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28.12.07 0621
The 7 - Football - Mike Williams ruled ineligible for season
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JayJayDean
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#1 Posted on 26.8.04 1541.20
Reposted on: 26.8.11 1541.22
Williams relieved to have resolution

What a load of crap. They should let him in the NFL. I wonder if he could go up north.

(edited by JayJayDean on 26.8.04 1342)
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bash91
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#2 Posted on 26.8.04 1816.45
Reposted on: 26.8.11 1816.51
This is one of the really, really, really rare times where I'll agree with the NCAA and say that they made the right decision. (I feel unclean after saying that, but I digress.) I don't think that there is any doubt that Williams received the kind of extra benefit that the NCAA has always penalized when he spent that month at a pre-draft camp. The NCAA has always penalized athletes for that kind of benefit, and this case is no different. If it had just been the agent, the trip to the Caribbean, and assorted other perks associated with the money he was expected to earn, he probably would have been reinstated with a 1 or 2 game suspension had everything been repaid. But, when he accepted benefits that can't be easily quantified or repaid and aren't available to other student-athletes, he sealed his own fate.

Realistically, Williams never had a leg to stand on in this case. Aside from sportswriters who love to froth at the mouth about things like this, the only ones I can see believing Williams would be reinstated are Trojans fans or those who still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. While we can, and should, criticize the NCAA for a lot of things like Jeremy Bloom, Rick Neuheisel, the organizational hypocrisy, etc..., I really think they got this one right

Tim
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#3 Posted on 26.8.04 1835.51
Reposted on: 26.8.11 1836.00
This is just a really bad situation for everybody. The NCAA(for once)upheld its rules. It sucks for Williams that he got stuck in the middle, but there is a reason he was the only player who left before he was eligible under the old rules of his own fruition(not counting Clarett).

I suppose he could play out the year in the CFL(I mean for god's sake, if Andre Rison can play in Toronto, Williams can play in the league too) but I'd take out some insurance just he case he got injured.

At the same time, would a CFL team take him as a rental for the rest of the year?
JayJayDean
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#4 Posted on 26.8.04 2047.53
Reposted on: 26.8.11 2048.05
    Originally posted by bash91
    Aside from sportswriters who love to froth at the mouth about things like this, the only ones I can see believing Williams would be reinstated are Trojans fans or those who still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. While we can, and should, criticize the NCAA for a lot of things like Jeremy Bloom, Rick Neuheisel, the organizational hypocrisy, etc..., I really think they got this one right

    Tim


As a Washington Husky fan, let me dispel your thought that USC fans would be the only ones who think Williams should be back. The stink of the situation is that Mike Williams did NOTHING WRONG. All NCAA players were told they could apply for the draft based on the initial ruling in the Clarett case. The NCAA SHOULD HAVE said at that point, that anyone who applies will not be reinstated. It would have been a black-and-white issue at that point. The NCAA did nothing. Mike Williams applied for the draft, hired an agent, and worked out in anticipation for the draft (among other things, including his vacation).

The Clarett ruling was overturned, so Mike Williams was declared ineligible for the draft. The NCAA SHOULD HAVE said, at that point, you can or you can't come back. Period. Make a definite ruling and stick by it. Instead? Nothing. So Mike Williams, who presumably could have played in Canada or kept working out while being funded by his agent, INSTEAD releases the agent and pays back all his pre-draft-related expenses, and enrolls in summer school to preserve his eligibility. When does the NCAA tell him he's not eligible to play? TWO DAYS before USC's opener against Virginia Tech. Brav-o, NCAA.

This isn't exactly a practical scenario, but if you worked at, say, the Post Office, and the only way you could apply for a promotion was to complete quit your original position with NO CHANCE of getting it back, you would want to be 100% sure you would actually RECEIVE the promotion, right? Well, what if they Post Office repealed the rule, meaning that under no circumstances were you in danger of not being able to keep your lower job if you applied for the better one? You are rightfully excited, so you go ahead and apply for the better job, only to find out a couple of days later that they have reinstated the previous rule, AND are applying it to anyone who went for the promotion with the understanding that their job would NOT be in jeopardy, therefore YOU'RE FIIIIIIIRED! Wouldn't you be flamong pissed off about it? Isn't that essentially what happened to Mike Williams here?

    Originally posted by Grimis
    At the same time, would a CFL team take him as a rental for the rest of the year?


Hmmm. A 6'5", 230 lb, pass-catching freak? Surely no CFL team would want HIM for a chance to win the Grey Cup.
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#5 Posted on 26.8.04 2150.31
Reposted on: 26.8.11 2150.47
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    All NCAA players were told they could apply for the draft based on the initial ruling in the Clarett case. The NCAA SHOULD HAVE said at that point, that anyone who applies will not be reinstated.
Allegedy, Williams was told that unofficially before he decided to go into the draft. During tonight's ESPN game I think Boomer or somebody there alluded to it when they talked about it in the studio.
bash91
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#6 Posted on 26.8.04 2206.41
Reposted on: 26.8.11 2206.50
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    As a Washington Husky fan, let me dispel your thought that USC fans would be the only ones who think Williams should be back. The stink of the situation is that Mike Williams did NOTHING WRONG. All NCAA players were told they could apply for the draft based on the initial ruling in the Clarett case. The NCAA SHOULD HAVE said at that point, that anyone who applies will not be reinstated. It would have been a black-and-white issue at that point. The NCAA did nothing. Mike Williams applied for the draft, hired an agent, and worked out in anticipation for the draft (among other things, including his vacation).


No, the stink of it is that Mike Williams DID do something wrong. He accepted benefits that were not repayable and gave him an unfair competetive advantage. Once he did that, game over. The NCAA did nothing wrong, Mike Williams did. As I said earlier, if he hadn't spent a month at a draft camp, I really believe Mike Williams would be practicing and preparing for USC's second or third game

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    The Clarett ruling was overturned, so Mike Williams was declared ineligible for the draft. The NCAA SHOULD HAVE said, at that point, you can or you can't come back. Period. Make a definite ruling and stick by it. Instead? Nothing. So Mike Williams, who presumably could have played in Canada or kept working out while being funded by his agent, INSTEAD releases the agent and pays back all his pre-draft-related expenses, and enrolls in summer school to preserve his eligibility. When does the NCAA tell him he's not eligible to play? TWO DAYS before USC's opener against Virginia Tech. Brav-o, NCAA.


No, bravo Mike Williams. The NCAA could do nothing until Mike Williams and USC applied for reinstatement. If they had asked immediately after the Clarett decision, the answer would have been no because William's wouldn't have been academically eligible. In order for the case to even be considered, Williams HAD TO release his agent and repay as much as he could as well as enroll in summer school to REGAIN his academic eligibility. When does Mike Williams and USC apply for reinstatement? About 2 weeks before the season opener. And then they have the audacity to complain about how long the process is taking? Brav-o, Mike Williams and USC.

Again, the fault here lies with Mike Williams, not the NCAA. Quite simply, it isn't the fault of the NCAA that Mike Williams dropped out of school, hired an agent, went on vacation to the Caribbean, and spent time working out for the draft. Williams knew that the case was in litigation and that the Clarett decision could be overturned. Based on what we know from the way the NCAA has handled basketball players declaring for the draft, Williams knew, or should have known, that he was jeopardizing any chance of reinstatement when he hired an agent.

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    This isn't exactly a practical scenario, but if you worked at, say, the Post Office, and the only way you could apply for a promotion was to complete quit your original position with NO CHANCE of getting it back, you would want to be 100% sure you would actually RECEIVE the promotion, right? Well, what if they Post Office repealed the rule, meaning that under no circumstances were you in danger of not being able to keep your lower job if you applied for the better one? You are rightfully excited, so you go ahead and apply for the better job, only to find out a couple of days later that they have reinstated the previous rule, AND are applying it to anyone who went for the promotion with the understanding that their job would NOT be in jeopardy, therefore YOU'RE FIIIIIIIRED! Wouldn't you be flamong pissed off about it? Isn't that essentially what happened to Mike Williams here?


No, because you left out the part about KNOWING that the case WAS NOT SETTLED. If the case had been fully adjudicated, your scenario might be more persuasive. But, as it stands, it doesn't work because the issue was not settled. The NCAA didn't arbitrarily change the rules to mess with Mike Williams and USC. They simply enforced the rules that were on the books that Mike Williams KNOWINGLY violated. Right now, the only person or organization that Mike Williams, USC, sportswriters, Trojans fans, and others should be "flaming pissed off" at is Mike Williams. He made a choice and now he doesn't want to live with the consequences. WAAAH!

Tim

(edited by bash91 on 26.8.04 2307)
brick
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#7 Posted on 27.8.04 0854.28
Reposted on: 27.8.11 0855.15
The only people Mike Williams has to blame are himself and the NFL.

The NFL after the initial ruling sent out letters stating that they were opening their doors to underclassmen and specifically contacted Williams. Then when they went back to court and got a favorable ruling recinded that offer to underclassmen leaving Williams in the lurch.

If Williams wanted he could sue the NFL, but by the time the lawsuit was heard he most likely would be a NFL player and most likely wouldn't want to be suing his employer.

If Williams had been smart he would have covered his bases knowing that the NFL was going to appeal and not hired an agent, or taken any monies, trips, ect... and stayed in school.

I would have liked the NCAA to let him back in, but they tend to adhere strickly to the letter of the law, so Im not surprised.
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#8 Posted on 27.8.04 0945.44
Reposted on: 27.8.11 0945.48
It seems to me that Mike Williams took a chance, gambled and lost. I'd have more sympathy for him if he would have stayed in school, but his decisions were what lead to this situation.

{i.e. what Tim said--well put!}
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#9 Posted on 27.8.04 1012.05
Reposted on: 27.8.11 1012.18

So will he ever be able to play in the NFL? ... If he goes to Canada, plays a couple of years and then comes back, can he try out at a camp and a free agent?
MARTYEWR
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#10 Posted on 27.8.04 1057.26
Reposted on: 27.8.11 1058.58
Ottawa has his CFL rights, but I doubt he'll do much up here if he goes. He's HUGE for a CFL receiver, and unless he's incredibly fast (since most big receivers bomb out up here in Canada, believe it or not), he won't do anything noteworthy.

On that note, though, I feel bad for the guy because, unlike Clarett, he doesn't come across as a jerk. Hopefully, he winds up panning out okay in the future whereever he goes.
brick
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#11 Posted on 27.8.04 1524.17
Reposted on: 27.8.11 1526.14
    Originally posted by Mayhem

    So will he ever be able to play in the NFL? ... If he goes to Canada, plays a couple of years and then comes back, can he try out at a camp and a free agent?


Both he and Clarret will be in next years draft, although their stock will have slipped due to missing one and two years of football respectively. By the time the draft roles around they both will have had 3 years since leaving college, there is no requirement to have played 3 years of football.
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#12 Posted on 27.8.04 1553.03
Reposted on: 27.8.11 1553.22
Three years since leaving High School, not college.

-Jag
ges7184
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#13 Posted on 27.8.04 1727.37
Reposted on: 27.8.11 1729.01
    Originally posted by MARTYEWR
    Ottawa has his CFL rights, but I doubt he'll do much up here if he goes. He's HUGE for a CFL receiver, and unless he's incredibly fast (since most big receivers bomb out up here in Canada, believe it or not), he won't do anything noteworthy.

    On that note, though, I feel bad for the guy because, unlike Clarett, he doesn't come across as a jerk. Hopefully, he winds up panning out okay in the future whereever he goes.


I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that a guy who is supposedly a can't miss prospect for the NFL would bomb out in the CFL. My guess would be that if a big receiver is passed over by the NFL, and ends up in the CFL, it's probably because he wasn't very good to begin with. And that would be the reason they bomb in the CFL as well, not their size itself.
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#14 Posted on 28.8.04 0755.56
Reposted on: 28.8.11 0755.57
    Originally posted by brick
    Both he and Clarret will be in next years draft, although their stock will have slipped due to missing one and two years of football respectively. By the time the draft roles around they both will have had 3 years since leaving college, there is no requirement to have played 3 years of football.


I have yet to see anyone speculate that Mike Williams will be anything other than a top ten pick in the '05 draft, which is exactly where he was projected to go in the '04 draft. If the guy stays in shape and has a good combine he should still be up there.

This brings up an interesting question (to me, anyway). Let's say your the NEXT Mike Williams, and you have two 90+ catch seasons as a freshman and sophomore. If Mike Williams ends up being a top ten pick and his sitting out a year does NOT hurt his draft stock, would you consider just sitting out after your sophomore year knowing you can sponge off your agent and workout and still be a high draft pick a year later? Why wouldn't you at least CONSIDER it?

(If you LOVED football, obviously you'd choose to play, but I could see some guys, ESPECIALLY running backs, choosing to save their bodies for a year and dropping out of school.)

(edited by JayJayDean on 28.8.04 0556)
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#15 Posted on 28.8.04 1922.20
Reposted on: 28.8.11 1923.03
    Originally posted by ges7184
      Originally posted by MARTYEWR
      Ottawa has his CFL rights, but I doubt he'll do much up here if he goes. He's HUGE for a CFL receiver, and unless he's incredibly fast (since most big receivers bomb out up here in Canada, believe it or not), he won't do anything noteworthy.

      On that note, though, I feel bad for the guy because, unlike Clarett, he doesn't come across as a jerk. Hopefully, he winds up panning out okay in the future whereever he goes.


    I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that a guy who is supposedly a can't miss prospect for the NFL would bomb out in the CFL. My guess would be that if a big receiver is passed over by the NFL, and ends up in the CFL, it's probably because he wasn't very good to begin with. And that would be the reason they bomb in the CFL as well, not their size itself.


I'm not sure how much coverage Tennessee (where you're located) gets of the CFL (besides the Memphis Mad Dogs era) but bigger receivers have not done that well since the tight end position stopped being used on a regular basis in the late 1980s, and even before then there haven't been too many. The CFL style of game is dependent on smaller players in most positions (receivers included), because of the larger field that they can take advantage of. The NFL game is a power game in comparison, and Williams is perfect for that. On top of that, Williams has never played the Canadian style of game in his life, and while both are similar, there's a lot of subtle difference that cause difficulties to the average player coming from the States who's learning the game for the first time (larger field, fewer downs which mean requirement of deeper routes, etc.) How fast does Williams run anyway?

I'm not knocking the guy; in fact, I feel sorry for him, but if I had to predict anything, he'd do average in the CFL. Although I'd like him to do well since my team, as I said, has his CFL rights.
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#16 Posted on 29.8.04 0222.29
Reposted on: 29.8.11 0223.16
From April: http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/7241638


    TAMPA, Fla. (April 8, 2004) -- I attended Mike Williams' workout and sat with four other scouts at the finish line on his 40-yard dash. The clocks will be varied on his 40 time as they ranged from 4.57 to 4.60. As a result, most people feel he ran a time in the high 4.5s.

    Williams' short shuttle time was 4.30, he had a 37-inch vertical and a 10-foot-1 long jump. He was measured at 6-4 1/2 and 228 pounds, which is nine pounds lighter than he was 10 days ago. He's gotten lean and has been on a strict diet since he left Southern Cal.





Dutchie
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#17 Posted on 29.8.04 1906.27
Reposted on: 29.8.11 1907.49
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    ...Let's say your the NEXT Mike Williams, and you have two 90+ catch seasons as a freshman and sophomore. If Mike Williams ends up being a top ten pick and his sitting out a year does NOT hurt his draft stock, would you consider just sitting out after your sophomore year knowing you can sponge off your agent and workout and still be a high draft pick a year later? Why wouldn't you at least CONSIDER it?

    (If you LOVED football, obviously you'd choose to play, but I could see some guys, ESPECIALLY running backs, choosing to save their bodies for a year and dropping out of school.)...


It's definitely going to open up a can of worms for the NFL and their draft rules, but IMHO only, I can't foresee sitting out a year or two benefitting anyone other than Mike Williams and possibly Maurice Clarret. Right now, they're pretty big, maybe household names, because they're the first challenging the draft rules. Let's say that now there's a RB coming in, Larry Runner, who has a fantastic 2004 freshman year. His 2005 sophomore year is even better. It's not spectacular, he's not really a Heisman candidate, but he's good and helps his team pretty big. Larry has an injury near the end of his 2005 season - nothing serious, he tweaks his knee on a cut. Larry gets worried and thinks that maybe he won't be so lucky next time. Looking at the lucrative NFL paychecks, but realizing he's not eligible after this season, Larry decides not to play football as a junior, instead just working out and training for the combines. In 2006, Larry isn't part of the team. His team is able to somewhat rebound, but their new RB is noticeably *not* Larry Runner.

Larry's theoretically going to be off the competitive football field from December 2005/January 2006 until June/July/August 2007. There's no doubt he can keep honing his physical athleticism, but what about those football skills that need to be honed? There's also a chance that Larry Runner won't stay in the minds of most scouts/fans/teams during his long offseason, particularly if there are another crop of guys at his same position who *are* playing during that 2006 season and who are doing really well. It might also give Larry the reputation of not fully being a team player. And wouldn't this point out to pro teams that Larry already has a penchant for giving up on his team and sitting out so he can get his way (i.e., a future case for holding out)?

Another concern raised in this is that all-important scholarship. If Larry decides to quit playing football, maybe he would still be able to stay on some sort of scholarship somehow for that last year. But if Larry leaves school alltogether, he's wasting one of those precious 85 slots that could have been used for someone who was going to stay, help the team, and get an education for more than 2 years. If I understand it correctly, it's a 4-year scholarship, so the school would be unable to apply Larry's unused scholarship for someone else who might need it - please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I think it's definitely an interesting idea, JJD, and maybe it will be something that's exploited within the next couple of years if Mike Williams does go high in the 2005 Draft. Those are the concerns I'd have with it, but then again I'm not staring a $27 million dollar signing bonus in the face. :)
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#18 Posted on 30.8.04 0713.40
Reposted on: 30.8.11 0714.18
    Originally posted by Whitebacon
    From April: http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/7241638


      TAMPA, Fla. (April 8, 2004) -- I attended Mike Williams' workout and sat with four other scouts at the finish line on his 40-yard dash. The clocks will be varied on his 40 time as they ranged from 4.57 to 4.60. As a result, most people feel he ran a time in the high 4.5s.

      Williams' short shuttle time was 4.30, he had a 37-inch vertical and a 10-foot-1 long jump. He was measured at 6-4 1/2 and 228 pounds, which is nine pounds lighter than he was 10 days ago. He's gotten lean and has been on a strict diet since he left Southern Cal.








4.57-4.60 is kinda slow for a CFL-type receiver. Believe it or not, most receivers in the CFL have 4.40 speed at most. However, after Ottawa lost to Edmonton yesterday by a score of 57-16, I'd welcome Mike Williams with open arms, since we can't get any worse with him on board.

Thanks for the info, Whitebacon.
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