    People are hammering Bush on his performance, and it was clearly a bad "performance," but I'm still not convinced Kerry killed him in the debate. Kerry won the battle of image, yes. But the public is so inoculated to Bush's inability to speak that I'm not sure how much water that carries. We "know" that Bush is verbally inept. At what point do people stop caring?

    The question I have is, Were voters paying more attention to Bush's flustered demeanor, or to his substantive clashes with Kerry? I still say Bush came across well on the issues. He hit Kerry on Korea, he hit Kerry on the issue of allies, and he even corrected Kerry a couple times. Bush also seemed serious in a way that Kerry did not. It's about time that someone called the supposed diplomat on his stupid (and politically stupid) insults of Allawi, and the "window dressing" "coerced and bribed" allies. The man is playing politics a little too much here, and not only do I find it repulsive, I think it came back just a little bit to bite him in the ass.

    But, time will tell, eh?


Brit Hume (?) on Foxnews afterwards mentioned, and rightly so, that Bush looked small behind the podium whereas Kerry filled the entire TV screen. I think it is a combination of how a person looks and the message conveyed with looks being maybe 2/3rds and message 1/3rd. It is hard for a weak looking person to make an effective point and I think that is where Bush had problems.

(edited by evilwaldo on 1.10.04 1731)
Eddie Famous
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#75 Posted on 1.10.04 1726.22
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1729.02
    Originally posted by pieman
      Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Overall I call an even round, in that few will form or change an opinion on this one.


    Well, in our house you would be incorrect, Mr. Famous.


I imagine I would be incorrect in just about ANYONE's household or I'd be invited to more parties.

    Originally posted by pieman
    My wife was relatively undecided before last night. At about the half-way point, she threw up her hands and admitted that Bush was performing poorly. In fact, we thought he was acting at about a second or third grade level with some of his mannerisms and facial expressions. Put one in the Kerry column for my wife who was formerly undecided.


Then, as per my post, your wife is one of the few. I truly think that Kerry will have a better chance to swing voters when the focus gets to domestic policies.
Malarky
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#76 Posted on 1.10.04 1739.23
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1741.18
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
    I was crushed when W told the "widowed wife" story. Came off just like those stomach-churningly bogus yarns Gore told of 80 year old women begging him to save health care because they were eating cat food so they could afford prescriptions.

    Not well played, George.


Agreed. It was cringeworthy. And watching him trying to suppress his trademark smirk as he told said anecdote was even worse. That about said it all.
Teppan-Yaki
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#77 Posted on 1.10.04 1836.06
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1837.18
Just remember -- being the President is "hard work." And Mr. Kerry?

(image removed)

(edited by Teppan-Yaki on 1.10.04 1839)
SlipperyPete
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#78 Posted on 1.10.04 1932.40
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1933.01
When all the dust settles down I think the key moment of the debate will be Kerry's "global test" remark. Bush jumped on that one right away and they will probably pound the issue over and over until election day. Not to mention the fact that Kerry has contradicted himself on this issue in the past.

The responses from the two camps is also interesting, as the DNC released a video of nothing but Bush's face from the debate at various points where he was annoyed. The RNC released a video of Kerry's words from the debate. If you're running a campaign for a bronzed, botoxed Lurch and you decide to focus on style instead of substance, isn't that pretty well admitting that you have no substance to speak of?
Dahak
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#79 Posted on 1.10.04 1943.43
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1944.42
I am a Bush supporter but I would say that Kerry won last night. Not a big win but enough to tighten the race up.
But Kerry actually pissed me off more last night. With his,"I talked to Mark in Wisconsin. Mary in Florida. Scott in Iowa" crap. Gee what a shock that the important battleground states got mentioned. So Kerry doesn't care about you if you live in Vermont or Nebraska since he already knows how they will vote? A debate really isn't the time to pander.
AWArulz
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#80 Posted on 1.10.04 2015.05
Reposted on: 1.10.11 2016.18
I guess for me, in the final analysis, it was:

Kerry would only take pre-emptive action for any reason if it passed the 'Global test', which i can only interpret as being UN approval.

the President said he would act as needed to protect Americans.

I want a president who doesn't need permission from Jouques to take a leak. So, for me, that was the whole debate.

Plus, it's the only thing I woke up for. :-)
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