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PalpatineW
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#1 Posted on 30.9.04 2131.56
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2133.29
One word assessment: boring.

Kerry spent the whole night dissembling. He's got another plan! A better idea! He just won't tell you what it is.

Bush, meanwhile, fumbled way too many of the openings Kerry left him. Some of the pauses and silences made me cringe.

I don't think either candidate looked particularly good or bad. Kerry was of course eloquent, but empty. Bush had things to say, he just couldn't say them.

I suppose I give a minuscule edge to Bush on this one, if only for his effectively handling Kerry's Iraq positions. He hit him hard on "denigrating" our allies, and he hit him on his and Lockhart's IMO petty, immature comments re: Allawi. Kerry was unprepared in a way I didn't expect, and which I imagine stems from his confidence. He missed some small factual points on Korea, and left Poland off our list of allies. A surprising gaffe.

Thoughts?
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LionJeetSingh
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#2 Posted on 30.9.04 2136.48
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2138.04
Were we watching the same debate? Kerry seemed way more confident and attacked with full force.

The Dems win this round.
BWT
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#3 Posted on 30.9.04 2136.53
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2139.26
I think Kerry really killed him and the "colossal mistake" can be Kerry's battling cry. My favorite part was Bush saying "Maxed Missages." Overall pretty boring but you really got to be kidding if you think Bush won.
AWArulz
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#4 Posted on 30.9.04 2137.00
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2139.33
I guess I thought that:

1 - both candidates, but especially kerry, looked a little out of focus - which I thought was weird

2 - President Bush stayed on his message. Don't send mixed messages.

3 - Senator Kerry told us he'd do better, and that help was on the way, but not the how.

Kerry was all over Iraq, wasn't he?

I thought the president's key line was that he would fight the battles there so they don't come here.
Eddie Famous
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#5 Posted on 30.9.04 2138.38
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2140.07
Kerry also forgot Australia there.

I thought Kerry would have done better, but Bush was calming in a way that MOR-ers would like.

Kerry's Korea plan is pure idiocy, of course, but I don't think enough voters care about that issue.

Overall I call an even round, in that few will form or change an opinion on this one.
SeVen ™
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#6 Posted on 30.9.04 2139.46
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2141.47
Whoever won that debate is dependent on your political allegiance I suppose.
The Goon
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#7 Posted on 30.9.04 2147.34
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2148.18
I don't know how this was even called a debate. It was two guys giving their positions in the same room. What a horrible format.
asteroidboy
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#8 Posted on 30.9.04 2148.17
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2150.10
Bush came across as a petulant child who won a "Be President for a Day" contest at school and whined when he had to give up the big chair.

He was too small for his podium, compared to Kerry, and those cutaway shots of him were extremely unflattering. He should've learned from Gore in 2000 that if you scrunch up your face and shake your head when the other guy's talking, you look like an ass.

Just from looks, Kerry looked like the president. Bush looked like Dan Quayle after a Red Bull and vodka.
PalpatineW
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#9 Posted on 30.9.04 2150.03
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2150.22
    Originally posted by BWT
    I think Kerry really killed him and the "colossal mistake" can be Kerry's battling cry. My favorite part was Bush saying "Maxed Missages." Overall pretty boring but you really got to be kidding if you think Bush won.


Note the word "minuscule" in my endorsement. Also note my obvious biases.

Something I think we're missing here is context.

    Originally posted by LionJeetSingh
    Were we watching the same debate? Kerry seemed way more confident and attacked with full force.

    The Dems win this round.


Kerry is getting his head handed to him in a way that's not obvious from reading the "horserace" numbers.

Read these internals from the latest ABC poll: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/blog_9_29_04_0903.html

The way to score the debate is to look at what each man needed to do going in. Kerry needed to dispel his image as a flip-flopper, or drag Bush equally into the mud. Do you think he performed that forcefully? Do you think that John Kerry did enough to convince people who don't already hate the president? Conventional wisdom on this is that Kerry needed to win, and Bush could afford to run out the clock. I don't think Kerry scored enough points over the President.
CubsWoo
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#10 Posted on 30.9.04 2152.07
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2153.23
Basically, yes, pretty boring. Seemed more like a talking points forum than an actual debate.

My verdict? Draw, since neither of them really said anything I didn't already know. And they kept saying it.

And kept saying it.

And. Kept. Saying. It.

Both sides will declare victory. Both sides will be wrong.
Y2J 420
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#11 Posted on 30.9.04 2221.45
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2224.01
Kerry did shit in terms of displaying his talents to people...

I can say I have a plan to do things differently too...but if I don't tell what it is, I'm not helping myself...

Bush had the harder of the two positions during this debate, and then rest of the debates...he needs to justify his decisions, all Kerry has to do is question them...

I would've loved the question to Kerry, "How would you have handled 9/11?"

Kerry's flip-flopping past also nipped him in the butt a few times...he supports the war, then hates it...supported the bill established in the Clinton (ugh) era to create the sanctions on North Korea, and then says how the sanctions weren't enforced (not enforced during Clinton's term mind you)...Bush had nothing to do with that and even mentioned that...

U.S. media has always been pro-Liberal so of course Kerry will be made to look like the better of the two...
Big Bad
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#12 Posted on 30.9.04 2225.14
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2225.16
The real winners? THE FANS!


    The way to score the debate is to look at what each man needed to do going in. Kerry needed to dispel his image as a flip-flopper, or drag Bush equally into the mud. Do you think he performed that forcefully? Do you think that John Kerry did enough to convince people who don't already hate the president? Conventional wisdom on this is that Kerry needed to win, and Bush could afford to run out the clock. I don't think Kerry scored enough points over the President.


Another thing that Kerry needed to do was, frankly, make himself look presidential. I find it amazing that the election is about a month away, and that so many Americans still don't feel they know too much about Kerry. You can accuse Joe and Jane USA of being uninformed, but clearly some blame has to fall at the feet of Kerry's campaign team.

This debate, though, was a great chance for Kerry to really stand up and present the 'real' (BIG grain of salt) John Kerry, as opposed to the public persona created by the media and by the Bush campaign. In this respect, I thought he did a very good job. AsteroidBoy's comments about how both men looked and came off on TV may sound kind of pointless, but frankly, that's often been the biggest part of TV debates ever since Richard Nixon appeared unshaven and with a head-cold against JFK. I don't think there was a moment where Kerry really looked shaken, where Bush basically looked really pissed off until the two candidates got into that brief lovefest over each other's children --- one interesting fact was that Kerry praised Laura Bush and the Bush twins, whereas Bush only praised the Kerry kids and left out any compliments towards Ketchup Woman.

All in all, I'd have to say that Kerry wins this one simply by exceeding expectations. The time limit actually helped him big time, since it took his biggest weakness (his tendency to ramble) away from him.
LionJeetSingh
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#13 Posted on 30.9.04 2232.59
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2234.02
I thought Kerry did well addressing the flip flopping issue. He basically stated that when one realizes something is wrong, its not a flip-flip but rather rationalizing.

Bush seemed very unprepared. The only defence used was the same old "you can't expect to win the war on terror by changing positions" speech.

The president looked out of place judging by the frequent LONG pauses and taking a sip from an empty glass. I thought that was pretty funny.

eviljonhunt81
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#14 Posted on 30.9.04 2234.23
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2237.54
Iraq is gonna' help defend Israel?!?!?

Bush was defensive for the most part, testy, and was desperately trying to keep the "flip-flopper" label on Kerry, but I don't think it worked. While I was obviously never going to vote for Bush, I wasn't planning on voting for Kerry until now. I think he came across very well, and didn't say something as insane as Iraq is going to help defend Israel.
Y2J 420
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#15 Posted on 30.9.04 2235.43
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2238.41
No it's flip-flopping when you vote for something because you think it'll make you popular, and then when the majority of people view it the other way, you switch and degrade the thing you supported just a while before...

Kerry voted for the Patriot Act and was one of its biggest supporters and had a hand in drafting it...then when people felt it messed with their liberties, he came out questioned anyone that supported it and said there were a lot of loop holes in it...

Hey John, you supported it...that's not rationalizing, that's just saying whatever you can so you will be able to be Senator for another term...
Roy.
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#16 Posted on 30.9.04 2237.13
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2239.47
I agree that Bush's pauses were cringe-inducing. It's the way he speaks, I think. Somebody hammered it in his head to think before he speaks back in elementary school, and he still does it. Unfortunately, it makes him seem stupid and/or stupefied.

I also thought that Bush looked angry at some points, irritated at Kerry's words. Some of his reactions didn't look good. I think he needs to step away from stuff like that, because it could look like he was pissed off that somebody would dare "question" him. (I was watching CSPAN. They had split screen reaction on most of the time, while the networks didn't.)

As a side note, it was amusing to me to have both the candidates and the moderator on the screen at the same time. Whenever Jim asked a question to Kerry, he was looking at Bush, and vice versa. Of course, that's not true, but the camera placements made it look that way, and it distracted me for some reason.

I'd call it a draw, but according to the Republicans, Bush won, and according to the Democrats, Kerry won.
OMEGA
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#17 Posted on 30.9.04 2240.09
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2242.17
While I'm admitedly biased, I thought that Kerry did much better than I thought he would and Bush did much worse.
The Vile1
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#18 Posted on 30.9.04 2242.10
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2243.19
Did Kerry really say, "I will hunt them down and kill them"?
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#19 Posted on 30.9.04 2243.38
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2243.54
    Originally posted by Roy.
    I was watching CSPAN. They had split screen reaction on most of the time, while the networks didn't.


I was watching FOX news, but switched to CNN when it seemed that they were showing both candidates more often. Did the major networks do any of this?

Furthermore, has anyone ever heard Sen. Danforth called "Jack Danforth" before? It took me a minute to realize who the president was talking about.
asteroidboy
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#20 Posted on 30.9.04 2313.20
Reposted on: 30.9.11 2313.55
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    AsteroidBoy's comments about how both men looked and came off on TV may sound kind of pointless, but frankly, that's often been the biggest part of TV debates ever since Richard Nixon appeared unshaven and with a head-cold against JFK.


Personally, I think it IS pointless how they come across on TV. But for a lot of voters (like my grandmother who would invariably vote for the better looking candidate), little things like that matter.

The substance of their speeches can be argued by either side to say their guy won. But this is television. When has substance ever mattered?
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