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The 7 - Current Events & Politics - Swift Boat vets launch ad # 2
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CRZ
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#61 Posted on 26.8.04 0502.13
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0502.53
    Originally posted by jivesoulbro
    doing.

      John Kerry's remarks threw ever US serviceman in Vietnam under the bus for committing war crimes. Hell, he admtted to committing war crimes himself. I'd say that's a pretty damning and irresponsible statement...one that was used to torture US Prisoners of War.

    That's bullshit. He was recounting what the veterans in Michigan had told him they had done, and you'd know that if you listened to the full testimony.
Guys, if you don't have a matching number of "quote" and "/quote" tags in your text, NOBODY will be able to figure out who's saying what.

(uh, like here)

(edited by CRZ on 26.8.04 0507)
Grimis
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#62 Posted on 26.8.04 0652.28
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0653.16
    Originally posted by jivesoulbro
    That's bullshit. He was recounting what the veterans in Michigan had told him they had done, and you'd know that if you listened to the full testimony.
    Originally posted by John Kerry on the Dick Cavett Show, 6/30/1971
    Well, I have often talked about this subject. I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty.
And about Michigan....
    Originally posted by Paul Crespo om 8/21/2004
    While Kerry greatly exaggerates his abbreviated four-month Vietnam tour, many Vietnam veterans recall more painfully his later dishonest anti-war activism. During the infamous 1971 "Winter Soldier" investigation and congressional hearings, Kerry maliciously maligned all American servicemen in Vietnam as "war criminals" -- falsely claiming that they regularly committed atrocities.

    His group, Vietnam Veterans against the War, produced numerous "veterans" who testified against their fellow soldiers. The problem was that Kerry never witnessed any war crimes during his brief stint in Vietnam (except maybe his own). It was also proven that many of Kerry's Vietnam "veterans" were not veterans at all, and their tales of so-called atrocities were mostly fabrications.
Next...
jivesoulbro
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#63 Posted on 26.8.04 0804.48
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0805.19
Next? I don't know who Paul Crespo is, but he wrote that in the type of murky fashion that gets both sides in trouble for blurring the lines. Kind of the way that Moore tries to blur the lines between the Bush and Bin Laden families. Anyway, I don't think that proves anything. The LA Times and others reported over the weekend that Kerry was testifying about events that had been described to him by 150 honorably discharged vets at the Winters Soldiers Investigation, and not anything he witnessed himself. And I haven't yet seen any proof that he said during that testimony that all of them committed war crimes.

I think the testimony is important, and I'm sure my perspective would be different if I had fought in Vietnam or any other war. But he was 27 years old and in a very emotional period. Why don't we talk about what Bush was doing when he was 27? This is the same guy who, when questioned why he was driving drunk at age 30, chalked it up to being young and irresponsible. And while Kerry's testimony is serious stuff, so is drinking and driving, as many victims' families will tell you.
Grimis
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#64 Posted on 26.8.04 0813.29
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0813.29
The Winter Soldiers have been proven bogus by multiple sources; that just happened to be the first I could find.
    Originally posted by jivesoulbro
    Why don't we talk about what Bush was doing when he was 27? This is the same guy who, when questioned why he was driving drunk at age 30, chalked it up to being young and irresponsible. And while Kerry's testimony is serious stuff, so is drinking and driving, as many victims' families will tell you.
And I won't dispute that. But at least Bush has admitted his faults and changed his life.

Kerry, on the other hand, lied about all of it and then made it the centerpiece of his campaign.
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#65 Posted on 26.8.04 0827.28
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0828.30
Yup... good ol' GW must be behind these ads because someone on his legal team also advised a 527 group. That's disgusting.

Oh wait.

From the radical right wingers at ABC NEWS:


    ACT has been given at least $5 million by George Soros, who has also given $4,000 to Kerry over the years. Soros has also given $2.5 million to Moveon.org, which has run some of the harshest anti-Bush ads. At a star-studded event in New York City on Tuesday night, Moveon.org unveiled 14 new ads featuring actors and directors like Matt Damon, Scarlett Johansson, Kevin Bacon, Rob Reiner and Richard Linklater.

    Two of the Moevon.org ads that offended the Bush campaign in the past include one showing an image of the Statue of Liberty with a hood over its head, while an announcer explained, "Now it's been reported that Donald Rumsfeld initiated the plan that encouraged the physical coercion and sexual humiliation of prisoners."

    Another ad went after President Bush's history with the Texas Air National Guard, saying he "sailed to the top of a list, on his father's name, was trained as a pilot, but failed to show up for a required physical. He was grounded, wasn't seen for months, and then was released eight months early to go to Harvard Business School."

    Moveon.org's former organizing director, Zach Exley, now works for the Kerry campaign Web site, while DNC counsel Joe Sandler, also gives the group legal advice.


And that's the tip of the iceberg. To REALLY see how much of a "cheap shot" Kerry thinks ads like this are, read the first part about Howard Dean.
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#66 Posted on 26.8.04 0832.58
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0834.13
    Originally posted by jivesoulbro
    Next? I don't know who Paul Crespo is, but he wrote that in the type of murky fashion that gets both sides in trouble for blurring the lines. Kind of the way that Moore tries to blur the lines between the Bush and Bin Laden families. Anyway, I don't think that proves anything. The LA Times and others reported over the weekend that Kerry was testifying about events that had been described to him by 150 honorably discharged vets at the Winters Soldiers Investigation, and not anything he witnessed himself. And I haven't yet seen any proof that he said during that testimony that all of them committed war crimes.

    I think the testimony is important, and I'm sure my perspective would be different if I had fought in Vietnam or any other war. But he was 27 years old and in a very emotional period. Why don't we talk about what Bush was doing when he was 27? This is the same guy who, when questioned why he was driving drunk at age 30, chalked it up to being young and irresponsible. And while Kerry's testimony is serious stuff, so is drinking and driving, as many victims' families will tell you.


So, John Kerry never saw any War Crimes, and never committed any? He was just testifying what he had heard? No sworn affidavits? No first hand testimony? In other words, heresy?

Nice to go the old "what was George doing" route. Although I ask this, GWB was arrested or cited from drunk driving, which at the time was more acceptable to the general public than it is today. He didn't run off a bridge and let his passenger drown, like a Senator from Massachusetts that shall remain nameless. He got taken to jail, put in the drunk tank and let go the next day, as was the norm back then. His actions only hurt himself, and nobody else.

John Kerry, directly had an impact on how people perceived those coming home from the war. His highly publicized testimony got people like my uncle spit on. My uncle, who was a medic in the Army. Who was saving lives, both VC and US. HE gets spit on because people listen to John Kerry compare US Soldiers and sailors and Marines to "Jingess Khan". You tell me, who did more harm?
JayJayDean
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#67 Posted on 26.8.04 0843.55
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0844.45
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    So, John Kerry never saw any War Crimes, and never committed any? He was just testifying what he had heard? No sworn affidavits? No first hand testimony? In other words, heresy?


That's "hearsay".
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#68 Posted on 26.8.04 0856.05
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0856.48
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    That's "hearsay".
Leagally it is. I'm sure to some vets it is "heresy"...
StaggerLee
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#69 Posted on 26.8.04 0918.30
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0921.53
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      So, John Kerry never saw any War Crimes, and never committed any? He was just testifying what he had heard? No sworn affidavits? No first hand testimony? In other words, heresy?


    That's "hearsay".


Sorry, I spell checked it when I should have dictionary.com'd it!
dMr
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#70 Posted on 26.8.04 0926.16
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0926.16
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by jivesoulbro
      That's bullshit. He was recounting what the veterans in Michigan had told him they had done, and you'd know that if you listened to the full testimony.
      Originally posted by John Kerry on the Dick Cavett Show, 6/30/1971
      Well, I have often talked about this subject. I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, these acts are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the applications of the Nuremberg principles, is in fact guilty


    Grimis, what is your point. You originally said Kerry threw every US serviceman under the bus as you put it with his testimony. Jivesoulbro called bullshit. You attempt to contradict him by posting a Kerry quote where he DOESN'T accuse every US serviceman of commiting war crimes. He says anyone who carried out the acts he details(and admits to having done) was technically guilty. Explain.

      Originally posted by some bloke called Crespo
      The problem was that Kerry never witnessed any war crimes during his brief stint in Vietnam (except maybe his own). It was also proven that many of Kerry's Vietnam "veterans" were not veterans at all, and their tales of so-called atrocities were mostly fabrications.
    Next...


Hey, what do you know. Crespo's an exceedingly subjective source. You could knock me down with the smallest of feathers. Did it completely escape you that the quote you posted from Kerry contradicts what this guy says? Kerry said he didn't witness personal attrocities in the sense that he saw someones head get cut off. He DID however say he took part in other acts which WERE war crimes. I'm assuming you don't think he was implying he was involved in search and destroy missions all on his lonesome, ergo HE WITNESSED WAR CRIMES.

Thank you and good night.
Grimis
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#71 Posted on 26.8.04 0952.42
Reposted on: 26.8.11 0952.49
Watch the testimony yourself: C-SPAN, 8 PM EDT tonight. And C-Span does broadcast on the web...

    Originally posted by dMr
    Hey, what do you know. Crespo's an exceedingly subjective source. You could knock me down with the smallest of feathers. Did it completely escape you that the quote you posted from Kerry contradicts what this guy says? Kerry said he didn't witness personal attrocities in the sense that he saw someones head get cut off. He DID however say he took part in other acts which WERE war crimes. I'm assuming you don't think he was implying he was involved in search and destroy missions all on his lonesome, ergo HE WITNESSED WAR CRIMES.
That makes no bloody sense. Of course it contradicts what Kerry says because Kerry contradicts himself perpetually.

I don't think Kerry either saw or committed war crimes; mainly because Kerry had the propensity to make shit up as he went along for political gain.

(edited by Grimis on 26.8.04 1058)
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#72 Posted on 26.8.04 1018.35
Reposted on: 26.8.11 1018.50
    Originally posted by Grimis
    And I won't dispute that. But at least Bush has admitted his faults and changed his life.


The thing with that now is that Bush has gone to the other extreme. My biggest issue with Bush is his pandering to the religious right. He seems to feel bad for all his wildness in his youth so now he's overcompensating for it by becoming Mr. Holy Roller.

I've been voting for President since 88 and I've never voted for the democratic nominee. This is probably the closest I've even been to seriously considering casting my vote for a democrat for president.
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#73 Posted on 26.8.04 1151.14
Reposted on: 26.8.11 1153.40
    Originally posted by Grimis
    Watch the testimony yourself: C-SPAN, 8 PM EDT tonight. And C-Span does broadcast on the web...

      Originally posted by dMr
      Hey, what do you know. Crespo's an exceedingly subjective source. You could knock me down with the smallest of feathers. Did it completely escape you that the quote you posted from Kerry contradicts what this guy says? Kerry said he didn't witness personal attrocities in the sense that he saw someones head get cut off. He DID however say he took part in other acts which WERE war crimes. I'm assuming you don't think he was implying he was involved in search and destroy missions all on his lonesome, ergo HE WITNESSED WAR CRIMES.
    That makes no bloody sense. Of course it contradicts what Kerry says because Kerry contradicts himself perpetually.

    I don't think Kerry either saw or committed war crimes; mainly because Kerry had the propensity to make shit up as he went along for political gain.

    (edited by Grimis on 26.8.04 1058)


NONE of this is new. Kerry testified on this stuff years ago, and this is the best smear that Team Bush could dredge up? Sounds like Kerry's campaign isn't the one running scared....

Same stuff, different campaign. At least Rove isn't planting fake reporters to ask libelous questions of the candidate (or IS he??!!) :)
SKLOKAZOID
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#74 Posted on 26.8.04 1503.00
Reposted on: 26.8.11 1506.08
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the truth is. The object of a smear campaign is to distort people's perception of reality and make people question what they think they already know.

For Kerry to dispute and refute the claims right now isn't going to help him, which is why he is simply responding to the idea that the Bush campaign may be involved. He's trying to show us that he's willing to fight and not sit back.

The problem is, though, that Kerry may be fighting back too hard and aggressively. To file FEC complaints and other matters against the Bush campaign without solid evidence may show voters that he isn't attacking those responsible. It's like bombing a nation that didn't attack us. He may THINK he knows who is responsible, and may think that we see it, but ultimately isn't making his case well.

Kerry is on touchy ground here. He can't just ignore them, nor can he alter his campaign's approach to center around those ads. Kerry isn't necessarily making Vietnam the focus of his campaign (though the media makes it look that way), but he may have gone too far with things such as yesterday's publicity stunt.

When it comes to 527s, the problem is that Kerry has been addressing the content of specific 527s while Bush is trying to get rid of 527s all together. We'll see what happens.
Grimis
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#75 Posted on 26.8.04 1511.29
Reposted on: 26.8.11 1513.19
    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    The problem is, though, that Kerry may be fighting back too hard and aggressively. To file FEC complaints and other matters against the Bush campaign without solid evidence may show voters that he isn't attacking those responsible. It's like bombing a nation that didn't attack us. He may THINK he knows who is responsible, and may think that we see it, but ultimately isn't making his case well.
That is an interesting point, though I would tweak the argument a little. He is aggresively attacking the methods being used to deliver the message(and, by default those responsible) without actually responding well to the message. It, conceivably, could give voters the perception that the message is true and accurate and that Kerry is just whining about the way he got caught.

    Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID
    Kerry isn't necessarily making Vietnam the focus of his campaign (though the media makes it look that way), but he may have gone too far with things such as yesterday's publicity stunt.
I would disagree because everything for the last six weeks has been drapedi n the message of his military service.

Incidentally, I find it hilarious that the Bush campaign responded in kind and Cleland refused to accept the letter...
Corajudo
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#76 Posted on 26.8.04 2205.25
Reposted on: 26.8.11 2206.19
When it comes to 527s, the problem is that Kerry has been addressing the content of specific 527s while Bush is trying to get rid of 527s all together. We'll see what happens.

My understanding is that the 527s were either created or really given some teeth through McCain-Feingold. If so, and if Bush really had that much of an issue with them, why did he even sign the bill? That wouldn't have been the worst possible choice for a first veto, IMHO. It's especially ridiculous that he and McCain are trying to use the court system to stop these, given their stated opposition to judical activism.

BTW, has any president ever gone a full term without vetoing a single bill?
Grimis
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#77 Posted on 27.8.04 0810.20
Reposted on: 27.8.11 0810.39
    Originally posted by Corajudo
    BTW, has any president ever gone a full term without vetoing a single bill?
Yes, but it has been a very very long time...

And there are several bills that SHOULD have been vetoed(specifically McCain-Feigngold)
dMr
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#78 Posted on 27.8.04 1050.06
Reposted on: 27.8.11 1050.09
    Originally posted by Grimis
    I don't think Kerry either saw or committed war crimes; mainly because Kerry had the propensity to make shit up as he went along for political gain.

    (edited by Grimis on 26.8.04 1058)


THAT'S IT?! Well why didn't you just say so?

You posted the article from that lad Crespo as though it was some damning evidence that would lead us all to see Kerry lying scoundrel that you believe him to be. Really, all it was was one man's opinion. One man saying he didn't believe Kerry.

You went through the process of finding a quote from Kerry which failed to support your argument, and then 'backed it up' with some Republican bloke basically saying "I don't believe Kerry".

If you could at least attempt to explain to me why the word of this Crespo fellow should be of such importance to me I, and maybe a few others, may be inclined to listen. But as of right now the only Crespo I'm aware of is on loan from Chelsea to AC Milan, and frankly I'd put about as much stock in HIS opinion of Kerry.
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