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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Egg on Dan Rather's face?
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SlipperyPete
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#1 Posted on 9.9.04 2352.37
Reposted on: 9.9.11 2352.38
Questions Arise About Authenticity of Newly Found Memos on Bush's Guard Service

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-1.html

Says bascially that the 60 Minutes story was based on memos attributed to a man who's family says didn't write them, and that the memos appear to have been written on a computer. Among other things like font and spacing, the memos had superscript "th", as in "187th", even though typewriters didn't do that.

If this turns out being true, I'm not sure who looks worse. Whoever typed these files up in Microsoft Word, or CBS for not figuring this out themselves?
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PalpatineW
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#2 Posted on 10.9.04 0024.16
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0024.23
This has been out in the proverbial blogosphere for a little while now, and I think this is ABC's second story on it. Certainly seems to be gaining traction.

A few more articles for the interested:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/596astgo.asp
http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2004/09/mainstream_medi.php
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12526_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forged

The third link has a bit of photo evidence, wherein the blogger copied the text of the memo into MS Word and compared it with the original.
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#3 Posted on 10.9.04 0118.28
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0119.42
If it is indeed a fake then 60 minutes deserves that egg and all the bad NY Times-style publicity to go with it. And this is coming from someone who IS NOT voting for Bush. For too long the media has been Vietnam whoring when they should have been presenting what plans Bush/Kerry has for the future. And it seem lately it is getting too easy for mainstream media to fall for something that is fake (i.e. Jane Fonda & John Kerry pic), I know getting the first scoop and ratings are important. But not at the sacrifice of professional journalism.
fuelinjected
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#4 Posted on 10.9.04 0125.14
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0125.49
Journalism is dead. And it's not the media's fault, its our fault. They wouldn't focus on this bullshit from 30 years ago if we didn't watch it, crave it, and take it.
Grimis
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#5 Posted on 10.9.04 0758.56
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0758.58
Dan Rather is a known partisan hack, recycling old news from the last campaign, and trying to prove it is a revelation, using information from a Kerry Campaign Vice-Chairman. Color me less than surprised...
DrDirt
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#6 Posted on 10.9.04 0817.30
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0817.44
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Journalism is dead. And it's not the media's fault, its our fault. They wouldn't focus on this bullshit from 30 years ago if we didn't watch it, crave it, and take it.


Add in the advent of 24 hour news channels. The competition to grab viewers and be first is unreal. However, that is no excuse for not fact and authenticity checking.

And journalism is alive, just not at the national level.
SlipperyPete
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#7 Posted on 10.9.04 1331.45
Reposted on: 10.9.11 1332.12
Now we have Dan Rather insisting that the memos are real, and the DNC chairman suggesting that Karl Rove is behind the forgeries. Come on, at least get your stories straight first. But if Rather's denial is the only word from CBS on this, I don't even know what to say. What a joke.
Grimis
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#8 Posted on 10.9.04 1353.14
Reposted on: 10.9.11 1353.40
Isn't it sad that the internet and blogosphere had it the documents nailed as forgeries the day after CBS ran the story? Instapundit has a number of stories about this.

(Edited because I done fucked up the tables fixing the link. -drjayphd)

(edited by drjayphd on 10.9.04 2245)
Lafayette
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#9 Posted on 10.9.04 2045.44
Reposted on: 10.9.11 2045.45
This is just another example of yellow journalism from the Mainstream Leftist Media.

I put up with it nearly everyday with my local paper. I've turned it into a sport picking out the hate Bush editorials on the front page, local, lifestyle and even SPORTS sections.

It's disgusting. Not the partisanship as that is actually traditional. I'm reading an excellent book detailing the pamphlets that went around during the period before the war of independence. Astonishingly, nothing has changed, even back then they were slinging mud and basically lying.

My problem are people who portray themselves as "standards of records" for the general public throwing out garbage like Rather did the other night. I mean did you see the expression on his face? The old fart looked plum crazy with rage and hatred for Bush.

Rather is well past retirement age. He's done a good job for his fellow Marxist travelers for a long time. However, he has just been outed. Time for him to hit the retirement home down in Beverly Hills.

He's washed up. Finished and it's his own damn fault.

In closing, I love the partisan squabbling if it is done intelligently, see John Adams, and has some wit to it. I DO NOT want that crap on my front page or anywhere other then the editorial spot designed for it.

The mainstream news complex, a longstanding tool for the DNC, is dead.

Funny thing is those fools don't even know it. That's the humor of it all.

Teppan-Yaki
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#10 Posted on 10.9.04 2156.55
Reposted on: 10.9.11 2157.32
Hate to burst y'alls bubble on this, but anything can look similar if you scale down something to look exactly the same, as is the case with the littlegreenfootballs.com experiment.

Aw hell -- I'll just link you all to The Daily Kos to see how the alleged debunking can be debunked.

I'm not saying that the CBS News documents are true, nor am I saying they're forgeries. However, just trying to throw out a counter to the whole "journalism sucks" issue. Journalism helps pay my bills, so I'm going to stick up for them here.

Lafayette
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#11 Posted on 10.9.04 2350.06
Reposted on: 10.9.11 2350.51
Stick up for them? Well over 80 percent of them are registered Democrats and show it in their work on a daily basis.

The citizens of America deserve better. There is no taking up for or excusing their treachory.

Period.

www.mrc.org
SlipperyPete
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#12 Posted on 11.9.04 0017.55
Reposted on: 11.9.11 0018.11
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Hate to burst y'alls bubble on this, but anything can look similar if you scale down something to look exactly the same
The technical issues with the memos are just half the story. The wife and children of the man who's being attributed to these memos say that he didn't write them, that he always spoke very highly of Bush. That alone should be enough to question it.
PalpatineW
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#13 Posted on 11.9.04 0141.36
Reposted on: 11.9.11 0141.47
You can link to Kos all you like, but he's one rather partisan guy in a sea of voices, and his first move in that post is to make some ad hominem attacks against his opponents, going so far as to suggest Charles Johnson of LGF is a racist. I'm inclined to take anything he says with a healthy grain of salt.

Instapundit, a Dukakis supporter in '84, has plenty on the story.

PowerLine has plenty, including a response to the Kos piece you cited.

ABC says (via Instapundit):

    Originally posted by ABC
    HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."

    Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".


Not to mention the bevy of assorted facts.



  • The denial of Killian's family.
  • The fact that the man behind this story, Ben Barnes, is now contradicting earlier statements he made under oath
  • Barnes works for the Kerry campaign
  • Rather's daughter has deep ties to Barnes and the Democratic party, being a prominent Dem. fundraiser
  • Rather himself made the keynote address at a 2001 Democratic fundraiser in Texas, and I think all this adds up to one large conflict of interest.





(edited by PalpatineW on 11.9.04 0255)
Teppan-Yaki
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#14 Posted on 11.9.04 1105.03
Reposted on: 11.9.11 1106.30
I don't deny that Kos is left-leaning at all -- but are you going to deny that other links, like the instapundit and LGF that were linked earlier, are right-leaning?

Didn't think so.

While I'm at it, I'll add the partisan views of Atrios and Salon, too.


(edited by Teppan-Yaki on 11.9.04 1111)
PalpatineW
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#15 Posted on 11.9.04 1627.31
Reposted on: 11.9.11 1627.42
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    I don't deny that Kos is left-leaning at all -- but are you going to deny that other links, like the instapundit and LGF that were linked earlier, are right-leaning?

    Didn't think so.

    While I'm at it, I'll add the partisan views of Atrios and Salon, too.


    (edited by Teppan-Yaki on 11.9.04 1111)


I don't object so much to Kos's political leanings as I do to the substance of his post, which is "my opponents are racists/wingnuts/etc."

Whatever their political leanings, the right-wing bloggers out there (those worth reading, in any event) have attacked this story on its merits, with typesetting experts, research into typewriters available, etc. All I get from Atrios and Salon is some profanity, and the assertion, once again, that anyone who would call Rather out on this is a "wingnut." There's a bit of irony here when those accused of "wingnuttery" are rational people, and the accusers are the ones essentially posting profanity-laced rants about the people on the other side of the debate.

Nowhere in any of your links do I see answers to the suspect credibility of both Barnes and Rather, and I think you'd have a tough time proving that Rather and Barnes are not partisans.

And, I would argue that Instapundit is not right-wing. If anything, he strikes me as a sort of Bush Democrat.

Rather than get into a pissing match on sources, we can just look at the facts.

Rather's Democrat bias has been established, unless you want to content that being the keynote speaker at a Dem. fundraiser is not proof that Rather endorses the Democratic party.

Barnes works for the Kerry campaign, and has been on record contradicting everything he's said this week.

According to Howard Kurts in the Washington post, Marcel Matley, the handwriting analyst, claims that a "60 Minutes" executive has asked him not to give interviews.

CBS' other two witnesses are Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges and his former assistant, Robert Strong, and both of these men are of the opinion that the documents are likely forgeries.

An expert being cited by the Globe, in a story misleadingly titled Authenticity backed on Bush documents claims the the Globe misrepresented his opinion in their article. Bill of INDCJournal has interviewed him here.

We have on the public record, now, more sources who believe they are forged than sources who believe they are not. These documents are photocopies, and even CBS' own expert witness has warned against determining the validity of a signature using photocopies. And yet the Globe chooses to report that the authenticity has been "backed." Talk about cherry-picking.

This is the "journalism" you want to stand up for? Biased reporters running stories brought to them with flimsy evidence from biased sources? We know next to nothing about these documents. Only that a handwriting expert has testified to the veracity of Lt. Col. Killian's signature on one of the memos. Otherwise, we have the assertions of Democrat operative Barnes and Democrat fundraiser Rather. Is one man's assertion enough to run a story? Is that journalism?

(edited by PalpatineW on 11.9.04 1730)
Teppan-Yaki
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#16 Posted on 11.9.04 1859.23
Reposted on: 11.9.11 1902.07
Palpatine:

Here's what I said earlier:

"I'm not saying that the CBS News documents are true, nor am I saying they're forgeries. However, just trying to throw out a counter to the whole "journalism sucks" issue. Journalism helps pay my bills, so I'm going to stick up for them here."

I appreciate you going out of your way to research this, but "they believe it's a forgery" and "it *is* a forgery* are two different things, no?

And go find all the instances where I've gone after FNC, by the way, if we're going to start pissing about biased news organizations, *left or right*.
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#17 Posted on 11.9.04 2029.39
Reposted on: 11.9.11 2029.49
I think the biggest detriment to CBS here is the fact that there is a very real case that the documents are forgeries, and they, as a news agency, are not reporting it. They had access to all of this information prior to running with the story, and it is funny that none of it found its way into the initial release.

Where was the journalistic even-handedness? Where was the comments from the wife and son the moment the story broke? It is not like these things are far out ideas - there is very real evidence that the memo was faked, but CBS chose to ignore that.

For everyone out there that claims that the "old" media isn't liberal biased, and is instead "corperate" biased, here is all the proof you should need. They came out with a story, deliverately skewed to attack Bush, and it has finally come back to bite them. The problem isn't that they presented the documents, the problem is that they didn't present the evidence to go along with them.

Yeah, I listen to talk radio and follow other "right wing" sources. But at the very least, they admit their bias and wear it proudly. When I watch something like 60 Minutes, I feel like I am being talked down to, and villified for being Republican. With the talk radio shows and Fox, at least I don't get that. I don't care if CBS is left leaning, I just want them to admit it for a change.

But I still long for an impartial media - it just doesn't exist anymore. And I think it is about damned time that got proven.

(edited by Pool-Boy on 11.9.04 1830)
Grimis
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#18 Posted on 12.9.04 0730.59
Reposted on: 12.9.11 0731.14
Headline in this morning's Baltimore Sun: Source for CBS now suspects memos are fake.

Checkmate
redsoxnation
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#19 Posted on 12.9.04 2156.22
Reposted on: 12.9.11 2159.04
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    But I still long for an impartial media - it just doesn't exist anymore.









      In American political history, when has an impartial media actually existed? Look through 19th century political campaigns, and what goes on today is pre-school compared to the media (or political campaigns) of the past. All media is biased in some manner, the only thing necessary is for the consumer/viewer to understand the bias and attempt to filter it out. That a large segment of society can't figure that out is the disturbing thing.
      The humorous thing about this story is that it is Dan 'We Here At CBS News won't tell you the story too early, we will check, double check, get our ducks in a row, and call Aunt Gertrude off the porch' Rather is the one who gets duped. If Dan was an eskimo, he would have been put on the floating piece of ice years ago.
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#20 Posted on 12.9.04 2224.45
Reposted on: 12.9.11 2225.39
This appears, to me, at least, to be a last ditch attempt for CBS to get some ratings. They smelled a scandal and jumped, deciding to take a risk to get some ratings. Instead, it came back to bite them in the ass.

Regardless, two weird things remain. First, why didn't the White House call the documents fake right away? It's not like they hold the media in very high regard. Secondly, USA Today also claimed to get copies of the memos, and they also have two memos that CBS did not mention. Very weird.
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