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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Associated Press sues, wins to get withheld info on W's National Guard stint Register and log in to post!
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Teppan-Yaki
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#1 Posted on 8.9.04 0823.17
Reposted on: 8.9.11 0829.02
    Originally posted by The Associated Press
    As written in this article by the Associated Press:

    By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON - Months after insisting it could find no more records of President Bush's Air National Guard service, the Defense Department has released more than two dozen pages of files, including Bush's report card for flight training and dates of his flights.

    The records, released under pressure of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The Associated Press, show Bush ranked in the middle of his 1969 flight training class and flew 336 hours for the Texas Air National Guard, mostly in the F-102A fighter.

    The Pentagon and Bush's campaign have claimed for months that all records detailing his fighter pilot career have been made public, but defense officials acknowledged Tuesday they had found two dozen new records detailing his training and flight logs after the AP sued and submitted new requests under the public records law.

    "Previous requests from other requesters for President Bush's Individual Flight Records did not lead to the discovery of these records because at the time President Bush left the service, flight records were subject to retention for only 24 months and we understood that neither the Air Force nor the Texas Air National Guard retained such records thereafter," the Pentagon told the AP.

    "Out of an abundance of caution," the government "searched a file that had been preserved in spite of this policy" and found the Bush records, the letter said. "The Department of Defense (news - web sites) regrets this oversight during the previous search efforts."

    Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Texas Air National Guard has become an issue in the presidential campaign as the candidates spar over who would make the best commander in chief. Supporters of Democratic nominee John Kerry (news - web sites), a decorated Vietnam combat veteran, have criticized Bush for serving stateside in the National Guard. Kerry's Republican critics claim Kerry did not deserve some of his five medals.

    A group called Texans for Truth planned to launch an ad this week in which a lieutenant colonel in the Alabama Air National Guard questions Bush's absence from his National Guard service in Montgomery, Ala. The group says it plans to spend about $100,000 to run the ad.

    The ad asks "Was George W. Bush AWOL in Alabama?" and implores: "Tell us whom you served with Mr. President."

    In the ad, Bob Mintz claims he served at the same air base and in the same unit as Bush in 1972 but never saw Bush there. "It would be impossible to be unseen in a unit of that size," Mintz says in the ad.

    Bush has said repeatedly he is proud of his Air National Guard service. As late as last week, White House spokesmen said the administration knew of no other records of Bush's military service.

    "These documents confirm that the president served honorably in the National Guard," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said Tuesday night.

    Democratic National Committee (news - web sites) communications director Jano Cabrera disagreed. "For months George Bush (news - web sites) told the nation that all his military records were public," he said. "Now we know why Bush was trying so hard to withhold these records. When his nation asked him to be on call against possible surprise attacks, Bush wasn't there."

    The newly released records show Bush, a lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, ranked No. 22 in a class of 53 pilots when he finished his flight training at Moody Air Force Base in Georgia in 1969.

    Over the next three years, he logged 326.4 hours as a pilot and an additional 9.9 hours as a co-pilot, mostly in the F-102A jet used to intercept enemy aircraft. Of the 278 hours he flew in the interceptor, about 77 hours were in the TF-102A, the two-seat trainer version of the one-seat fighter jet.

    The records show his last flight was in April 1972, which is consistent with pay records indicating Bush had a lapse of duty between April and October of that year. Bush has said he had permission to go to Alabama in 1972 to work on an unsuccessful Republican Senate campaign. Bush skipped a required medical exam that cost him his pilot's status in August of that year.

    Bush's 2000 campaign suggested the future president skipped his medical exam in part because the F-102A was nearly obsolete. Records show Bush's Texas unit flew the F-102A until 1974 and used the jets as part of an air defense drill during 1972.

    A six-month historical record of his 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, also turned over to the AP on Tuesday, shows some of the training Bush missed with his colleagues during that time.

    It showed the unit joined a "24-hour active alert mission to safeguard against surprise attack" in the southern United States beginning on Oct. 6, 1972, a mission for which Bush was not present, according to his pay records.

    Bush's lone service in October was outside Texas, presumably with an Alabama unit he had permission to train with in September, October and November 1972.

    As part of the mission, the 147th kept two F-102A jets the same type Bush flew before he was grounded on ready alert to be launched within five minutes' warning.

    The records also show Bush made a grade of 88 on total airmanship and a perfect 100 for flying without navigational instruments, operating a T-38 System and studying applied aerodynamics. Other scores ranged from 89 in flight planning to 98 in aviation physiology.

    The newly released records do not include any from five categories of documents Bush's commanders had been required to keep in response to the gaps in Bush's training in 1972 and 1973. For example, National Guard commanders were required to perform an investigation whenever any pilot skipped a medical exam and forward the results up the Air Force chain of command. No such documents have surfaced.



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Malarky
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#2 Posted on 8.9.04 0914.19
Reposted on: 8.9.11 0914.49
-lol-

How deliciously ironic. Wonder to what extent the corporate media will go to bury this story?
Grimis
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#3 Posted on 8.9.04 0924.55
Reposted on: 8.9.11 0925.31
    Originally posted by Malarky
    Wonder to what extent the corporate media will go to bury this story?
Kinda like they tried to bury the Swift Boat vets?

Incidentally, when is the Press going to sue to get Kerry's records?

(edited by Grimis on 8.9.04 1033)
OlFuzzyBastard
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#4 Posted on 8.9.04 1011.13
Reposted on: 8.9.11 1011.45
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Malarky
      Wonder to what extent the corporate media will go to bury this story?
    Kinda like they tried to bury the Swift Boat vets?


Yeah, no one heard a word about them. I'd love to tune into the same news as you do, Grimis.
Malarky
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#5 Posted on 8.9.04 1037.08
Reposted on: 8.9.11 1037.16
I can't tell whether you were being sarcastic or genuine in your last post Grimis.

It's interesting, however, that the corporate media goes to such lengths to disseminate Al Gore and Howard Dean during their more "boisterous" moments, yet makes no mention of George W. Bush proclaiming himself to be God's chosen in an apocalyptic battle against evil.

Hmmmm......

(edited by Malarky on 8.9.04 0840)
BOSsportsfan34
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#6 Posted on 8.9.04 1042.38
Reposted on: 8.9.11 1042.54
    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
      Originally posted by Grimis
        Originally posted by Malarky
        Wonder to what extent the corporate media will go to bury this story?
      Kinda like they tried to bury the Swift Boat vets?


    Yeah, no one heard a word about them. I'd love to tune into the same news as you do, Grimis.


I'm guessing Grimis was being sarcastic.

(edited by BOSsportsfan34 on 8.9.04 1143)
StaggerLee
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#7 Posted on 8.9.04 1243.35
Reposted on: 8.9.11 1244.20
    Originally posted by Malarky
    -lol-

    How deliciously ironic. Wonder to what extent the corporate media will go to bury this story?


I wonder when/if the press would sue to see Kerry and his wife's tax records. Or his first divorce.

All the new info shows is that he served, wasnt the worst pilot on the planet, and was discharged.

Something new maybe would have been nice.
Teppan-Yaki
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#8 Posted on 8.9.04 1245.04
Reposted on: 8.9.11 1246.16
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Malarky
      Wonder to what extent the corporate media will go to bury this story?
    Kinda like they tried to bury the Swift Boat vets?

    Incidentally, when is the Press going to sue to get Kerry's records?

    (edited by Grimis on 8.9.04 1033)


You've left out something, though, Grimis:

The AP sued under the FOIA because the Deparment of Defense said that there wasn't any more records for Dubya when there actually were.

Still celebrating the record deficit, G?
Pool-Boy
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#9 Posted on 8.9.04 1544.57
Reposted on: 8.9.11 1546.54
When we finally look to move on past Vietnam, the lefties drag us right back.

I don't care what happened it Vietnam. I care about what is happening today. The only reason I thought Kerry's record deserved even a moment of discussion was because he made is service a central issue in his campaign. So what if Bush missed some time in the Guard. So what if Kerry got a Purple Heart by blowing up a barrel of rice. How about talking about some damned issues for a change?
Dahak
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#10 Posted on 8.9.04 1858.19
Reposted on: 8.9.11 1859.03
Don't be crazy Pool Boy. If we talk about issues then people couldn't broadcast the party line.
Grimis
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#11 Posted on 9.9.04 0628.00
Reposted on: 9.9.11 0628.32
Incidentally, The Hill did a little research on this to prove(again) that the Democratic talking points on the Guard are in fact, bogus.

Maybe that is why leaders from the VFW and American Legion have recently endorsed the President for re-election.
Teppan-Yaki
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#12 Posted on 9.9.04 0845.11
Reposted on: 9.9.11 0846.37
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Incidentally, The Hill did a little research on this to prove(again) that the Democratic talking points on the Guard are in fact, bogus.

    Maybe that is why leaders from the VFW and American Legion have recently endorsed the President for re-election.


I hate to ask, but would you call this story and this story about Bush and TANG "bogus?"

My problem is not with the past -- my problem is that someone attacked someone's duty to America, especially when lives on both sides are being taken away in Iraq, and the President didn't lambast the Swift Boaters. If he denounced it right away, fine.

But he didn't...
Grimis
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#13 Posted on 9.9.04 0852.39
Reposted on: 9.9.11 0853.17
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    and the President didn't lambast the Swift Boaters. If he denounced it right away, fine.

    But he didn't...
Last time I checkced, he has said (multiple times) that Bush served honorable in Vietnam. And he has denouced all 527 ads(multiple times). So this is false.

Please note when and where John Kerry or his minions have lambasted critics of the President.
StaggerLee
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#14 Posted on 9.9.04 1128.37
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1129.03
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
      and the President didn't lambast the Swift Boaters. If he denounced it right away, fine.

      But he didn't...
    Last time I checkced, he has said (multiple times) that Bush served honorable in Vietnam. And he has denouced all 527 ads(multiple times). So this is false.

    Please note when and where John Kerry or his minions have lambasted critics of the President.


I think the fact that Kerry gained some support due to the 527s before he was the actual nominee is the reason he wont come out against them. There hasnt really been a LOT of the 527s against Bush lately. The thing that I find strange though, is the fact that Kerry seems to think that he is somehow above the normal, routine political tactics that have been used for decades. 527s come out and imply and sometimes outright say that he lied about most of his VietNam service, and his medals may be of questionably origins. And, Kerry goes balistic. Sending poor crippled people to the President begging him to stop the ads, which he had nothing to do with in the first place.

Bush stood and held his head high, took all the criticism and brushed it off, and kept focused on the task at hand. While Kerry seems to be sidetracked at every turn if something goes remotely against him.
Teppan-Yaki
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#15 Posted on 9.9.04 1611.34
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1611.59
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
      and the President didn't lambast the Swift Boaters. If he denounced it right away, fine.

      But he didn't...
    Last time I checkced, he has said (multiple times) that Bush served honorable in Vietnam. And he has denouced all 527 ads(multiple times). So this is false.

    Please note when and where John Kerry or his minions have lambasted critics of the President.


Out of curiosity, when did George W. Bush serve in Vietnam?

Albeit true that Bush has denounced all 527 ads (multiple times), it was after the fact of the Swift Boat ads. I don't hold much weight into that, Grimis.
Whitebacon
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#16 Posted on 9.9.04 1619.04
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1621.08
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
      Originally posted by Grimis
        Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
        and the President didn't lambast the Swift Boaters. If he denounced it right away, fine.

        But he didn't...
      Last time I checkced, he has said (multiple times) that Bush served honorable in Vietnam. And he has denouced all 527 ads(multiple times). So this is false.

      Please note when and where John Kerry or his minions have lambasted critics of the President.


    Out of curiosity, when did George W. Bush serve in Vietnam?

    Albeit true that Bush has denounced all 527 ads (multiple times), it was after the fact of the Swift Boat ads. I don't hold much weight into that, Grimis.


I think he mis-typed there, and meant Kerry.


Grimis
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#17 Posted on 10.9.04 0755.45
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0755.49
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Out of curiosity, when did George W. Bush serve in Vietnam?
He didn't. Who cares?
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Albeit true that Bush has denounced all 527 ads (multiple times), it was after the fact of the Swift Boat ads. I don't hold much weight into that, Grimis.
Don't you find it highly disengenous that Bush is being battered by Kerry's minions for not denoucing the 527s enough, while the left has spent over $100 million in 527 money against Bush.

That's why the Democrats are identifed as the party of hyporcisy.
Teppan-Yaki
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#18 Posted on 10.9.04 0827.00
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0827.05
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
      Out of curiosity, when did George W. Bush serve in Vietnam?
    He didn't. Who cares?
      Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
      Albeit true that Bush has denounced all 527 ads (multiple times), it was after the fact of the Swift Boat ads. I don't hold much weight into that, Grimis.
    Don't you find it highly disengenous that Bush is being battered by Kerry's minions for not denoucing the 527s enough, while the left has spent over $100 million in 527 money against Bush.

    That's why the Democrats are identifed as the party of hyporcisy.


Puh-lease; everyone knows both parties are hypocrites in one way or another.

I mean, Dick Cheney attacks John Kerry on national security -- yet Dick Cheney defers out of Vietnam duty. I hate bringing up the "V" word, but just trying to counterpoint the quote above.
SKLOKAZOID
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#19 Posted on 10.9.04 0920.22
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0920.42
    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    Puh-lease; everyone knows both parties are hypocrites in one way or another.

    I mean, Dick Cheney attacks John Kerry on national security -- yet Dick Cheney defers out of Vietnam duty. I hate bringing up the "V" word, but just trying to counterpoint the quote above.


I don't think what Cheney did in Vietnam necessarily qualifies or unqualifies him for National Security.

A better counterpoint would be that Dick Cheney personally nixed many weapons systems, confuses our enemies in Iraq with Al Qaeda, and is part of an administration that has mismanaged the human resources in our armed forces.

And, yeah, both parties are HUGE hypocrites.
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