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Malarky
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#1 Posted on 9.9.04 1224.25
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1224.29
Judging by the comments of the head of the Russian military we saw a few days ago, namely that Russia would be justified in going after terrorists and terrorist bases "wherever they may be", should we expect to see Russia launch their own WoT?

It can't do much for world stability to have the world's two pre-eminent military powers (okay, I'm being too generous on Russia's part) launching multiple crusades around the world simutaneously.

Whaddya think?
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Pool-Boy
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#2 Posted on 9.9.04 1338.13
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1340.30
I say welcome aboard :). In fact, it is better if they are putting pressure on DIFFERENT places than we are. When he hit a cell, and they run, there is a good chance they will run to wherever the Russians are hitting. More coverage is good...

As long as there is communication, and the whole thing doesn't turn into a pissing contest, I think it is a great thing for the long run.
Grimis
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#3 Posted on 9.9.04 1349.11
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1350.24
    Originally posted by Malarky
    Whaddya think?
It's about time.
Malarky
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#4 Posted on 9.9.04 1355.29
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1357.10
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    I say welcome aboard :). In fact, it is better if they are putting pressure on DIFFERENT places than we are. When he hit a cell, and they run, there is a good chance they will run to wherever the Russians are hitting. More coverage is good...

    As long as there is communication, and the whole thing doesn't turn into a pissing contest, I think it is a great thing for the long run.


Hammer and anvil strategy? Sounds good, but there's just too many countries in too many theaters to contain them in such a way IMO.

I get the distinct dreaded feeling that in 100 years historians will look back on our current period and see us trying to rid oursevles of a beehive by smashing it open with a sledgehammer.
StaggerLee
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#5 Posted on 9.9.04 1509.20
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1510.39
I am glad they are on board. I am glad that somebody besides the USA and Israel finally have the testicular fortitude to do what is needed to try to rid the world of the terrorists.
Although, I Must say, hearing the Russians say they wont negotiate and hearing Putin go off about it, I seriously doubt they will be as kinds and gentle as the USA has in our efforts in Iraq.
Gugs
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#6 Posted on 9.9.04 1516.32
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1521.24
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    ...I seriously doubt they will be as kinds and gentle as the USA has in our efforts in Iraq.


Dear God, I hope you're joking.
StaggerLee
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#7 Posted on 9.9.04 1530.59
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1537.19
While we have been pretty good at blowing people and buildings up, I think we have shown great restraint in areas where people have hidden in Mosques and such. I realise we have bombed the shit out of Iraq, but am also quite sure there are targets we probably SHOULD have hit that we didnt because of religious ramifications.

Thats all I was getting at.
PalpatineW
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#8 Posted on 9.9.04 1538.08
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1538.27
    Originally posted by gugs
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      ...I seriously doubt they will be as kinds and gentle as the USA has in our efforts in Iraq.


    Dear God, I hope you're joking.


Do you think, or read?

The United States has resisted striking known enemies of ours because they are hiding in Mosques. al-Sadr could be dead now, but we didn't want to blow up a holy site.

The Russians, on the other hand, are much faster to the trigger. cf. Beslan, and the last time the rebels tried this in the movie theater.

I don't know where you get your ideas about supposed US brutality in Iraq (this seems to be the intent of your biting sarcasm), but you might do well to read some history, even recent history, of both the United States and the USSR/Russia. Compare this to Vietnam. There are on "free fire zones" in Iraq. There is no napalm. What we have are American boys getting killed in order to spare Iraqi lives/property. Iraqis are dying, of course. This is war, and that is unavoidable. But the US is taking the unprecedented step of trying to spare the lives of their enemies.

As for Russia, Russia is not only fighting the Chechens, they're apparently close to war with Georiga. [http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/08/24/saakashvili.shtml]

If you meant something else by your scoffing, I apologize in advance. But a familiarity with the facts tells me that not only is Stagger not kidding, but he's probably right, and is speaking from at least a semi-informed position.
Jaguar
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#9 Posted on 9.9.04 1612.20
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1614.55
I'd be all for this if there was any proof whatsoever that bombing the shit out of terrorists *worked*. Looking back over the past forty years...

The Vietnamese beat out the US using small force guerilla tactics.

The Afghans beat the Russians using small force guerilla tactics.

Russia has yet to pacify Chechnya.

Israel has yet to pacify the Palestinians.

You could make a case that the Brittish have managed to stamp out the Irish terrorists (for the time being).

Compared to these, current US involvement in Iraq looks very positive, as we are well on our way to disengaging ourselves from the country (which is the only way for us to 'win'). We are nowhere near the same amount of progress with Afghanistan however, and we've been there since 2001.

I'm pretty sure Israel has done a damn good job proving that their method of dealing with terrorism gets no results. They just blew up 14 Hamas operatives in Gaza the other day, but I bet you another Palestinian is going to blow themselves up in the middle of a bunch of Israelis within the next year.

-Jag

Which also brings up another question: Dick Cheney believes that we are at war, and that this is not a 'Police Action'. Israel has been killing Palestinians for twenty years with no end in sight. Is this really what we want for our country? Do you really believe that 14 dead Hamas operatives from an air strike will do more to stop terrorism than 14 Hamas operatives captured and sent to jail for the rest of their lives? I just don't see the logic. I'd rather die a martyr for my people than spend the rest of my life making license plates for my enemy. Thanks to the Israelis for making killing them seem like such an honorable thing to do.
spf
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#10 Posted on 9.9.04 1620.54
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1621.54
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    The United States has resisted striking known enemies of ours because they are hiding in Mosques. al-Sadr could be dead now, but we didn't want to blow up a holy site.

I think where you are ascribing some sort of humanitarian intent borne of sensitivity to this decision I see nothing but a purely strategic move, albeit one I think is quite wise. We have quite enough people who hate us there without blowing up the most holy shrine in Shia Islam and pissing off the whole damn population.
DrDirt
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#11 Posted on 9.9.04 1639.23
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1641.28
    Originally posted by spf2119
      Originally posted by PalpatineW
      The United States has resisted striking known enemies of ours because they are hiding in Mosques. al-Sadr could be dead now, but we didn't want to blow up a holy site.

    I think where you are ascribing some sort of humanitarian intent borne of sensitivity to this decision I see nothing but a purely strategic move, albeit one I think is quite wise. We have quite enough people who hate us there without blowing up the most holy shrine in Shia Islam and pissing off the whole damn population.


Look, everyone knows I have a lot of problems with "W" and what has happened in Iraq. However, we are Florence Nightengale compared to Russia and much of the rest of the world.
Nag
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#12 Posted on 9.9.04 1655.42
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1656.39
In wake of a tragedy like that, I say Russia should do what it has to do. I read somewhere, they put a 20 million dollar pricetag on Putin's head...WOW. If it does turn out to be "wherever they may be" how close is too close before the U.S. and Russia butt heads? Even the problems are similar, I don't see that being pretty, considering they are already ticked with the U.S. and U.K.

I will say this, IF they decide to act alone, I will not burn their flag, I will not burn their leader in effigy, I will not call for Putin's abdication of power, I will not spew anti-Russian rhetoric whereever I go. I will let history judge for itself. For some strange reason, the world will likely act the same way.

SKLOKAZOID
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#13 Posted on 9.9.04 1702.08
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1703.42
    Originally posted by Nag

    I will say this, IF they decide to act alone, I will not burn their flag, I will not burn their leader in effigy, I will not call for Putin's abdication of power, I will not spew anti-Russian rhetoric whereever I go. I will let history judge for itself. For some strange reason, the world will likely act the same way.




You're an American, and you're not a part of their political process.

It's up to the Russian citizens to decide if they agree with the way their government decides to retaliate. I'm sure they will have no problems going after the people behind the horrid acts, but if Russia used this as a means to start a different war before the job is finished, then they may protest, as they did here.

If they don't like the way their government decides to take action, it's their burden to bear. We're Americans, and what Russia does is something we citizens have little control over.

If Russia used this as a means to invade Saudi Arabia and accused it of currently being a biological and chemical weapons threat, I bet our current administration would have a real problem with that.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 9.9.04 1508)
StaggerLee
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#14 Posted on 9.9.04 1717.07
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1717.10
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I'd be all for this if there was any proof whatsoever that bombing the shit out of terrorists *worked*. Looking back over the past forty years...

    The Vietnamese beat out the US using small force guerilla tactics.

    The Afghans beat the Russians using small force guerilla tactics.

    Russia has yet to pacify Chechnya.

    Israel has yet to pacify the Palestinians.

    You could make a case that the Brittish have managed to stamp out the Irish terrorists (for the time being).

    Compared to these, current US involvement in Iraq looks very positive, as we are well on our way to disengaging ourselves from the country (which is the only way for us to 'win'). We are nowhere near the same amount of progress with Afghanistan however, and we've been there since 2001.

    I'm pretty sure Israel has done a damn good job proving that their method of dealing with terrorism gets no results. They just blew up 14 Hamas operatives in Gaza the other day, but I bet you another Palestinian is going to blow themselves up in the middle of a bunch of Israelis within the next year.

    -Jag

    Which also brings up another question: Dick Cheney believes that we are at war, and that this is not a 'Police Action'. Israel has been killing Palestinians for twenty years with no end in sight. Is this really what we want for our country? Do you really believe that 14 dead Hamas operatives from an air strike will do more to stop terrorism than 14 Hamas operatives captured and sent to jail for the rest of their lives? I just don't see the logic. I'd rather die a martyr for my people than spend the rest of my life making license plates for my enemy. Thanks to the Israelis for making killing them seem like such an honorable thing to do.



Is sitting by and letting people blow others up a better option? I believe that if you kill all you can, you are better off. Negotiations dont work. Giving them what they want in Israel isnt an option. So, what should be done? I say kill all of them that you can, whenever you can, where ever you can. But, that is just me.
Jaguar
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#15 Posted on 9.9.04 1727.21
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1729.01
I'm pretty sure I was talking about "Life imprisonment" as opposed to constant killing. Does that mean 'Sitting by and doing nothing' or 'Giving them what they want' to you?

I am really the only person who sees a middle ground between 'Killing Palestinian terrorists' and 'Surrendering to Palestinian terrorists'?

Out of all my examples, the Brittish are the only ones who have managed to qwell the violence. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was demolishing houses and airstrikes into Ireland that got them there.

-Jag
Malarky
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#16 Posted on 9.9.04 1807.37
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1808.38
That's right, the current IRA ceasefire/peace process was secured not through military might but by diplomatic finesse.

The British tried the other route in the 1960's in Ireland and the results weren't good. It basically was West Bank North for a while there.

By killing someone for their beliefs you only serve to make a martyr out of them, and for every martyr you make multiple new potential martyrs spring up, eager to earn their place in the history of their struggle. And when they have no other option, martyrdom and respect suddenly looks a lot better than to live a dishonourable and shameful life as an impotent, poverty-stricken refugee. (Their thinking, not mine. I love my creature comforts too much. =D )

We need a smarter WoT. The current direction leads us only to further escelation. Cut out their support from underneath them instead of justifying their actions by responding in kind.
Dahak
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#17 Posted on 9.9.04 1900.20
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1902.17
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I'm pretty sure I was talking about "Life imprisonment" as opposed to constant killing. Does that mean 'Sitting by and doing nothing' or 'Giving them what they want' to you?

    I am really the only person who sees a middle ground between 'Killing Palestinian terrorists' and 'Surrendering to Palestinian terrorists'?

    Out of all my examples, the Brittish are the only ones who have managed to qwell the violence. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was demolishing houses and airstrikes into Ireland that got them there.

    -Jag


Ah but are the Palestinians willing to compromise with Israel. Are they going to quit saying,"no Jews between me and the sea." Will all the countries that surround Israel acknowledge their right to exist?
Personally I think founding Israel was pretty stupid but that was over 50 years ago. There are a lot of Israelis who's Grandparents came over in the late 40's. The Israelis feel that it is their country.
Sure England treated Ireland like crap but not since Cromwell had their been an organized attempt to replace the Irish population.
PalpatineW
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#18 Posted on 9.9.04 1944.10
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1946.57
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I'm pretty sure I was talking about "Life imprisonment" as opposed to constant killing. Does that mean 'Sitting by and doing nothing' or 'Giving them what they want' to you?

    I am really the only person who sees a middle ground between 'Killing Palestinian terrorists' and 'Surrendering to Palestinian terrorists'?

    Out of all my examples, the Brittish are the only ones who have managed to qwell the violence. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was demolishing houses and airstrikes into Ireland that got them there.

    -Jag


Yes, life-imprisonment. Just walk on up to the armed resistance, ask them kindly to recognize your authority, and would you please put down the AK. Sure to work.
AWArulz
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#19 Posted on 9.9.04 2020.51
Reposted on: 9.9.11 2024.26
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I'm pretty sure I was talking about "Life imprisonment" as opposed to constant killing. Does that mean 'Sitting by and doing nothing' or 'Giving them what they want' to you?

    I am really the only person who sees a middle ground between 'Killing Palestinian terrorists' and 'Surrendering to Palestinian terrorists'?

    Out of all my examples, the Brittish are the only ones who have managed to qwell the violence. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was demolishing houses and airstrikes into Ireland that got them there.

    -Jag


Jag, here's what the response is to putting terrorists in jail:

They kidnap a few people, put 'em on a website and offer to kill 'em if the person isn't released. Or they kidnap a cruise ship and kill an old man in a wheelchair because their buds are not released. And if they ARE released, well, they become a despot and a leader of terroists. (Yassir Arafat, I am lookin' right at you).

Nah. Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out.

By the way, it wasn't airstrikes in Ulster, it was Bloody Sunday and a few years of other events. Yeah, it's calmed down now, but the terrorism went on for quite a few years.
Jaguar
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#20 Posted on 9.9.04 2142.46
Reposted on: 9.9.11 2143.48
AWA, how is that any different than what we have now?

And Palp, for years we have practiced capturing and jailing terrorists. It's what our police forces are for. I don't think you really expect the Army to start rolling tanks through suburban neighborhoods and launch airstrikes in the projects? No, in the US we send in the cops/SWAT/FBI.

-Jag
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