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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Cheney: America will suffer another terrorist attack if we elect Kerry
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Grimis
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#21 Posted on 9.9.04 0847.13
Reposted on: 9.9.11 0847.46
Here is the actual quote:
    Originally posted by Vice-President Cheney
    Because if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again, that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind set if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts, and that we're not really at war. I think that would be a terrible mistake for us.
Not that press would intentially make a mountain out of a molehill or anything...
Malarky
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#22 Posted on 9.9.04 0849.36
Reposted on: 9.9.11 0850.02
Ah yes, a pre 9/11 mindset.....a time when the government didn't assume dictatorial powers under the guise of the cruelly misnamed Patriot Act. Wouldn't wanna go back there, no sir!

So depressing.....
Von Maestro
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#23 Posted on 9.9.04 0952.25
Reposted on: 9.9.11 0956.07
    Originally posted by Malarky
    Ah yes, a pre 9/11 mindset.....a time when the government didn't assume dictatorial powers under the guise of the cruelly misnamed Patriot Act. Wouldn't wanna go back there, no sir!

    So depressing.....


I so often hear this from the Left & I would really love an explanation.

In your own words, in what way has the Patriot Act allowed the government to assume dictatorial powers over American citizens?
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#24 Posted on 9.9.04 1056.35
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1056.35
    Originally posted by Von Maestro
      Originally posted by Malarky
      Ah yes, a pre 9/11 mindset.....a time when the government didn't assume dictatorial powers under the guise of the cruelly misnamed Patriot Act. Wouldn't wanna go back there, no sir!

      So depressing.....


    I so often hear this from the Left & I would really love an explanation.

    In your own words, in what way has the Patriot Act allowed the government to assume dictatorial powers over American citizens?


I wouldn't say dictatorial but we are no longer safe in our persons, specifically search and seizure and habeaus corpus.
Malarky
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#25 Posted on 9.9.04 1219.26
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1219.52
    Originally posted by Von Maestro
      Originally posted by Malarky
      Ah yes, a pre 9/11 mindset.....a time when the government didn't assume dictatorial powers under the guise of the cruelly misnamed Patriot Act. Wouldn't wanna go back there, no sir!

      So depressing.....


    I so often hear this from the Left & I would really love an explanation.

    In your own words, in what way has the Patriot Act allowed the government to assume dictatorial powers over American citizens?


I guess the idea of the government being allowed to search your home without your knowledge doesn't bother you.

I guess the idea of the government being able (and willing) to snoop on your correspondences, whatever the medium, without notifying you doesn't bother you.

I guess the idea of the term "terrorist" being expanded to cover any unlawful act committed by a citizen, thus making you an enemy combatant, thus meaning that you have no rights to due process as a citizen of the United States doesn't bother you.

History shows that whenever a government assumes powers it will USE those powers, and the slippery slope from using the act against genuine terrorists to using it on non-terrorist US citizens has already been crossed, as you may have heard in that infamous strip club owner incident.

Of course, that's all just leftish propoganda. Don't let it bother you.
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#26 Posted on 9.9.04 1245.08
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1245.23
    Originally posted by Malarky
    I guess the idea of the government being allowed to search your home without your knowledge doesn't bother you.

    I guess the idea of the government being able (and willing) to snoop on your correspondences, whatever the medium, without notifying you doesn't bother you.

    I guess the idea of the term "terrorist" being expanded to cover any unlawful act committed by a citizen, thus making you an enemy combatant, thus meaning that you have no rights to due process as a citizen of the United States doesn't bother you.

    History shows that whenever a government assumes powers it will USE those powers, and the slippery slope from using the act against genuine terrorists to using it on non-terrorist US citizens has already been crossed, as you may have heard in that infamous strip club owner incident.

    Of course, that's all just leftish propoganda. Don't let it bother you.
Oh, I didn't know you were talking about Canada...
Von Maestro
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#27 Posted on 9.9.04 1252.30
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1252.57
    Originally posted by Malarky
    Of course, that's all just leftish propoganda. Don't let it bother you.


Considering you just listed a bunch of stuff without providing any actual proof that this is what the Patriot Act allows, then yes, it does comes off as "just Leftist propoganda"...
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#28 Posted on 9.9.04 1403.56
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1404.39
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by Malarky
      I guess the idea of the government being allowed to search your home without your knowledge doesn't bother you.

      I guess the idea of the government being able (and willing) to snoop on your correspondences, whatever the medium, without notifying you doesn't bother you.

      I guess the idea of the term "terrorist" being expanded to cover any unlawful act committed by a citizen, thus making you an enemy combatant, thus meaning that you have no rights to due process as a citizen of the United States doesn't bother you.

      History shows that whenever a government assumes powers it will USE those powers, and the slippery slope from using the act against genuine terrorists to using it on non-terrorist US citizens has already been crossed, as you may have heard in that infamous strip club owner incident.

      Of course, that's all just leftish propoganda. Don't let it bother you.
    Oh, I didn't know you were talking about Canada...



Hey, it's not Canada that's turning itself into a police state.....(ducks)

But don't let facts get in the way of your ingrained biases.
dMr
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#29 Posted on 9.9.04 1409.14
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1410.48
    Originally posted by Von Maestro
      Originally posted by Malarky
      Of course, that's all just leftish propoganda. Don't let it bother you.


    Considering you just listed a bunch of stuff without providing any actual proof that this is what the Patriot Act allows, then yes, it does comes off as "just Leftist propoganda"...


OK then, here goes. In no particular order.

1. Section 213's reworking means that notification of searches can be delayed until after the conducting of the search if prior warning could be considered to have an 'adverse result'. Precisely what qualifies as 'adverse' is not defined, and in essence prior warning could ALWAYS be considered to potentially have an adverse effect to some extent, assuming the person under investigation is in fact guilty of something. While in this instance you would have to be told eventually if you had been searched, the act allows the period of delay to be indefinite.

2. Previously Section 214 had permitted pen registers and taps to be put in place where the person was the subject of an ongoing investigation into criminal activities. This was extended to also encompass those who were the subject of foreign intelligence investigations. Thats a good thing. Whats not so good is that the amendment also removed the 'probable cause' element from criminal cases.

3. Prior to the PATRIOT act the FBI required both probable cause AND a warrant to access private information such as library, video, and financial records. Modification of Section 215 now permits such access as long as the FBI certifies to a judge that the search is in the interests of protecting against terrorism. The judge has no power to reject this request. While this could have been done pre-PATRIOT when grand juries could subpoena such information, it can now be done in secret, with the person being investigated never knowing. To my mind ignorance ain't bliss in this instance.

4. Re-working of Section 218 states that wire taps and other surveillance techniques can now be conducted in secret, provided that foreign/terrorist intelligence gathering is a 'significant' rather than 'primary' part of the reason given. A variety of crimes, especially those which are drug related, are often considered to have a terrorist element, meaning that this reworking offers FAR greater leeway to the original requirement probable cause than was previously afforded. Not that it really matters anyway given that less than 0.1% of such applications made to the FISA court prior to 2001 were rejected.

5. Section 505 now permits investigation of personal records such as e-mail or telephone logs as well as financial records. This puppy doesn't even require you to be a suspect of criminal activity OR espionage. Orders for such investigations can now be made by FBI field officers (not just senior officials) and don't need the approval of a judge.

Criticisms can also be made regarding the amendments of section 411 to 421 which relate to immigrants (you originally asked about US citizens though so I'll spare you), and section 802's alteration which in theory could allow everyone from abortion protestors to Greenpeace members to be labelled as 'domestic terrorists' and thus become subject to anti-terrorism laws. Can't say's I buy into that one myself but the potential's there for abuse of the law anyway I guess.

For what its worth I don't see the PATRIOT Act as a right-wing/left-wing thing or a Republican/Democrat thing. Just a bad thing. I certainly don't buy into a lot of the Big Brother nonsense that gets banded about, but I find a lot of the amendments made in PATRIOT to be disturbing. I don't think it means everyone need worry that FBI agents will be scouring their homes the minute they pop out for milk, but the act does leave itself horribly open to abuse.
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#30 Posted on 9.9.04 1417.27
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1418.30
Thanks dMr, God knows i'm too lazy to post all that myself.

=)
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#31 Posted on 9.9.04 1417.40
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1418.48
So, what you are saying is, the FBI has the same powers now that your local police force has?

Well heck, we must be turning into a fascist police state then!!

Bring this up again when there is actual proof that people's rights are being unfairly stepped on. When we see 80 year old ladies being dragged out of their homes as "terrorists" just because they disagree with the government, then there is a problem. And what you described doesn't give the FBI nearly that kind of power...
dMr
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#32 Posted on 9.9.04 1443.02
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1444.59
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    So, what you are saying is, the FBI has the same powers now that your local police force has?

    Well heck, we must be turning into a fascist police state then


Uh, wrong. They require a search warrant which I can check prior to the search commencing before they can do anything. Regardless, I don't recall saying anything about the comparitive greatness of the UK laws. In actuallity our phone tapping laws are riddled with holes and I'd direct plenty of criticism at them also. Really, whats the need for the 'our countries better than yours' crap? How are UK laws even relevant to the PATRIOT Act? If your best defence is, 'its not as bad as your lot' then you're screwed from the outset.


    Bring this up again when there is actual proof that people's rights are being unfairly stepped on. When we see 80 year old ladies being dragged out of their homes as "terrorists" just because they disagree with the government, then there is a problem. And what you described doesn't give the FBI nearly that kind of power...


Proof will be exceedingly difficult to come by, if not impossible given that the individuals involved often have no idea that they have been searched or bugged, and the FBI refuses to disclose much of any information. And yes I know they can't in some cases in the interests of security, but it also means if they've tapped/searched someone guilty of no crime they don't have any explaining to do re why the tap/search was conducted in the first place.

And you DON'T think the FBI being able to tap your phone calls and search your house without reason AND without your knowledge is a bad thing? I'm usually of the 'hey if you ain't doing nothing wrong why worry?' school of thought, but the idea of someone going round MY house without damn good reason and without me being told really pisses me off.

I mean seriously, if the best defense of the PATRIOT act is "Your countries worse" backed up by "At least they ain't dragging old ladies out onto the street" then I worry for you. Its like me defending ANY economic move made in the UK by saying, "Hey its better than Sudan!" and "At least unemployment hasn't broken 50% yet!"


(edited by dMr on 9.9.04 2045)
Grimis
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#33 Posted on 9.9.04 1530.54
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1536.36
    Originally posted by Malarky
    But don't let facts get in the way of your ingrained biases.
When you say things like this, your name is most appropos.
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#34 Posted on 9.9.04 1537.26
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1538.17
To be honest, I never even looked at the flag next to your name. "Your local police force" was supposed to be a generic reference to any old police force OVER HERE. So it wasn't an "ours is better than yours" comment.

And yes, local cops can perform a search without a warrant, if they have probably cause.

And what the hell are you bitching about the Patriot Act for, anyway? Not like it affects you... I suppose I need to double check flags now, just to make sure that I am not replying to someone from another country complaining about our laws....
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#35 Posted on 9.9.04 1552.23
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1552.46
Since when can the police search my home without my consent and without presenting a warrant? They can't, and anything they find would be thrown out of court. Of course, until recently they could just hold you as an 'enemy combatant' and you'd never see the light of day again.

So hey, check my flag. I'm complaining about it, and I don't see anybody standing up to actually defend the Patriot Act or any of its clauses. Feel free. I'd love for you guys to go over point by point and show me with this damn thing is needed in our country.


    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    Bring this up again when there is actual proof that people's rights are being unfairly stepped on. When we see 80 year old ladies being dragged out of their homes as "terrorists" just because they disagree with the government, then there is a problem.


The Supreme court said those rights were being unfairly stepped on with their ruling on the holding of enemy combatants. But aside from that, do you really think that by the time they're dragging 80 year old ladies out of their homes, that they're going to leave *you* around to complain about it? You'll be in the Gulag along with everybody else.

By then it's already way too late.

-Jag
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#36 Posted on 9.9.04 1657.45
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1657.48
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    The Supreme court said those rights were being unfairly stepped on with their ruling on the holding of enemy combatants. But aside from that, do you really think that by the time they're dragging 80 year old ladies out of their homes, that they're going to leave *you* around to complain about it? You'll be in the Gulag along with everybody else.

    By then it's already way too late.


Right on there, chicken little.

This nation imprisoned Japanese people 60 years ago, and somehow... we survived. And, today, civil liberties are even stronger. Not to mention that the PATRIOT Act is nothing nearly so severe.

Back on topic, here's the LA Times editorial take (shockingly reasonable)

    Originally posted by LA Times
    Sens. Kerry and John Edwards have been criticizing President Bush's performance on terrorism since 9/11 and promising to do a better job at it if given the chance. In doing so, they surely mean to suggest that the risk of another terrorist attack will be greater if Bush and Cheney win the election. A vote for George W. Bush, in other words, is a vote for more terrorism. Or if Kerry and Edwards don't mean that, it's hard to know what they do mean.
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#37 Posted on 9.9.04 1718.46
Reposted on: 9.9.11 1720.01
I dislike this reasoning on both sides. The terrorists are going to do what they're going to do and I believe both sides will have egg on their faces if a terrorist attack happens on their watch.

I'm not worried about terrorist attacks that may or may not happen within the next 4 years - and it is possible that they could - I'm worried about terrorist attacks decades down the road as we lay the foundation now, and how our civil liberties will be effected.

If a terrorist attack will happen in the next month/year/2 years, it's probably in motion as we speak and has been for a while now.
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#38 Posted on 9.9.04 2002.01
Reposted on: 9.9.11 2002.01
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    This nation imprisoned Japanese people 60 years ago, and somehow... we survived. And, today, civil liberties are even stronger. Not to mention that the PATRIOT Act is nothing nearly so severe.

Yes, we survived... but that was a horrible war attrocity that the US government later apologized for. You're right on the Patriot Act not being as bad as that (I still don't like it, it gives the FBI too much snooping power), but saying the Patriot Act is better than the internment of Japanese-Americans in WWII doesn't make the law good or right.
SeVen ™
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#39 Posted on 10.9.04 0131.17
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0131.32
Things may not be bad now, but what about your children? Or their children? We are giving up things that would have set off a second Civil War 50 years ago! The potential for fuckery is too great. I guess it doesn't matter to people until it is their door being kicked in because their name had a flag when they bought a DVD with their credit card. Already there has been too many mistaken identities snafus and bad investigation resulting in American missing weeks, months off their life. I know a lot of people don't care as long as it is not them. Most of my generation is filled with selfish egomaniacs who are convinced though years of Disney and Nintendo that they are their own Gods.
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#40 Posted on 10.9.04 0753.28
Reposted on: 10.9.11 0753.31
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    So, what you are saying is, the FBI has the same powers now that your local police force has?

    Well heck, we must be turning into a fascist police state then!!

    Bring this up again when there is actual proof that people's rights are being unfairly stepped on. When we see 80 year old ladies being dragged out of their homes as "terrorists" just because they disagree with the government, then there is a problem. And what you described doesn't give the FBI nearly that kind of power...


considering it was just discovered in the last few months that the FBI has been withholding evidence on almost every case they have been involved with on their infamous "I drive" i dont know how easy it will be to get information for you. for those of you who dont know the last 8 years of the FBI a supervisor has left out portions of reports given to courts across the US. this recently turned up 20 new pages of evidence that was held from the defensive team of timothy mcvey. i dont know about you, but i would rather have judges of the law decide what evidence is fit for a case, not someone from the FBI.
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