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|Y!: ||#21 Posted on 1.9.04 0918.11 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 0919.03
| Who IS more uncomfortable in the shower, the gay man or the straight man? |
I'd say the gay man, because I know if *I* were in the shower with a naked woman I found myself attracted to, I'd quite poosibly have a difficult time, uh, concealing my, uh, feelings, and carrying on like it was perfectly normal.
If I were in the shower with a gay man he could want my body all day and night and all I'd be thinking about is "did I rinse all of the shampoo out of my hair".
I'm just sayin', is all.
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|#22 Posted on 1.9.04 0919.24 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 0919.39
Originally posted by Lise
The problem with gays in the military isn't that people don't think they can do the job. It really doesn't have anything to do with the gay individuals themselves. It has to do with how having having an openly gay individual changes how individuals and groups will think and perform in a military setting. When this does happen (and I think that it will) military decorum will be drastically disrupted for a period of time.
I'm not disagreeing with the idea that decorum as you put it, would be affected by the presence of openly gay men, but wouldn't refusal to admit gays because of that amount to pandering to bigotry? Effectively, its not the actions of the gay men that would cause this change, but the reactions of those around them.
Equally if we lived in a world where the military consisted only of people of a certain race/home state/political affiliation, there would be disruption if the rules were changed. Thats not to say that failure to enact saidchange is right though.
Originally posted by Pool Boy
I have to second those thoughts. There is a reason we have men's and women's bathrooms. It is about modesty. You do not expose yourself to a potential "mate." It introduces an aspect of sexuality into an otherwise platonic relationship
It may just be me, but I wouldn't think twice about it. Any added embarassment I would have about showering with women would stem more from the fact that I might find them attractive rather than vice versa. If I didn't find them attractive I wouldn't give two hoots about what they saw. Equally if I happened to be in the shower with a guy who was privately passing judgement on me (positive or negative) I wouldn't give a damn. At the end of the day it ain't hurting me.
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|#23 Posted on 1.9.04 1225.26 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 1229.02
Originally posted by PalpatineW
No it doesn't. It assumes they're gay people. People are different. Men and women, gays and straights, etc. Would you have a problem with co-ed showers?
No. and especially not in combat. What do I care who sees me naked? What's going to happen then?
However, I'd be more willing to separate straight men and women then straight men and gay men because I've yet to hear the overwhelming amount of stories of gay men sexually harassing straight men.
Originally posted by Pool-Boy
I have to second those thoughts. There is a reason we have men's and women's bathrooms. It is about modesty. You do not expose yourself to a potential "mate." It introduces an aspect of sexuality into an otherwise platonic relationship.
You've never been sexually attracted to a non-nude woman?
If you're in combat and this gay man or straight woman is willing to die along side you, isn't that enough? If you catch them gawking at you in the shower, tell them to stop and respect your space. Kinda like how straight guys keep looking straight ahead when they're in the urinal? If they respect you enough to die with you, I'm sure they'll stop staring at your junk. If they don't, that's the same as a man sexually harassing a woman and it should be reprimanded.
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|#24 Posted on 1.9.04 1335.46 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 1338.36
| Jeez- so now having women run around naked should be ok because "Well, you are sexually attracted to them ANYWAY when they are clothed, so..."|
And yeah, I have probably been in a locker room with a gay man before. And yeah, I didn't know it. And that is the best way to handle it. Sure, I think gays can be in the military, but I think it is better for everyone involved that during their term, their sexuality is kept under wraps - for that very reason. Ignorance is bliss.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't women given their own showers in the military generally? The reason we separate women and men in these situations is because of sex and modesty. It isn't practical to do the same for gays - so for things like the military, I support a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
In reality, well, from personal experience, I used to run cross country and one of the guys was gay. And you know what? He had the decency to leave when the straight guys were changing, and we afforded him the same courtesy.
I don't understand why wanting to hang on to a sense of decency while the world is changing makes me "such a homophobe." I don't want to change in a locker room with a gay man not only because I am not comfortable with it, but also out of respect for him.
Society, at least civilized society, only exists when people follow a certain set of moral standards. It starts with saying please and thank you, goes up to men shouldn't hit women all the way up to don't murder anyone. Instead of prattling on about how gays should be accepted, how about taking that next step? I DO accept gays in society. I am just trying to apply to them the same moral code I would apply to any other human in my society. A big one is, you don't flaunt your naked body in front of people who might be attracted to members of your sex. That USED to mean just women, but that has to apply to gay men too now, as they are accepted in society.
You claim that you wouldn't have a problem with this or that... and whether or not I believe you or not, it isn't about you. It is about people in general, and people need codes of conduct to get along with one another. I am not about to throw that book out the window just because you think it should be for gays. Maybe it should be amended here and there, but those rules apply.
But then, I am probably just a dinosaur. I am a sexist bastard who has the gall to open doors for women (whether I know them or not) in this feminist world, and I am a clear homophobe who believes that gay and straight men should be afforded privacy and not be made to strip in front of the other. Oh well, where is my noose? I'm a ready to be hanged...
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|AIM: || ||#25 Posted on 1.9.04 1354.05 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 1358.47
| Pool Boy, you mention codes of conduct. It would seem to me that one of the most basic codes of conduct in civilized society, the one that says "never attempt to do anything sexually with someone who wants no part of your advances" would do fine to cover that situation.|
And as for why women get their own areas, I would say it's more for their safety and well being. The concept of having an entire room full of naked straight guys would likely be quite intimidating to most naked women. If you're intimidated by one or two gay guys, who unless they are positively insane and suicidal really are likely not to want to be talking about their preferences or acting on them in any way in that situation, then there's a problem of perception there.
Of course, I wonder how much of the problem straight guys often have with having gay guys around stems from the male ego at work. In the words of a gay roommate of mine "dude, I really have no interest in seeing you naked, and if I do, it's not going to do much for me."
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|#26 Posted on 1.9.04 1907.32 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 1907.33
| I have no problem with gays getting married. There I said it. I am a Christian as well. Marriage especially in America has become a joke. It irks me that people keep screaming about the sanctity of marriage being violated. Well, that is odd, especially when you can get a divorce over the Internet. People, famous and otherwise can get drunk and coked up and have a 5 minute wedding with an Elvis impersonator and 3 days later get it annulled when they sober up. And it will be like it never happened.|
People get married for the most asinine reasons, and divorced over the most trivial thing. Why deny gays from the numbing hell that is marriage? But I do have a problem with the people pushing the Gay Agenda where it is not wanted. That is those, who push their beliefs on everyone else. But that would be the same for anything someone believed in and tries to force on me.
As for the showering thing, don't you think it is very vain to think that all gay men want to cop your joint? When I was a teenager working at Pizza Hut one of the delivery guys was openly gay. We use to joke and make fun of him a lot (we was teenagers) and he would joke back. But one time I told him; "I am scared to have to close the store with you alone, you may try to make a move on me," I was joking when I said that but what he said next surprised the hell out of me. He said; "Seven, no offense but you are the ugliest mother fucker in St. Louis, no way in hell I would ever try to come on to you, even if you walked in with a pink jumpsuit with barrettes in your hair." Everyone was laughing at me but I realized how egotistical I must have sounded. This guy is gay so of course that means he wants to sleep with me. Well, I am not gay but I will admit I was a little miffed that this asshole didn't think I was just a little attractive.
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|#27 Posted on 1.9.04 2312.56 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 2316.17
| Well, I really can't add much more to what I already said than my opinions have nothing at all to do with ego. It has to do with decorum.|
And I don't know how many times I have to say that I DONT think every gay man wants to jump my bones.
I do also disagree that women are given their own lockerrooms and such for their own "safety and well-being." That convention has been around a lot longer than that relatively modern ideal. Women and men get that kind of privacy because it is inappropriate and unseemly to see a member of the opposite sex, who is not your spouse, in that state without explicit approval.
I really don't understand why you can't grasp the fact that somethings are not as simple as "you hate gays" or you don't. This is not an ego trip, or a homophobic thing. I don't think all gays will want to sleep with me upon seeing me nude (though who is to say one won't? They are still men, and most straight guys I know would be turned on by just about any naked woman they saw - just the nature of men).
I guess my point is, I have no problem if you disagree with the way I think things should be, but to twist it and portray my opinion as an ego-trip, or some gay-bashing ideal is just wrong. There is more than one way to "accept" gays in society, and your way isn't always the right way.
As far as gay marriage goes - hell, I don't have a clue. I hate the fact that the government is involved in marriage in the first place. Gays want to get married? No one is stopping them from exchanging vows. But as to having the government SANCTION it, I oppose that, because I would just assume they stop sanctioning any marriages. I don't think sanctioning even more marriages is taking our policy in the right direction at all. I'd much rather see the government butt-out of marriage all together.
(edited by Pool-Boy on 1.9.04 2114)
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|Y!: ||#28 Posted on 1.9.04 2338.20 |
Reposted on: 1.9.11 2338.20
Originally posted by fuelinjected
Originally posted by AWARulz
And regarding the military, I was IN the military and don't have a problem with people who are homosexual in the military - but I don't want to know about it. Here's the reason: as a guy, I have to shower with, lay in a hole with, pull on and in many other situations, be in extremely close contact with, other people, mostly of the same gender - although, admittedly, not as exclusive as it was when I was in. I don't care to shower with someone I am not married to who might be checking out my fine booty. Nor do I think those kinds of sexual tensions are condusive to military discipline and honor.
So you DO have a problem with homosexuality. You immediately associate homosexuals with perverts. What do you care if a gay man or a straight man sees your penis? What's the gay man going to do that the straight man won't? Is he going to try and bang you? What business is it of yours what goes on in his mind?
(edited by fuelinjected on 31.8.04 1929)
I also wouldn't want to shower with a woman, because of the sexual tension that might exist between us, whether it is on her part or my part, if we're to work together and fight together. I don't want to have to worry about the sexual tension - and ergo, my statement regarding not wanting someone who might be sexually attracted to me to see me naked... unless, of course, I was married to that person.
No, I am not worried about them sexually assaulting me - as I would not be afraid of a sexual assault from a woman. (in addition to knowing that the great majority of everyone, including homosexuals, are not into sexual assault, I am 6'5" and the last time I was in a position to use a group shower room I was in shape). My concern is the sexual tension and the problems that brings in a military unit, as I stated.
An additional concern with males and male homosexuals is that I must assume that male homosexuals are just as frequently excited by the gender they find exciting as I am by women. Were I to shower with a woman person naked, I am pretty sure I would be hard pressed (no pun intended) to repress my feelings and my excitement. I suspect most males share this trait. So I doubt that it has been somehow excised from the male homosexual's humanity.
Does that make sense? Perhaps not, but it's how I think, anyway. As I said, I am surely somewhat parochial.
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