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Teppan-Yaki
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#41 Posted on 1.10.04 0819.17
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0820.45
With all due respect, Grimis, I don't know how you could say that Bush won far and away with the debate.

First off, where did John seem bitchy and whiny? IMO, that's very subjective. We're both biased on that. Secondly, I'd be as shocked as you when FNC says that Kerry won.

True -- I agree that Kerry looked at Jim more than he looked at the camera, but he was cool, calm and collected compared to the President, who looked ready to fling poop at Kerry sometimes.

Andrew Sullivan, btw, said it best: No president who has presided over Abu Ghraib should ever say he wants to put anyone on a leash. That's all. Stay tuned.
dwaters
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#42 Posted on 1.10.04 0819.19
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0820.48
Bush needs some kind of surgery to remove that STUPID SMIRK!!
His mouth hit the 45 degree mark at some points.

Kerry looked to be more prepared and definitely more articulate. He didn't come off as whiny as Gore. I wonder if he was really taking notes, or just trying to look like he was taking notes.

Bush's only reply to every question was "My opponent flip-flops" Yeah, and............?

I also liked the line about attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbor .

I would love to see Clinton debate GW Bush. That would be fun.
I miss Ross Perot--where is he now? The guy was a nut, but made for entertaining TV.


Barbwire Mike
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#43 Posted on 1.10.04 0824.41
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0824.46
    Originally posted by dwaters
    I also liked the line about attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbor .

It's a line that sounds good until it's looked at for a second. Did the President of Mexico have a big picture on his wall of Americans dying in a terrorist attack? Did Mexico ignore and mock the very processes that were being done to avert an impending US attack? Does Mexico refer to us as "The Great Satan" and cheer in the streets when tragedy befalls us?

In fact, the more I think about the more low-class I think that statement was.
Doc_whiskey
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#44 Posted on 1.10.04 0831.00
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0834.37
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
      Originally posted by dwaters
      I also liked the line about attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbor .

    It's a line that sounds good until it's looked at for a second. Did the President of Mexico have a big picture on his wall of Americans dying in a terrorist attack? Did Mexico ignore and mock the very processes that were being done to avert an impending US attack? Does Mexico refer to us as "The Great Satan" and cheer in the streets when tragedy befalls us?

    In fact, the more I think about the more low-class I think that statement was.


More to the point did Mexico financially support the Japanese, or offer training of Japanese soldiers like Iraq offered financial assistance to terrorist groups and harbored and trained terrorists.


As far as my opinion, I think Kerry surprised me. I thought Bush would crush him and I didnt think that happened. I think it was a draw, which I consider a loss for Bush because many were saying he had a chance to really put his foot on Kerry's throat and take an even larger lead in the polls. I still won't be voting for Kerry, but as a Bush supporter I hope Bush does a better job at the next two debates.
Grimis
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#45 Posted on 1.10.04 0846.48
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0846.58
    Originally posted by Nenz
    I'm not an expert on polls but wouldn't they be using the middle part of their data, ie the poll is somewhere from 58-31 to Kerry to 45-44 to Bush, so it's not just as easy that Bush won according to their data, in fact it's highly unlikely.
Well, it could be like you say in either direction. But the data is the data.
A Fan
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#46 Posted on 1.10.04 0904.23
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0904.23
And all data is crap. As someone who has a masters degree in Poli Sci and did debates in college, I'd give the nod to Kerry. Kerry was able to get to the point which I'm sure shocked people including the Republicans. Bush had some good moments, but it seemed like he was uncomfortable. Bush just couldn't get into a rythem at all. Even when he said Kerry forgot to mention Poland as an ally, it seemed almost childish. Bush just didn't bring his A game. There was no wink and smile, it was more like how dare you question me vibe. I'd als say Kerry won mainly due to the low expectations for him going in which ironically helped Bush in 2000.

I will agree though that Kerry could get hit by Republican attackk from the spin doctors in D.C. though. However, in the context of the debate, Kerry was calm which is really important in a debate. Bush looked lost on a number of times which surprised me. In 2000, Bush got away with the plain speak against Gore, but after 9/11 and the Iraqi war, I don't think its going to jive real well. Bush also opened himself up for attack to by having the wrong numbers on the Iraqi police training. The Spin Doctors will tell us who won by the afternoon even though most of the major media outlets thought Kerry won.

Kerry did what he needed to do, present himself next to the President as an equal, knock the flip-flop away from him and motivate the base. He is back in the game which will be tightening again. So, the Kerry's dead specch can now offically end.
Grimis
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#47 Posted on 1.10.04 0923.14
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0923.32
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    With all due respect, Grimis, I don't know how you could say that Bush won far and away with the debate.

    First off, where did John seem bitchy and whiny? IMO, that's very subjective. We're both biased on that.
Agreed that it is very subjective, but at the same time I am trying to be analytical about that fact because the American people are going to be subjective about it. That sounds weird, but when it comes down to it people that I speak with who are not involved in politics and don't pay attention that often say that they do not trust Kerry because of his mannerisms and his attitde. Sure, it's all anecdotal, but that body language manners. People realte more to Bush's "Aw Shucks" persona as opposed to Kerry's/

    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Secondly, I'd be as shocked as you when FNC says that Kerry won.
I saw that, but I also expected it. They are businesses trying to make a buck, and the closer the election is, the more viewers the networks have and the more papers publishers sell.
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    True -- I agree that Kerry looked at Jim more than he looked at the camera, but he was cool, calm and collected compared to the President, who looked ready to fling poop at Kerry sometimes.
Again, a subjective point. I thought Kerry looked frustrated and angered for most of the debate. Bush did look pissed off at times(especially when he was off camera) but again that resonates with his base.
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki


    Andrew Sullivan, btw, said it best: No president who has presided over Abu Ghraib should ever say he wants to put anyone on a leash.
Touche....

    Originally posted by A Fan
    And all data is crap. As someone who has a masters degree in Poli Sci and did debates in college, I'd give the nod to Kerry.
Don't you find those sentences diamterically opposed. If you were a student of political science, you would know that data is not crap.

    Originally posted by A Fan
    Kerry did what he needed to do, present himself next to the President as an equal, knock the flip-flop away from him and motivate the base.
He did? He contradicted himself as he spoke. How does that defeat the flip-flop arguement?

    Originally posted by A Fan
    He is back in the game which will be tightening again. So, the Kerry's dead specch can now offically end.
Kerry's eyes told the story; he's finished, and he knows it.
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#48 Posted on 1.10.04 0928.54
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0929.01
As someone who doesn't have a master's in Poli Sci but CAN spell "rhythm", I'd thought Kerry did a decent job IN CONTRAST TO Bush, who really, REALLY seemed put off on even having to participate. Not that I blame him, but he absolutely looked like just wanted to jump up on the podium and scream "LOOK MOTHERFUCKERS! I'M the GODDAMNED PRESIDENT, O-KAY! I SO don't even need to BE here right now, and this WHOLE THING is just a vehicle to make HIM (points to Kerry) look good at MY expense! I know it, HE knows it, YOU know it. (I'm George W. Bush, and I approve this message.)"
Leviathan
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#49 Posted on 1.10.04 0929.33
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0931.41
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    With all due respect, Grimis, I don't know how you could say that Bush won far and away with the debate.


I'd have to agree with Teppan-Yaki here. I won't pretend to be entirely unbiased, and I certainly don't agree with the Democrat bloggers who have been proclaiming a KO victory for Kerry, but I simply can't see how anyone watching the debate could have seen it as a decisive victory for Bush. I switched to Fox News for the reactions of their panel, and even William Kristol seemd to think that Kerry had come out somewhat better.

That said, Kerry didn't come out of it without exposing some weaknesses. Expect the GOP to target his factual inaccuracies (closure of the NY subways during the RNC?) and his lack of detail/waffling on the matter of "summits" and "allies".
Mayhem
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#50 Posted on 1.10.04 0929.42
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0932.11
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Basically, Bush beat the shit out of him last night.


Were we watching the same debate? While I'm hardcore Democrat, I wouldn't even say that Kerry beat the shit out of Bush. Bush just didn't look sharp to me, and at times neither did Kerry ... but to say that W beat the shit out of him is absurd, but that's what I'd expect from a Ravens fan

(edited by Mayhem on 1.10.04 0934)

(edited by Mayhem on 1.10.04 0941)
policus
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#51 Posted on 1.10.04 0956.25
Reposted on: 1.10.11 0956.49
If I had to choose a winner for the debate I'd say Kerry won hands down. I am a Bush supporter, but Kerry pants bush with style and manner for the debate. Bush edged him out on content, but IMO few American's really pay attention to what the candidates actually say and more attention to how they say it.

My real problem with Bush's performance is that he let Kerry slide on so many things. In the RNC Kerry's senate voting record was brought up time and time again but I can't recall bush siting any vote Kerry made before Bush was in office. On the whole "Real Coalition" exchange, why didn't bush call him out and say "Who?". What other country in the world has the resources to commit troops in Iraq. On the Afghanistan/Pakistan "outsourcing" thing, why didn't Bush say "um we have a treaty with Pakistan that no us troops will enter Pakistan so how does breaking that treaty make the us look better in the international world". Going to the table with North Korea. "President Clinton went to the table with North Korea and they broke their word, why should we think they won't continue to do so in the future"
The funniest one of all, and Giuliani pointed this out on FNC. in the beginning of the debate Kerry kept saying "Sadam isn't our enemy" a few times and at the end he said "Sadam is our enemy". I can't wait to see the commercial for this one.

Bush definitely didn't bring his A-game and it showed. It seemed like he was hesitant because he wanted to take off the gloves and attack Kerry but for some reason held back. I'm conjecturing that his annoyed look came because he was following some advice about this that he didn't agree with.
my advice to Bushy next debate is be yourself. Your from Texas so don't try to be a statesman. A statesman from Texas is a guy who carries a gun.






OMEGA
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#52 Posted on 1.10.04 1001.14
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1002.31
    Originally posted by dwaters
    I wonder if he was really taking notes, or just trying to look like he was taking notes.





According to the Daily Show, Kerry was writing " I am SO crushing this guy!"

VIVA DAILY SHOW~!

Anyways, I have to agree with what a lot of people are saying. While I don't think that anyone scored a KO or that anyone 'wiped the floor' with the other guy, I DO think Kerry came out of this for the better.

We all know how polarized the election is this year. Everyone already voting for Kerry insists he won. Everyone already voting for Bush insists he won.

So I guess the real agenda here was to try and get the undecideds. And, from what I hear, the undecideds have said that Kerry won last night.

However, the post-debate spin is just as (if not more) important than the actual debate. Most people thought Gore beat Bush last year, and then the next day, all I heard was "Did you see Gore sigh? Bush won, hands down!" So who knows?

Personally, I'm looking forward to the Cheney/Edwards debate. While I love Edwards and think he comes off great in these types of things, we all know that this is Cheney's strength. It'll definitley be interesting to see what happens on Tuesday.
Roy.
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#53 Posted on 1.10.04 1013.10
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1015.13
I actually got the shock of my life this morning when I got into work. My boss, a very strong conservative, told me, "Boy, the President didn't look very good last night." That's the first time I've even heard him say anything remotely negative about the president. Of course, he's just one man, but after talking with him today, he's starting to get worried about the election. Until today, he kept telling me that it was going to be Bush in a landslide. He's a retired Marine, a Vietnam Vet and I really do respect his opinions and views, even if I don't agree with every one of them.

Just something I found interesting. For a man like him to get worried (over one debate, no less!) puts things in a little bit of perspective.
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#54 Posted on 1.10.04 1037.19
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1037.25
Honestly, Bush looked terrible. The cutaway shots had him mumbling to himself, shuffling papers, looking slightly flustered, while Kerry just did his "presidential" stance while Bush was speaking, trying to look attentive and poised. It worked in his favour, no doubt an attempt to portray the image of strength and poise while Bush fumbled his way through another response.

Yes, Kerry used the phrase "I have a plan" way too often, without giving any information about his convenient "plan". I hate that word, it sounds desperate, as if if you only just elect him all the bad things will go away in the face of his "plan". Still, on the whole Kerry was much more eloquent, knowledgeable (yeah BIG surprise there right?) but he also won, in my opinion, the all-important image battle, as we all know this isn't so much a meaningful debate on the country's future as it is window-dressing for each party's respective candidate. Kerry was much calmer and in command of the facts, Bush was flustered most of the night. Kerry just plain looked more presidential.

My favourite line of the night was Bush's rejoinder to Kerry after the latter had pointed out Bush's taking his eyes off the ball after 9/11 in going after Saddam, to which Bush tersely and rather petulantly replied "I know AQ attacked us on 9/11......I know THAT." It sounded too much like the scolded child trying to salvage his pride by pointing out his knowledge of the glaringly obvious, and it played horribly for the cameras. That was the one point all night when you could sense he was on the edge of losing his cool, the acidity in his voice on the "THAT" was too hard to miss.

Overall, Bush blew it. This first debate's topic was chosen deliberately by the Bush campaign in return for giving the dems 3 debates, as it was on Bush's percieved strongest issue, national security/foreign policy. The consensus, media-wise, is at best a tie, at worst a Kerry romp. Not good for the GOP. Now we have 2 more debates to look forward to in which Bush must try to regain the upper hand on topics unrelated to national security/foreign policy, which doesn't bode well for him I'm afraid.

(edited by Malarky on 1.10.04 0848)
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#55 Posted on 1.10.04 1044.18
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1045.01
This is worth a link
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/polls/2004-09-30-debate-poll.htm

A couple highlights

Poll results are based on telephone interviews with 615 registered voters who watched the presidential debate September 30, 2004. Before the debate, 52% of voters supported Bush, while 44% supported Kerry.

2. Regardless of which candidate you happen to support, who do you think did the better job in the debate: John Kerry or George W. Bush?
Kerry Bush Neither Both/ equally No opinion
53 37 1 8 1

5. Next, regardless of which presidential candidate you support, please tell me if you think John Kerry or George W. Bush would better handle the situation in Iraq.
Kerry Bush Same No opinion
(Post-debate) 43 54 1 2
(Pre-debate) 40 54 2 4

6. Who do you trust more to handle the responsibilities of commander-in-chief of the military: John Kerry, or George W. Bush?
Kerry Bush Both/ equally
(Post-debate) 44 54 1
(Pre-debate) 42 55 *

B. Expressed himself more clearly
Kerry Bush Both/ equally Neither
60 32 7 1

D. Was more believable
Kerry Bush Both/ equally Neither No opinion
45 50 4 * 1

E. Was more likeable
Kerry Bush Both/ equally Neither No opinion
41 48 9 1 1

F. Demonstrated he is tough enough for the job
Kerry Bush Both/ equally Neither No opinion
37 54 8 1 *

Interesting numbers. Kerry was more of a debater, but less believable.


asteroidboy
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#56 Posted on 1.10.04 1044.19
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1045.21
Everyone I've talked to said Kerry looked bettter.

His most effective line was explaining the $87 million funding comment that Bush took out of context. Kerry said something along the lines of, I made a mistake in speaking about the bill, but Bush made a mistake about the war. Which one is worse? And that little attack balloon was burst.

That's what Kerry has to do. Bush & Rove's entire campaign is built on taking isolated senate votes and comments out of context to make him appear like a quibbler (which you could do for anyone). But it's worked. And Kerry hasn't proven to be a good enough campaigner to counterattack. So he's got to use the debates to debunk that image. He moved a few steps forward last night.

    Originally posted by Grimis
    - He looked like a whiny bitch for most of the debate
    - He laughed at very uncomfortable times
    - He started bitching about a rules violation at somepoint which was absolutely absurd.
    - Bush ran him into knots about Iraq. He tried on more than one occasion to indicate his decisiveness and steadfastness on his decision in Iraq. Bush mentioned his flip-flops, and Kerry immediately contradicted himself. It was almost absurd how many times Kerry contradicted his position during the debate not to say of all of the other times he has contradicted himself.


Grimis, nobody but a Republican operative, such as yourself, would have made such observations about Kerry.

The first three more accurately describe Bush and as far as the fourth, Bush certainly *tried* to run him into knots about Iraq, but isn't eloquent or seemingly knowedgeable enough to do so. Every time he tried to be agressive, his voice rose three octaves, he started stuttering and getting upset before lapsing back into one of his four stock phrases.

As that cartoonist said on CNN after the debate, no one wants to mention the elephant in the room. The President is dumb. And he can't articulate well.

(edited by asteroidboy on 1.10.04 1045)
SirBubNorm
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#57 Posted on 1.10.04 1056.34
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1057.55
As previously stated, I think it really depends on what you were looking for in the debate, or what you believed going in.

Personally, I turned off the TV at 9:20 because I couldn't stand the 2 on 1 thing (Kerry vs. Kerry and Bush vs. Kerry).

To me, Bush may have stuttered, Bush may have been slow in delivery, Bush may have made weird facial expressions, but at the end of the day, he at least could state his beliefs and I believed he would stand on them. Which is not the feeling I got from Kerry.

The line that keeps hitting me from Kerry (and I'm probably paraphrasing, but this is how it stuck)

I didn't say we'd be out of Iraq in 6 months. I said if my plan worked, we'd be out of Iraq in 6 months.

Way to exude confidence in yourself. :)
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#58 Posted on 1.10.04 1101.02
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1111.21
    Originally posted by Grimis
    The media(shockingly!) said that Kerry won the debate. The same media that said Gore won the debate where he sighed.



    I saw that, but I also expected it. They are businesses trying to make a buck, and the closer the election is, the more viewers the networks have and the more papers publishers sell.


Grimis, I'm just curious. These two quotes seem to suggest that when CBS and the other nets say Kerry won, it's That Damn Liberal Media in action. But when *Fox News* says Kerry won, it's a business "trying to make a buck". Am I reading that wrong?
DJ FrostyFreeze
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#59 Posted on 1.10.04 1101.36
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1111.21
(deleted by CRZ on 1.10.04 1130)
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#60 Posted on 1.10.04 1131.01
Reposted on: 1.10.11 1131.41
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Overall I call an even round, in that few will form or change an opinion on this one.


Well, in our house you would be incorrect, Mr. Famous. My wife was relatively undecided before last night. At about the half-way point, she threw up her hands and admitted that Bush was performing poorly. In fact, we thought he was acting at about a second or third grade level with some of his mannerisms and facial expressions. Put one in the Kerry column for my wife who was formerly undecided.
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