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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Ex-Guardsman: Probe Gaps in Bush Service Register and log in to post!
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spf
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#1 Posted on 16.9.04 1600.39
Reposted on: 16.9.11 1600.46
Well, using the Grimis principle from the Swift Boat Vets whereby anyone who has comprable service is automatically given the benefit of the doubt when criticizing a presidential candidate, I am going to give Robert Strong the floor. Yahoo (news.yahoo.com)

    Originally posted by Yahoo Story
    A former Texas Air National Guard official who served at the same time as President Bush (news - web sites) says he believes the bigger story about gaps in Bush's service is being overlooked in disputes over the validity of certain Guard documents.

    "I think the public ought to be concerned about his preferential treatment getting in and whether he satisfied his commitment to the Air Guard. Those are the two fundamental questions," said Robert Strong, the administrative officer in charge of air operations ...


(edited by spf2119 on 16.9.04 1602)
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StaggerLee
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#2 Posted on 16.9.04 1605.08
Reposted on: 16.9.11 1605.11
How about focusing on something like, something that has happened in the past twenty years. Or, would that be detrimental to Kerry?

Either way, I am tired of this crap, talk some issues already. (that is for BOTH the candidates)
CRZ
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#3 Posted on 16.9.04 1608.30
Reposted on: 16.9.11 1609.15
Perhaps instead of naming principles after other users, you could tell us why YOU think this is important to the readers of this forum?

I hope it's not a "He posted this, so I'm posting THIS" scenario...because by taking the same tactic, you seem to lend credibility to an argument you (probably) didn't find credible in the first place.
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#4 Posted on 16.9.04 2050.08
Reposted on: 16.9.11 2051.37
Creditablity on in this forum, you are joking, right?
ges7184
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#5 Posted on 16.9.04 2142.58
Reposted on: 16.9.11 2143.08
I realize that the Kerry people want to fight back, but they would be much better served focusing on Bush's actual term in office than documents and service dating back to the early '70's. I just don't get it. If a person has no experience as President, then you do have to rely on other information to determine how one might perform in the Oval Office. But when you have four years of actual experience, why focus on anything else? I think Kerry has been suckered into fighting the wrong battle.
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#6 Posted on 16.9.04 2149.58
Reposted on: 16.9.11 2150.27
Does Mr. Strong have any (non-forged) evidence to present?
AWArulz
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#7 Posted on 16.9.04 2202.11
Reposted on: 16.9.11 2203.19
    Originally posted by Robert Strong
    "I think the public ought to be concerned about his preferential treatment getting in and whether he satisfied his commitment to the Air Guard. Those are the two fundamental questions," said Robert Strong, the administrative officer in charge of air operations


Aren't these the questions being raised by Dan Rather's little questionable documents? I am sure that Bush, like most rich boys, had a better shot at the Guard than less-rich boys. For god's sake, Everyone back then knew that it was a coup to get in the Gaurd because the Guard wasn't goin' to The Nam. Look, Dubya says he didn't have any preferential treatment, but face it: His daddy's a congressman and his granddaddy's a senator, right? Of course he got preferential treatment. He might not have asked for it, but there it was.

Regarding Robert Strong, Powerline has a story on him here:
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/007814.php

It's worth a look. a snippet

    Originally posted by Powerline

    Like many English professors, Strong has always been anti-Bush. At the same time, notwithstanding his claim to have served in the Texas Air National Guard, Strong admitted that he had never served with or even met Lt. Bush. He admitted further that Jerry Killlian had never discussed Lt. Bush with him. Strong acknowledged that he had no personal knowledge about Bushs service.



Sounds like Strong's got a bit of a negative slant on Dubya. But he's not on the list of contributers to Kerry.

Robert W Strong, (xxx) xxx-xxxx, , Dripping Springs, TX 78620

Google's, awesome, ain't it?






(edited by AWArulz on 16.9.04 2317)
The Thrill
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#8 Posted on 17.9.04 0613.25
Reposted on: 17.9.11 0613.43
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    For God's sake, Everyone back then knew that it was a coup to get in the Gaurd because the Guard wasn't goin' to The Nam.


I hate to contradict a vet, but I'm a little tired of the above dead wrong statement. (1800GoGuard.com)

More examples:

    Originally posted by the Ohio National Guard website's history section
    With the escalation of the Vietnam conflict, the Ohio Guard was again called upon to engage in combat upon foreign shores. Both the Ohio Army and Air National Guard deployed units to Southeast Asia to defend South Vietnam from communist aggression. The mission to support state authorities still continued during this time...


    Originally posted by the National Guard's site
    During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam.


    Originally posted by the Iowa National Guard's site
    On January 26, 1968, the 185th Tactical Fighter Group (TFG), Iowa Air National Guard, from Sioux City, was mobilized, together with the 174th Tactical Fighter Squadron (TFS), its subordinate unit. The 174th, along with three other Air National Guard fighter squadrons, flying F-100 aircraft, were ordered to Vietnam. The 174th TFS, codenamed "Bats," flew over 6,500 close air support and bombing/strafing missions from its base at Phu Cat. The performance of the 174th TFS earned the Presidential Unit Citation Award and the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award. Individuals were awarded 12 Silver Stars, 35 Distinguished Flying Crosses and 30 Bronze Stars. Other members of the 185th TFG were assigned as individuals throughout the Air Force. The Group returned to state control on May 28, 1969.

    The 2nd Battalion, 133rd Infantry (Mechanized), Iowa Army National Guard, was also mobilized during the Vietnam War. The battalion was part of the Selective Reserve Force (SRF). The "Second Mech, with units located at Sioux City, Le Mars, Sheldon, Cherokee, Ida Grove and Mapleton, was mobilized on May 13, 1968, assigned to the 69th Infantry Brigade (Kansas Army National Guard) and stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado. Although the battalion colors remained at Fort Carson, 264 officers and enlisted men were ordered to duty in Vietnam. Twelve soldiers of the battalion were killed and 76 were wounded in action. Members of the battalion received over 2,600 awards and decorations for their Vietnam service. The battalion returned to state control on December 13, 1969.


You get the idea...the Guard WAS there in Vietnam, and some of them came home in body bags, just like the full-timers. They ain't any less dead.



Grimis
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#9 Posted on 17.9.04 0631.23
Reposted on: 17.9.11 0631.44
But hey, I get a principle applied to me that has nothing to do with me. I rule!

Incidentally, I haven o problem with people looking into Bush's service. Of course, the President has signed the SF-180 and Kerry has not, so it's a little easier to scrutinize the records.
wmatistic
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#10 Posted on 17.9.04 0649.44
Reposted on: 17.9.11 0650.25
I know I've read somewhere this week that it actually wasn't a big wait to get into the guard if you could enter as an officer and fly. That they had no wait for those guys, only the people who just wanted a regular post and weren't qualified enough to do anything else. Anyone else confirm that?
AWArulz
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#11 Posted on 17.9.04 1219.01
Reposted on: 17.9.11 1219.34
    Originally posted by The Thrill
      Originally posted by AWArulz
      For God's sake, Everyone back then knew that it was a coup to get in the Guard because the Guard wasn't goin' to The Nam.


    I hate to contradict a vet, but I'm a little tired of the above dead wrong statement. (1800GoGuard.com)




Thrill, for goodness sake, I know Guardsmen did go to the Nam, but that was a miniscule percentage of them, friend. I was thinking about it myself as soon as I graduted, but thankfully, Vietnam ended.

I'm a patriotic guy, but I had no intention of going over there if I didn't have to. Like, I would have never dodged the draft or gone to Canada or whatever, but I would have taken any other steps I had to. Definitely.

    Originally posted by the guard's site

    Originally posted by the National Guard's site
    During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam.



Yeah, one of those 23,000 was President Bush. And 8700 went to the Nam? 2.59 MILLION Regulars served there, 1 half conscripts and 1/2 volunteers. I'd take those odds, hoss.

No offense to Dubya, guys. I'm not badmouthing him or any other guardsman (or woman). Vietnam was a sucky war and the people here treated the vets extra sucky. I saw that in the years I was in, less than a year after we pulled out.

Heck I woulda gone to college before being drafted! (and I had no intention of college at that time - shows what I knew then - funny how you end up doing just what you plan not to.

Seriously, though, Thrill, the Guard wasn't going, except for a very few. If they did go active, it was to watch a fort where the guys did deploy (Camp Irwin, for example). My plus-forty-year old WWII vet father was in and he never even thought about being deployed (he was busy guarding the port of Gary, Indiana one weekend a month.


    I know I've read somewhere this week that it actually wasn't a big wait to get into the guard if you could enter as an officer and fly. That they had no wait for those guys, only the people who just wanted a regular post and weren't qualified enough to do anything else. Anyone else confirm that?


Yep. I was going to train as a machinist in my senior year if I was going to go for a guard post because the unit my Dad was in needed machinists. Had that happened, I probably would have that skill, stayed at home, worked in the steel mills and be hapily unemployed today. My Brother in law, who is just a couple years older than me got 19 in 73 and went to machinist's apprentriceship and got deferred retired at age 50 this year from US Steel.

(edited by AWArulz on 17.9.04 1328)
spf
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#12 Posted on 17.9.04 1438.35
Reposted on: 17.9.11 1438.53
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Perhaps instead of naming principles after other users, you could tell us why YOU think this is important to the readers of this forum?

    I hope it's not a "He posted this, so I'm posting THIS" scenario...because by taking the same tactic, you seem to lend credibility to an argument you (probably) didn't find credible in the first place.

Why is this important? In the last 2 weeks there has been a flood of posts about Rathergate and issues with the National Guard story, which for better or for worse has become a major issue in the media. This is a perspective on the story which I felt was useful for people to consider, just as we have considered every single anti-Kerry position possible in the last couple of months. And judging by the fact that it has brought up to questioning what exactly was Bush trying to get into/get out of, I would say it's relevance has manifested itself.

That said, if you want to put a code in place to make the words "Vietnam" "National Guard" or "Swift Boat" all turn to "Blah blah blah" the way you and/or Guru did when "please believe it" was getting overused, I'd think it was a good idea. But as long as the topic "What did people do 30 years ago?" is somehow relevant enough to justify the amount of attention paid to it, then it should have all the sides presented.

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#13 Posted on 17.9.04 1445.09
Reposted on: 17.9.11 1446.32
I'm sorry, but the documents might be forged or might not, but how justified is it compared to Swift Water. So, CBS might have forged documents that even the person who said they might be forged states the documents are true. How is that a lie when all the stations had to carry third Swift Water Ads that turned about to be a total lie. I just think the Republicans spin doctors did a nice job.
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#14 Posted on 17.9.04 1446.23
Reposted on: 17.9.11 1447.06
    Originally posted by spf2119
    That said, if you want to put a code in place to make the words "Vietnam" "National Guard" or "Swift Boat" all turn to "Blah blah blah" the way you and/or Guru did when "please believe it" was getting overused, I'd think it was a good idea. But as long as the topic "What did people do 30 years ago?" is somehow relevant enough to justify the amount of attention paid to it, then it should have all the sides presented.


Hey as long as you recognize that my guy winds up looking better than your guy, we're ok.

Please Believe It.
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#15 Posted on 17.9.04 1733.38
Reposted on: 17.9.11 1734.24
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Please Believe It.
BLASPHEMY~!
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#16 Posted on 17.9.04 1839.57
Reposted on: 17.9.11 1840.14
    Originally posted by A Fan
    I'm sorry, but the documents might be forged or might not, but how justified is it compared to Swift Water. So, CBS might have forged documents that even the person who said they might be forged states the documents are true. How is that a lie when all the stations had to carry third Swift Water Ads that turned about to be a total lie. I just think the Republicans spin doctors did a nice job.


What do you mean, "Turned out to be aa total lie?" It's still he says/he says. There's no doubt Kerry lied when he said he was in Cambodia after being sent there by President Nixon in December of 1968. When he said it was "seared, seared' on his memory, that is. The swifties are still 200+ guys with one story and Kerry's 6 guys are on the other side.
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#17 Posted on 17.9.04 2334.04
Reposted on: 17.9.11 2334.11
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    The swifties are still 200+ guys with one story and Kerry's 6 guys are on the other side.
There are over 200 Swift Boat Veterans who say Kerry's version of events are false??
Grimis
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#18 Posted on 18.9.04 0744.56
Reposted on: 18.9.11 0745.30
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
    There are over 200 Swift Boat Veterans who say Kerry's version of events are false??
That was roughly the size of the original Swift Boat vets organization, long before they had commercials and widescaled media attention.
AWArulz
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#19 Posted on 18.9.04 1648.59
Reposted on: 18.9.11 1649.07
    Originally posted by DJ FrostyFreeze
      Originally posted by AWArulz
      The swifties are still 200+ guys with one story and Kerry's 6 guys are on the other side.
    There are over 200 Swift Boat Veterans who say Kerry's version of events are false??


Yeah, dude. That's what this story's about. You still have to choose whose words you believe, but that swift boat veterans for truth website has a signed affidavit from over 200 (I think it's closer to 250) guys who were in the same overall unit or in Kerry chain of command (and one or two from on the same boats) who dispute his claims, especially about the purple hearts and visits to Cambodia.

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#20 Posted on 20.9.04 1146.27
Reposted on: 20.9.11 1146.31
Looks like The Eye has a little egg on its face. CBS News now sez they can't authenticate the documents (CBSNews.com) about Bush's Texas National Guard service, and therefore shouldn't have used 'em.

More to come on tonight's CBS Evening News with Dan Rather, apparently. (Nice ratings booster, Black Rock.)
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